A pretty good article from Nate Silver and the 538 blog. It's very long though.

What Went Wrong In Flint

It's a damn shame.

I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

This!!! Why anyone wants to give more money and power to an entity that time and again demonstrates its ineptitude??

(02-03-2016 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

So, if the private business doesn't do a good job, you can go to another business that does it better - that or the crappy business fails and goes belly up.

With government, when they fail, there is no other alternative and all that happens is they come back to the public for more money to p!ss away. The biggest problem with government is they have no incentive to be efficient or provide good service......so they rarely do.

Is it still the Republicans fault?

(02-03-2016 08:01 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

So, if the private business doesn't do a good job, you can go to another business that does it better - that or the crappy business fails and goes belly up.

With government, when they fail, there is no other alternative and all that happens is they come back to the public for more money to p!ss away. The biggest problem with government is they have no incentive to be efficient or provide good service......so they rarely do.

So you prefer no government over an inefficient one? The problem is that very few companies would be able or willing to do something of this magnitude with out significant compensation that would leave most people unable to afford drinking water. This is why we need government.

Government doesn't take "significant compensation"?

Government always cost more than what business could offer the same for.

(02-03-2016 09:18 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 08:01 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

So, if the private business doesn't do a good job, you can go to another business that does it better - that or the crappy business fails and goes belly up.

With government, when they fail, there is no other alternative and all that happens is they come back to the public for more money to p!ss away. The biggest problem with government is they have no incentive to be efficient or provide good service......so they rarely do.

So you prefer no government over an inefficient one? The problem is that very few companies would be able or willing to do something of this magnitude with out significant compensation that would leave most people unable to afford drinking water. This is why we need government.

Yes Fit, there are things that government should/does. We also find far too often they suck and bumble their way along. Flint is just the latest example. The last one I recall is the "gold colored river" the EPA effed up out west.

(02-03-2016 05:56 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  A pretty good article from Nate Silver and the 538 blog. It's very long though.

What Went Wrong In Flint

GM stopped building cars there....

(02-03-2016 05:56 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  A pretty good article from Nate Silver and the 538 blog. It's very long though.

What Went Wrong In Flint

Doesn't explain why the system dropped the two bad samples instead of further investigation which would have revealed the severity of the problems.

Also doesn't talk about why they skipped the short-term contract with Detroit after Detroit cancelled on them. Implication is that Detroit was trying to screw them for working on their own pipeline, but they don't really say.

Ultimately, its the testing group that ignored data that lead to all the problems. Anecdotal evidence tells you nothing, so it got ignored.

(02-03-2016 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

I thought the emergency manager was needed by law because the city declared bankruptcy.

And, for the record, pretty much everyone who works in the government is doing for profit, a paycheck. Unions are repping people in the govt for profit, their dues.

(02-03-2016 09:18 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So you prefer no government over an inefficient one?

I didn't say that in the least.

(02-03-2016 09:18 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The problem is that very few companies would be able or willing to do something of this magnitude with out significant compensation that would leave most people unable to afford drinking water. This is why we need government.

There are some jobs that government just plain does better. And in some cases, arguably, they have a good case. Defense? Sure. Courts? Yep. Law Enforcement? Sure, usually. Big infrastructure? Well, if Flint is illustrative then perhaps not......

But it’s more and more fiction that a government choked with special interests, minor bureaucrats motivated by power, and politicians who crave votes can actually plan anything better than private America. See Space-X as an example.

Everything is wrong with Flint...

(02-03-2016 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 06:48 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I look at things like Flint, and Obamacare, and Lerner, and Hilary's emails and time and time again, we see egregious examples of government failure, even cultures of failure, and demonstrated incompetence that would land a corporation (well, maybe a small business owner / eyeroll) in serious legal trouble or maybe even put people in jail, but when the government does it we just get

¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

I struggle mightily to understand why people continue to support having the government control as much as the government does.

Probably because people don't trust private business to do much better. Often times, business is only concerned with profit and saving money which is why bringing in an emergency manger was a bad idea in the first place.

So you think government is more accountable than private business? Tell me who is going to 'fire' the government for failing to properly do their job? What recourse do taxpayers have to replace the government that is in control of Flint?

(02-04-2016 10:19 AM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-03-2016 09:18 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So you prefer no government over an inefficient one?

I didn't say that in the least.

(02-03-2016 09:18 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The problem is that very few companies would be able or willing to do something of this magnitude with out significant compensation that would leave most people unable to afford drinking water. This is why we need government.

There are some jobs that government just plain does better. And in some cases, arguably, they have a good case. Defense? Sure. Courts? Yep. Law Enforcement? Sure, usually. Big infrastructure? Well, if Flint is illustrative then perhaps not......

But it’s more and more fiction that a government choked with special interests, minor bureaucrats motivated by power, and politicians who crave votes can actually plan anything better than private America. See Space-X as an example.

Are we talking about the same company that is launching from the government built space port?

(02-04-2016 01:40 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Are we talking about the same company that is launching from the government built space port?

I did say "Big Infrastructure" is a probable good role of Government.

(02-04-2016 01:49 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(02-04-2016 01:40 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Are we talking about the same company that is launching from the government built space port?

I did say "Big Infrastructure" is a probable good role of Government.

Yes you did. And I tend to agree.