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Big 12 Expansion Article
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Afflicted Offline
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Post: #121
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

Hopefully they take all four
12-11-2015 09:54 AM
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loki_the_bubba Offline
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Post: #122
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

Is there proof of that? Or just rumors?
12-11-2015 10:02 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #123
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 09:54 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

Hopefully they take all four

Why? That would be terrible for Rice. Sure, it would leave more openings in the AAC ... but the conference would be significantly weakend with the departure of those 4 schools, to the point where it would be less of an upgrade over current CUSA.

I wish UH the best. Maybe the Big XII is cosidering another Texas school because they are feeling threatened by the SEC's incursion with A&M and want more Big XII exposure in the eastern part of the state. Good for UH if they make it, they have done what they needed to do so far.

I'd gladly be in a conference with Memphis again. My best friend from Rice (that I didn't marry at least) is in Memphis and I could shame him into going to some games and joining Owl Club!
12-11-2015 12:23 PM
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Post: #124
Big 12 Expansion Article
12-11-2015 01:26 PM
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Post: #125
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

The Big 12 "Expansion Committee"? Who was on that?
12-11-2015 01:34 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #126
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
Again, some conference is not going to swoop down and magically, mysteriously decide that it needs Rice as a member. If we are going anywhere, it will have to be the old-fashioned way, by earning it. 3-9, 10-3, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, 10-4, 8-5, 5-7, doesn't get us there.
12-11-2015 02:35 PM
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sts60 Offline
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Post: #127
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
I think we should pressure the Big 12 by telling them they'd better invite us before the Mountain West Conference snaps us up.
12-11-2015 02:53 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #128
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 02:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Again, some conference is not going to swoop down and magically, mysteriously decide that it needs Rice as a member. If we are going anywhere, it will have to be the old-fashioned way, by earning it. 3-9, 10-3, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, 10-4, 8-5, 5-7, doesn't get us there.

As you know, football success isn't the only indicator. Obviously Rice's football performance isn't a big positive and football attendance is a big negative, but I think we're still in a better spot than during the last round of realignment.

Building the EZF, tennis facility, and soccer/track facility help show that Rice is more committed to athletics then was true during the last realignment. Baseball continues to be a positive (especially if the AAC loses UH), and basketball seems to be in a much better place then a few years ago. And most importantly, Rice is still located in Houston. Still lots of work to do, of course.
12-11-2015 02:56 PM
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Post: #129
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 12:23 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:54 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

Hopefully they take all four

Why? That would be terrible for Rice. Sure, it would leave more openings in the AAC ... but the conference would be significantly weakend with the departure of those 4 schools, to the point where it would be less of an upgrade over current CUSA.

I wish UH the best. Maybe the Big XII is cosidering another Texas school because they are feeling threatened by the SEC's incursion with A&M and want more Big XII exposure in the eastern part of the state. Good for UH if they make it, they have done what they needed to do so far.

I'd gladly be in a conference with Memphis again. My best friend from Rice (that I didn't marry at least) is in Memphis and I could shame him into going to some games and joining Owl Club!

I'm a dreamer. I'm for anything that leads to the CUSA West members forming a new conference with SMU, Tulsa, and Tulane.
12-11-2015 05:48 PM
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Post: #130
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 05:48 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  I'm a dreamer. I'm for anything that leads to the CUSA West members forming a new conference with SMU, Tulsa, and Tulane.

Nice! You'll be delighted to wake up when TV ratings & revenues, alumni numbers and game attendance aren't factors in sustaining college athletics conferences.
12-11-2015 11:32 PM
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Mademen Offline
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Post: #131
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 01:34 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

The Big 12 "Expansion Committee"? Who was on that?

David Boren, President of OU, Gordon Gee, president of West Virginia, Ken Starr repping Baylor.
12-15-2015 07:36 PM
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Post: #132
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-15-2015 07:36 PM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 01:34 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

The Big 12 "Expansion Committee"? Who was on that?

David Boren, President of OU, Gordon Gee, president of West Virginia, Ken Starr repping Baylor.

If Texas Tech, Baylor, etc welcome another Texas school, Rice could make more sense as to recruiting, and bringing something new to the table, with strong academics. It's been said before. Pac 12 has Stanford, Big Ten has Northwestern, SEC has Vandy, the Big 12 could have Rice. Also, other P5 conferences may want to look at a combo like, say, Rice and SMU, to expand its reach to Texas (even if UH goes to B12). Why did the Big Ten add Rutgers? Is their athletic program even as good as Rice's? If Rice were to make a monetary commitment it could purchase its way onto a P5, or at least be considered. If stories of how Rice almost got into the SEC in the 80's (or early 90's not sure) are to be believed, money was the condition. Rice's history of losing and weak fan support were not what broke that deal. Of course, that was decades ago, but I don't think it works that differently today.
12-15-2015 10:16 PM
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Post: #133
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-15-2015 10:16 PM)Buho00 Wrote:  
(12-15-2015 07:36 PM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 01:34 PM)Middle Ages Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 09:16 AM)Mademen Wrote:  
(12-10-2015 11:28 PM)Converted Rice Wrote:  Schools I hear are Memphis and Cincinnati. I would be shocked if Texas,Tech, TCU, and Baylor would welcome another Texas school.

