(02-09-2016 12:43 AM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 11:53 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  I'm not too good for it. I just think that there should be sanctions for it.

The term "student-athlete" has been devalued so much over the years, and I'd like it to mean something again.

And yes, I know a lot of these NQ's come from very tough backgrounds. So do a lot of qualifiers, including ones at Rice.

Well if those problem (grades/test) kids gets a degree I think they are just as much a "student athlete" as any student at Rice.

Yes they pay their own way but for a lot of them the pell grant is doing the paying. And some will get extra help with scholarships for low income students. And I think most will get a tuition waver for being out of state students (counts as a lower in state student).

Any kid that can get into college ans works hard can overcome what ever their weakness was. I would much rather that kid get into school then get a degree and a decent job....

than what the average low income (most NQs comes from low income families) person does with their life without that college degree.

Yeah, I'm sure the schools take of them with a good financial aid package for their first year when they aren't playing football. Don't really have an issue with that.. Hell, the only reason we have any kind of scout team at Rice is because we can throw lots of financial aid for decent high school players who otherwise would be in fraternity at UT or A&M.

I have NEVER said that these NQ's shouldn't have the opportunity to better themselves and receive an education. What I am torn about is whether or not they should be able to play football/basketball/whatever. If you can't get above the NCAA qualification standards, which are pretty damn low, then I think you should focus on your school work.

This is why I propose some kind of penalty for playing NQ's... Not to bar them, but to discourage the practice.

They are paying a price...only 3 years of football where other kids have 4. Of course they have a chance to get that 4th year back and sitting out that first year without any football is suppose to do what you want (put all focus on their studies) and help with getting that 4th season back . To me this is no different than a kid that goes to a prep school for a year. In my opinion getting them in a college sitting and use to the surroundings is more helpful than a prep school then college life.

I just don't see the downside that some do or the need to punish the school. If it doesn't workout after a few years because the kid couldn't cut it...that will be the punishment for the school in a hit to the APR.

(02-08-2016 11:39 PM)MU42 Wrote:  The way it works is you enroll on your dime and can't participate with team or coaches in any way. After your first year if your academics are in order you then join the team. You have 3 years of eligibility left, but if you are on track to graduate you can earn a 4th year of eligibility.

No as the count towards a scholarship. My understanding is that they do not count against the numbers until they actually make the grades and start practicing.

I don't see why people ***** about this. This is one advantage we have over the P5. They take all the talent and 1-2 guys every year don't have the grades for whatever reason. If they go to a prep school or JUCO they could still end up at a P5, but if we take them as a NQ they will most likely be with us for the long haul. The P5 have about 99 advantages and we have 1, I'll take it even if some of you are to good for it. We will keep winning and you can keep whining.

because college football should be about college first, and football second. not the other way around.

(02-09-2016 01:07 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 11:39 PM)MU42 Wrote:  The way it works is you enroll on your dime and can't participate with team or coaches in any way. After your first year if your academics are in order you then join the team. You have 3 years of eligibility left, but if you are on track to graduate you can earn a 4th year of eligibility.

No as the count towards a scholarship. My understanding is that they do not count against the numbers until they actually make the grades and start practicing.

I don't see why people ***** about this. This is one advantage we have over the P5. They take all the talent and 1-2 guys every year don't have the grades for whatever reason. If they go to a prep school or JUCO they could still end up at a P5, but if we take them as a NQ they will most likely be with us for the long haul. The P5 have about 99 advantages and we have 1, I'll take it even if some of you are to good for it. We will keep winning and you can keep whining.

because college football should be about college first, and football second. not the other way around.

Should be, but college football hasn't been about college in years and probably won't ever be again.

edit: and honestly, was college football ever actually about college? Universities have been cheating forever to get athletes who wouldn't make it into the school. Same goes for Men's Bball.

And let's face it. You get rewarded for cheating. Look at Alabama: 10 seasons of probation in the past 25-26 years. That is 40% of the time...and that's just what has been caught. Here they are though playing for national championships every year. No one cares.

it's fairly straightforward. colleges could exist without college football. college football couldn't exist without colleges.

(02-09-2016 01:44 AM)EagleX Wrote:  it's fairly straightforward. colleges could exist without college football. college football couldn't exist without colleges.

There would just be an actual farm system/ b league for the NFL then, no learning required*.

Tech used to take NQs in the late 80's-early 90's. I remember Eager Eagle giving us a hard time about it. It seems that most of our better players were what we called "Props" back then. Troy Edwards was a Prop. It can be an advantage over teams who can't sign them. No way that Alabama LB signs with Marshall if they can't take NQs, for example.

(02-09-2016 07:58 AM)T_Won1 Wrote:  Tech used to take NQs in the late 80's-early 90's. I remember Eager Eagle giving us a hard time about it. It seems that most of our better players were what we called "Props" back then. Troy Edwards was a Prop. It can be an advantage over teams who can't sign them. No way that Alabama LB signs with Marshall if they can't take NQs, for example.

He might start for us next year. Sure he needs to bring his ACT score up. But as long as he does he will not be a NQ.

(02-09-2016 01:25 AM)Shrack Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 01:07 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 11:39 PM)MU42 Wrote:  The way it works is you enroll on your dime and can't participate with team or coaches in any way. After your first year if your academics are in order you then join the team. You have 3 years of eligibility left, but if you are on track to graduate you can earn a 4th year of eligibility.

No as the count towards a scholarship. My understanding is that they do not count against the numbers until they actually make the grades and start practicing.

I don't see why people ***** about this. This is one advantage we have over the P5. They take all the talent and 1-2 guys every year don't have the grades for whatever reason. If they go to a prep school or JUCO they could still end up at a P5, but if we take them as a NQ they will most likely be with us for the long haul. The P5 have about 99 advantages and we have 1, I'll take it even if some of you are to good for it. We will keep winning and you can keep whining.

because college football should be about college first, and football second. not the other way around.

Should be, but college football hasn't been about college in years and probably won't ever be again.

edit: and honestly, was college football ever actually about college? Universities have been cheating forever to get athletes who wouldn't make it into the school. Same goes for Men's Bball.

And let's face it. You get rewarded for cheating. Look at Alabama: 10 seasons of probation in the past 25-26 years. That is 40% of the time...and that's just what has been caught. Here they are though playing for national championships every year. No one cares.

That's a broad stroke or generalization. Is it pervasive? Sure, but not all schools think like this. Not all coaches think like this. Some still have respect for themselves. Not every school is like FSU. And not every coach is like Pitino.

For the record, Middle Tennessee does not take NQ's.

We have the option to do so on a case by case basis, but to my knowledge we have not taken any in the past 10 years.

Our view is the NCAA qualification standards are already so low that if you can't meet them you probably don't have much chance of staying eligible taking a full college course load. That is unless the university has created a curriculum just for athletes where the toughest course is basket weaving, but we don't have one of those either.

IMO, the NCAA and NFL should get together to form a development league of sorts for professional football.

It's true a lot of these kids only go to college to play sports. It would be great for the kids who are really athletically talented but perhaps not quite ready yet for higher education to have another option.

Let them try to develop for the pros as a professional not a college student. While competing in this development league not only will they earn cash and do so outside of the academic environment but trusts could be established so that once the young men either decide they are done or otherwise can't make it to the NFL then they have access to scholarships where they can come back and get a college degree - if they so choose - and it's primarily already paid for through NCAA and NFL grants. This model is already pretty well tested. The GI Bill isn't all that dissimilar from this idea.

This would solve a lot of problems, be good for the universities, and be good for the athletes.

And they get rewarded for winning national championships for pushing the cheating boundary, while G5 schools are just hoping to get to 6 wins because they are to good to take a NQ, which is allowed by the NCAA.

Again one advantage over the p5, I'll take it.

(02-09-2016 07:54 AM)benny_t Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 01:44 AM)EagleX Wrote:  it's fairly straightforward. colleges could exist without college football. college football couldn't exist without colleges.

There would just be an actual farm system/ b league for the NFL then, no learning required*.

which would no longer be called "college football". so, my point remains.

(02-08-2016 09:43 PM)usmbacker Wrote:  USM doesn't. I didn't think the NCAA allowed partials. Somehow Marshall is able to do it.

NQ's have all graduated in good standing from their High Schools. The problem with NQ's is they didn't get thier ACT or SAT test scores to get into the schools that wanted to sign them. Marshall requires a 21 on the ACT for admittance.
An NQ is required to enroll on their own and pay their own way. The must show academic progress their freshmen year before they are put on scholarship. They are not allowed to practice with the team or participate in team activities.

Now, compare that to a kid that goes Juco or Prep because he doesn't have the test scores. Juco and Prep are thinly veiled sports factories that have very little academic value in order for the kid to get his grades; allowing him to be recruited again because of the middle school level classes in Juco or Prep.
The state of Mississippi has a very poor Juco system academically that was pretty much blown up by SI a few years ago. The article in SI found that kids rarely went to class and when they did, it was taught usually by their coach.
So you tell me, which kid is really getting a better education?

Secondly, it is widely known and practiced that a D1 school will tell a kid to go Juco or Prep and then sign them after they get their grades in order. Other than Rice, there is NO school in this league that hasn't done that at some point, possibly in this latest class of signees.
Go to the USC Gamecock board - there is a two page thread about them signing kids they know can't get into that school and then sending them to Juco.