The Big 12 expansion committee visited UH, UConn, and Cinci. Memphis has no chance.

The Big 12 "Expansion Committee"? Who was on that?

David Boren, President of OU, Gordon Gee, president of West Virginia, Ken Starr repping Baylor.

If Texas Tech, Baylor, etc welcome another Texas school, Rice could make more sense as to recruiting, and bringing something new to the table, with strong academics. It's been said before. Pac 12 has Stanford, Big Ten has Northwestern, SEC has Vandy, the Big 12 could have Rice. Also, other P5 conferences may want to look at a combo like, say, Rice and SMU, to expand its reach to Texas (even if UH goes to B12). Why did the Big Ten add Rutgers? Is their athletic program even as good as Rice's? If Rice were to make a monetary commitment it could purchase its way onto a P5, or at least be considered. If stories of how Rice almost got into the SEC in the 80's (or early 90's not sure) are to be believed, money was the condition. Rice's history of losing and weak fan support were not what broke that deal. Of course, that was decades ago, but I don't think it works that differently today.

The Big 10 added Rutgers for its NY/NJ media market presence (albeit certainly not a majority of that market), as well as the fact that Big 10 wants a recruiting foothold in the state of New Jersey, which has a large amount of football prospects. Rutgers also has shown a financial commitment to its football program beyond what Rice has.
12-15-2015 11:13 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #134
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
Just saw that UH's freshman applications are up 12% from last year at this time.
12-16-2015 12:03 AM
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Post: #135
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-11-2015 02:56 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 02:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Again, some conference is not going to swoop down and magically, mysteriously decide that it needs Rice as a member. If we are going anywhere, it will have to be the old-fashioned way, by earning it. 3-9, 10-3, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, 10-4, 8-5, 5-7, doesn't get us there.

As you know, football success isn't the only indicator. Obviously Rice's football performance isn't a big positive and football attendance is a big negative, but I think we're still in a better spot than during the last round of realignment.

Building the EZF, tennis facility, and soccer/track facility help show that Rice is more committed to athletics then was true during the last realignment. Baseball continues to be a positive (especially if the AAC loses UH), and basketball seems to be in a much better place then a few years ago. And most importantly, Rice is still located in Houston. Still lots of work to do, of course.

Why would a prospective conference care about "commitment to athletics" or "baseball"? It is fair to assume that they would care about revenue -- full stop. In order for Rice to add revenue to a prospective conference, it needs a lot more fan following in football and men's basketball AND a lot more success in those sports.

To the extent that any P5 conference already has a small private university, that is assuredly by historical accident, not by current design -- nor is it evidence of interest in adding another one.
12-16-2015 12:17 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-16-2015 12:17 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 02:56 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 02:35 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Again, some conference is not going to swoop down and magically, mysteriously decide that it needs Rice as a member. If we are going anywhere, it will have to be the old-fashioned way, by earning it. 3-9, 10-3, 2-10, 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, 10-4, 8-5, 5-7, doesn't get us there.

As you know, football success isn't the only indicator. Obviously Rice's football performance isn't a big positive and football attendance is a big negative, but I think we're still in a better spot than during the last round of realignment.

Building the EZF, tennis facility, and soccer/track facility help show that Rice is more committed to athletics then was true during the last realignment. Baseball continues to be a positive (especially if the AAC loses UH), and basketball seems to be in a much better place then a few years ago. And most importantly, Rice is still located in Houston. Still lots of work to do, of course.

Why would a prospective conference care about "commitment to athletics" or "baseball"? It is fair to assume that they would care about revenue -- full stop. In order for Rice to add revenue to a prospective conference, it needs a lot more fan following in football and men's basketball AND a lot more success in those sports.

To the extent that any P5 conference already has a small private university, that is assuredly by historical accident, not by current design -- nor is it evidence of interest in adding another one.

I think you could easily argue that a university's tangible commitment to its athletics indicates they are working to grow revenues and would be less of a risk to be dead weight. Back in the last round, there was no outward indication that we were trying to grow revenues and we appeared to be a liability. And if you read all of the articles about the expansion talks that we drove, most articles mentioned the 3/4 winning years and pretty much framed the conversation such that it appeared like this year was an off year in regards to results. Not sure if the conference has the same perspective, but that is what I got from the sports media.

Per an article I read, it actually sounds like MBB is what would hold us back in joining the MWC since team quality is so much more important to the post-season picture, and we would currently be a drag on the conference's rating.
12-16-2015 07:00 AM
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Post: #137
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-10-2015 07:01 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Even sandwich boards have changed with the times. They've been replaced by professional sign twirlers. Can Rice be that agile? 02-13-banana

Let's go get this guy! I know where to find him:


12-16-2015 07:39 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #138
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-16-2015 12:17 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  To the extent that any P5 conference already has a small private university, that is assuredly by historical accident, not by current design -- nor is it evidence of interest in adding another one.

Actually, I've been told many times that it is intentional, and for a legal reason.

Although nothing in this area has ever, to my knowledge, been litigated (and somebody please correct me if I am wrong), the prevailing legal opinion has been that if a conference has all public school members, then the conference itself could be considered a governmental entity subject to the due process clause of the14th Amendment, but if one member is private, then the conference is not. I don't know how good that theory is, and I have my doubts it would hold up, but it has been treated as a safe harbor.

That's why at least all of the big leagues have at least one private member. They don't want to have to met all the due process rules when they are splitting up the big bucks, and it is pretty clear that in many instances regarding finance and discipline they don't follow them. I recall some discussion about Northwestern leaving the Big-10 a number of years ago (before they turned football around) where this was a key sticking point. SEC has Vandy, Pac-12 has Stanford and USC, Big-10 has Northwestern (plus Rutgers is a public-private hybrid), XII has Baylor and TCU, ACC has BC, Duke, Miami, Syracuse, and Wake (plus Pitt is a public-private hybrid).

At the mid-major level, it's a bit of a different story. AAC has SMU, Tulane, and Tulsa, but Rice is now the only private school in CUSA, and MWC (since BYU left), MAC, and Sunbelt have none. Apparently, it's not as big an issue when the bucks aren't as big, or maybe they just can't find any suitable private mates. If there is any weight to be attached to this theory, it would make Rice more attractive to the MWC than to the AAC.

As for the interest of adding another, there has also been some discussion that leagues which split into divisions would be in a safer harbor with one private school in each division. Pac-10 supposedly considered this when they split the California schools between north and south rather than putting Colorado and Utah in the north. There has also been some discussion that this was a factor with Rutgers and the Big-10, although that was probably more about the NYC Metro market and I'm not sure how sketchy it would be to depend on a semi-private university for your private "cover." It was supposedly one reason for the SEC's one-time interest in Rice. ACC has multiple privates in both divisions, so this is obviously no big deal to them. The XII doesn't have divisions, so it's not now a factor. If they go to divisions, it will be interesting to see if they split Baylor and TCU. AAC did not follow this in assigning their divisions.

I don't think this would ever be a "King's X" factor, but I have certainly been told many times by knowledgeable persons that it is a real consideration.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2015 09:16 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-16-2015 09:03 AM
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Post: #139
RE: Big 12 Expansion Article
(12-16-2015 09:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(12-16-2015 12:17 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  To the extent that any P5 conference already has a small private university, that is assuredly by historical accident, not by current design -- nor is it evidence of interest in adding another one.

Actually, I've been told many times that it is intentional, and for a legal reason.

Although nothing in this area has ever, to my knowledge, been litigated (and somebody please correct me if I am wrong), the prevailing legal opinion has been that if a conference has all public school members, then the conference itself could be considered a governmental entity subject to the due process clause of the14th Amendment, but if one member is private, then the conference is not. I don't know how good that theory is, and I have my doubts it would hold up, but it has been treated as a safe harbor.

That's why at least all of the big leagues have at least one private member. They don't want to have to met all the due process rules when they are splitting up the big bucks, and it is pretty clear that in many instances regarding finance and discipline they don't follow them. I recall some discussion about Northwestern leaving the Big-10 a number of years ago (before they turned football around) where this was a key sticking point. SEC has Vandy, Pac-12 has Stanford and USC, Big-10 has Northwestern (plus Rutgers is a public-private hybrid), XII has Baylor and TCU, ACC has BC, Duke, Miami, Syracuse, and Wake (plus Pitt is a public-private hybrid).

At the mid-major level, it's a bit of a different story. AAC has SMU, Tulane, and Tulsa, but Rice is now the only private school in CUSA, and MWC (since BYU left), MAC, and Sunbelt have none. Apparently, it's not as big an issue when the bucks aren't as big, or maybe they just can't find any suitable private mates. If there is any weight to be attached to this theory, it would make Rice more attractive to the MWC than to the AAC.

As for the interest of adding another, there has also been some discussion that leagues which split into divisions would be in a safer harbor with one private school in each division. Pac-10 supposedly considered this when they split the California schools between north and south rather than putting Colorado and Utah in the north. There has also been some discussion that this was a factor with Rutgers and the Big-10, although that was probably more about the NYC Metro market and I'm not sure how sketchy it would be to depend on a semi-private university for your private "cover." It was supposedly one reason for the SEC's one-time interest in Rice. ACC has multiple privates in both divisions, so this is obviously no big deal to them. The XII doesn't have divisions, so it's not now a factor. If they go to divisions, it will be interesting to see if they split Baylor and TCU. AAC did not follow this in assigning their divisions.

I don't think this would ever be a "King's X" factor, but I have certainly been told many times by knowledgeable persons that it is a real consideration.

I've definitely heard all of that as well. I think a few years ago they had an article during SEC media days about Vandy doing a lot of the financials? Or maybe they put the Vandy AD in a certain spot for the conference so they don't have to disclose certain figures. I'll see if I can find it.
12-16-2015 09:22 AM
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Big 12 Expansion Article
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12-16-2015 09:30 AM
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