Charlotte will likely sign the WV Football player of the year next week as a NQ because he was denied by WVU, which uses much the same standards as Marshall.

To say Marshall is doing something illegal or immoral is delusional and grossly misinformed. Read up on it before you spout stupidity.

I really do not think the issue is accepting NQ's....My issue is once they arrive at a college what is actually being done to get them "qualified". It is my understanding that all that they have to prove to get qualified by NCAA at that point is that they are meeting the matriculation standards of any other player.

IMHO that sets up an opportunity for some schools to maybe "fudge" some things to get these kids qualified. That process just tempts schools to maybe do things for these athletes that is not being done for the general populations of students.

Some schools have a very high percentage of these NQs qualifying the following season while some other schools have a terrible track record of getting kids like this qualified. Why is this??????

My point is once they arrive on campus as a NQ it is not apples to apples at each school from an academic standpoint with some schools setting up special curriculum programs designed to get these kids qualified and we all know what that involves.

Personally I do not think any school that wants them to play ball should be able to bring them in and be the ones to assist them in qualifying...Just too much incentive to maybe do things a little different for these kids and sacrifice academic standards for athletics.

(02-09-2016 09:09 AM)ECU-DMB Fanatic Wrote:  I really do not think the issue is accepting NQ's....My issue is once they arrive at a college what is actually being done to get them "qualified". It is my understanding that all that they have to prove to get qualified by NCAA at that point is that they are meeting the matriculation standards of any other player.

IMHO that sets up an opportunity for some schools to maybe "fudge" some things to get these kids qualified. That process just tempts schools to maybe do things for these athletes that is not being done for the general populations of students.

Some schools have a very high percentage of these NQs qualifying the following season while some other schools have a terrible track record of getting kids like this qualified. Why is this??????

My point is once they arrive on campus as a NQ it is not apples to apples at each school from an academic standpoint with some schools setting up special curriculum programs designed to get these kids qualified and we all know what that involves.

Personally I do not think any school that wants them to play ball should be able to bring them in and be the ones to assist them in qualifying...Just too much incentive to maybe do things a little different for these kids and sacrifice academic standards for athletics.

In Marshall's case - we have the HELP program which is a tutoring and academic assistance program open to all students. This program was recognized about 5 years ago by the CFA and College Coaches association for its exemplary work.
I can assure you, MU doesn't try any funny business. Our past dealings with the NCAA have made us a squeaky clean program.

Funny, I don't see such criticism when schools load up on Jucos like USM has done or accept P5 transfers because said transfer has been kicked off their team for an arrest, domestic violence, DUI, etc. Transgressions that I consider MUCH worse than not being able to get your ACT score up. Talk about misguided priorities.

We don't cheat like UNC.

(02-09-2016 09:09 AM)ECU-DMB Fanatic Wrote:  I really do not think the issue is accepting NQ's....My issue is once they arrive at a college what is actually being done to get them "qualified". It is my understanding that all that they have to prove to get qualified by NCAA at that point is that they are meeting the matriculation standards of any other player.

IMHO that sets up an opportunity for some schools to maybe "fudge" some things to get these kids qualified. That process just tempts schools to maybe do things for these athletes that is not being done for the general populations of students.

Some schools have a very high percentage of these NQs qualifying the following season while some other schools have a terrible track record of getting kids like this qualified. Why is this??????

My point is once they arrive on campus as a NQ it is not apples to apples at each school from an academic standpoint with some schools setting up special curriculum programs designed to get these kids qualified and we all know what that involves.

Personally I do not think any school that wants them to play ball should be able to bring them in and be the ones to assist them in qualifying...Just too much incentive to maybe do things a little different for these kids and sacrifice academic standards for athletics.

I do a have a problem with a school taking NQ because of the potential of "abuse" by the school getting the athlete eligible. It is an ethical issue.

A school should have some academic integrity if it is taking fees from students. Usually when a college is selective, the more value there is in the degree. A degree from Rice or UVA carries more value than a degree from ECU or Marshall.

I can see a college helping a student with true learning disabilities obtain an education. When a student doesn't have learning disabilities and just doesn't have the grades or test scores; the student needs to go an to outside source to obtain the requirements for entrance. College is not for everyone in the world.

(02-09-2016 09:29 AM)SVHerd Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 09:09 AM)ECU-DMB Fanatic Wrote:  I really do not think the issue is accepting NQ's....My issue is once they arrive at a college what is actually being done to get them "qualified". It is my understanding that all that they have to prove to get qualified by NCAA at that point is that they are meeting the matriculation standards of any other player.

IMHO that sets up an opportunity for some schools to maybe "fudge" some things to get these kids qualified. That process just tempts schools to maybe do things for these athletes that is not being done for the general populations of students.

Some schools have a very high percentage of these NQs qualifying the following season while some other schools have a terrible track record of getting kids like this qualified. Why is this??????

My point is once they arrive on campus as a NQ it is not apples to apples at each school from an academic standpoint with some schools setting up special curriculum programs designed to get these kids qualified and we all know what that involves.

Personally I do not think any school that wants them to play ball should be able to bring them in and be the ones to assist them in qualifying...Just too much incentive to maybe do things a little different for these kids and sacrifice academic standards for athletics.

In Marshall's case - we have the HELP program which is a tutoring and academic assistance program open to all students. This program was recognized about 5 years ago by the CFA and College Coaches association for its exemplary work.
I can assure you, MU doesn't try any funny business. Our past dealings with the NCAA have made us a squeaky clean program.

Funny, I don't see such criticism when schools load up on Jucos like USM has done or accept P5 transfers because said transfer has been kicked off their team for an arrest, domestic violence, DUI, etc. Transgressions that I consider MUCH worse than not being able to get your ACT score up. Talk about misguided priorities.

We don't cheat like UNC.

That is cool...Personally I am glad East Carolina is out of the business of NQs. We never took too many of them and when we did most all of them were from the state of NC but we always caught crap from the ACC schools about it, especially when we would beat them. Now we no longer give them that excuse...It has been 4 or so years since our last NQ.

For me is is just easier to not have to deal with the entire mess and stigma surrounded by taking them. Also once had an ECU Head Coach tell me they made the entire recruiting situation way more complicated. He stated it was hard to properly account for these kids because you never knew which ones would make it or not and all the sudden you either had too many scholarships promised or ended up short in certain areas depending on how many did not make it....He was the one that basically stopped taking them even when we still could.

(02-09-2016 09:51 AM)Flat Tire 2 Wrote:  

(02-09-2016 09:09 AM)ECU-DMB Fanatic Wrote:  I really do not think the issue is accepting NQ's....My issue is once they arrive at a college what is actually being done to get them "qualified". It is my understanding that all that they have to prove to get qualified by NCAA at that point is that they are meeting the matriculation standards of any other player.

IMHO that sets up an opportunity for some schools to maybe "fudge" some things to get these kids qualified. That process just tempts schools to maybe do things for these athletes that is not being done for the general populations of students.

Some schools have a very high percentage of these NQs qualifying the following season while some other schools have a terrible track record of getting kids like this qualified. Why is this??????

My point is once they arrive on campus as a NQ it is not apples to apples at each school from an academic standpoint with some schools setting up special curriculum programs designed to get these kids qualified and we all know what that involves.

Personally I do not think any school that wants them to play ball should be able to bring them in and be the ones to assist them in qualifying...Just too much incentive to maybe do things a little different for these kids and sacrifice academic standards for athletics.

I do a have a problem with a school taking NQ because of the potential of "abuse" by the school getting the athlete eligible. It is an ethical issue.

A school should have some academic integrity if it is taking fees from students. Usually when a college is selective, the more value there is in the degree. A degree from Rice or UVA carries more value than a degree from ECU or Marshall.

I can see a college helping a student with true learning disabilities obtain an education. When a student doesn't have learning disabilities and just doesn't have the grades or test scores; the student needs to go an to outside source to obtain the requirements for entrance. College is not for everyone in the world.

Hold on...You can leave ECU out of this deal. We do not take NQs and have not done so for many years now. Even when we did it was in very small numbers.

(02-09-2016 09:07 AM)SVHerd Wrote:  

(02-08-2016 09:43 PM)usmbacker Wrote:  USM doesn't. I didn't think the NCAA allowed partials. Somehow Marshall is able to do it.

NQ's have all graduated in good standing from their High Schools. The problem with NQ's is they didn't get thier ACT or SAT test scores to get into the schools that wanted to sign them. Marshall requires a 21 on the ACT for admittance.
An NQ is required to enroll on their own and pay their own way.

I've always wondered this, so are you saying a NQ for football would be admitted to the university (with a 20 on their ACT) but a regular (non athlete) student would be denied with the same test scores (20 on their ACT)? If that is true, that doesn't seem right...but maybe I'm misunderstanding it.

So what did we find out here, is Marshall the only school in CUSA who takes NQ's? Someone mentioned Charlotte (taking a WV kid)...but most every other fan of other schools in this thread has denied taking them.

Schools in CUSA who take NQ's:

Marshall
(so who else? Can we definitively add to the list...?)