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OT: NFL Quality of play down
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C2__ Offline
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OT: NFL Quality of play down
10-28-2015 05:33 AM
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goofus Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
I think that ever since free agency and salary cap started in the 90's, NFL. teams have just played poorly for the first 6 weeks of the season.

Then play typically improves the last 10 games and thats when you find out who the good NFL teams really are that season.
10-28-2015 05:57 AM
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C2__ Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
I think the inability to launch at players is what has hurt the game tremendously, though understandably.
10-28-2015 06:39 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 05:33 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfls...li=AAa0dzB

Anyone agree with the article?

Easily. The two best teams right now, the Patriots and Packers, aren't anywhere near the quality of the best teams of 20 years ago.

The 1992-1995 Cowboys and 49ers were far, far better than each. If you compare today's Packers with the 90s Cowboys, the only positions that favor the Packers is QB, and by the slightest margin. Everywhere else, the Cowboys are better.

With the Patriots, the only positions are QB (again, marginally) and tight end. Everywhere else, the Cowboys are better.

Free Agency/Sal Cap has made this a coach-QB league, with all the other parts being interchangeable. You don't have the mighty, star-cluttered teams of the past.
10-28-2015 07:29 AM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/con...013/27884/

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/con...lls/33143/

I would say that the NFL hasn't been entertaining since the late 1940's/early 1950's. Today's NFL is just a genetic three-step drop offense and without a quarterback, a team doesn't have a pass or a prayer.
10-28-2015 09:25 AM
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Hokie4Skins Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
Is the complaint that the league actually has parity?
10-28-2015 11:51 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
If anyone thinks that offenses are less entertaining, it might be because of a trend in both college and pro football to emphasize safer pass plays, to find an open receiver on a short route and let him try to get yards after the catch.

I'm sure it drives a lot of older fans nuts (and retired players calling games on TV complain, too) when they see receivers running 4 yard out routes on 3rd-and-8, because they'd rather see old-school QBs like Stabler or Favre chucking up a long pass into double coverage, but they don't complain when the receiver breaks the tackle and turns it into a gain of 20.
10-28-2015 12:21 PM
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OrangeCrush22 Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 11:51 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  Is the complaint that the league actually has parity?

NFL has very little parity. 13 teams have never won a Super Bowl. 4 teams have ever even been to a Super Bowl.

NBA also has 13 teams that have never won the Finals and 7 that have never been to the Finals.

NHL has 11 teams that never won a Stanley Cup and 6 that have never played for it.

MLB has 8 teams that have never won a World Series. Only the Nationals and Mariners have never been to a World Series.

Of the Big 4 only the NBA has less parity. And MLB, with no salary cap, has the most.
(This post was last modified: 10-28-2015 01:01 PM by OrangeCrush22.)
10-28-2015 01:00 PM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 12:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If anyone thinks that offenses are less entertaining, it might be because of a trend in both college and pro football to emphasize safer pass plays, to find an open receiver on a short route and let him try to get yards after the catch.

I'm sure it drives a lot of older fans nuts (and retired players calling games on TV complain, too) when they see receivers running 4 yard out routes on 3rd-and-8, because they'd rather see old-school QBs like Stabler or Favre chucking up a long pass into double coverage, but they don't complain when the receiver breaks the tackle and turns it into a gain of 20.

As a basically neutral observer after Favre's retirement, I find today's passing game to completely sterile and yawn worthy. The old gunslinger model has been rendered obsolete by today's absurd pass penalties. As Cold Hard Football Facts said in their articles on the subject: the defense has been handicapped and that has led to a less risk passing game.
10-28-2015 01:38 PM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 01:00 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(10-28-2015 11:51 AM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  Is the complaint that the league actually has parity?

NFL has very little parity. 13 teams have never won a Super Bowl. 4 teams have ever even been to a Super Bowl.

NBA also has 13 teams that have never won the Finals and 7 that have never been to the Finals.

NHL has 11 teams that never won a Stanley Cup and 6 that have never played for it.

MLB has 8 teams that have never won a World Series. Only the Nationals and Mariners have never been to a World Series.

Of the Big 4 only the NBA has less parity. And MLB, with no salary cap, has the most.

Especially when in today's NFL, if you don't have a quarterback, you aren't going to win a Super Bowl.
10-28-2015 01:39 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
If we measure parity by the number of different winners and finalists in each, during this century (2001-2015), MLB and NFL are roughly the same and both have somewhat more parity than NBA, though IMO all three have quite a bit of parity, in terms of having different champions and finalists over the years.

MLB (counting 2015): 17 different World Series participating teams and 10 different WS champs in 15 years.

NFL: 17 different Super Bowl participating teams and 9 different SB champs in 15 years.

NBA: 12 different teams in NBA finals and 7 different NBA champs in 15 years.
10-28-2015 01:50 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 05:33 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfls...li=AAa0dzB

Anyone agree with the article?

His argument is that play quality is down because there is less offense? I have definitely noticed this as well, but to me that has made the play quality better. Football is not designed to be a 40-35 game every week. I like offense as much as anyone else, but sometimes less is more. And I think this season so far has been better than last season, because it looks more like football, and less like arena football.

Now injuries are a concern, but they happen every year. And Penalties and missed tackles are the result of less practice time, but it's a give and take. The FG kicking (and XP's) have been awful this year, but in a way that it is more like college, where kicks are no guaranteed. To me that is a good thing: keeps games closer.


So basically I don't agree at all.
10-28-2015 01:54 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 07:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Easily. The two best teams right now, the Patriots and Packers, aren't anywhere near the quality of the best teams of 20 years ago.

The 1992-1995 Cowboys and 49ers were far, far better than each. If you compare today's Packers with the 90s Cowboys, the only positions that favor the Packers is QB, and by the slightest margin. Everywhere else, the Cowboys are better.

With the Patriots, the only positions are QB (again, marginally) and tight end. Everywhere else, the Cowboys are better.

Free Agency/Sal Cap has made this a coach-QB league, with all the other parts being interchangeable. You don't have the mighty, star-cluttered teams of the past.


I think you are highly overvaluing Aikman as a quarterback. He was like Terry Bradshaw to an extent, right time and place, and could run the team he had better than most anyone else. However you could not build a team around him, winning the games for you. Rodgers is better than him. Brady is about 2-3 levels above him. Brady is on everyone's list of top quarterbacks of all time, somewhere safely in the top five, many times in the second or first position. I have never, ever heard anyone mention Aikman in that breathe, not even in the top ten.

That said, those teams didn't have salary caps, so they could keep players. Today once you have a star quarterback, who costs you $15-$20 million per year, you have to get rid of players. It is the prime reason why the 49ers, Ravens, and Seahawks are suffering: previously they had an advantage over every contending team in the league with a cheap quarterback. Once they had to pay them market value, they lost a lot of players because of salary cap limitations.
10-28-2015 02:00 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 12:21 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If anyone thinks that offenses are less entertaining, it might be because of a trend in both college and pro football to emphasize safer pass plays, to find an open receiver on a short route and let him try to get yards after the catch.

I'm sure it drives a lot of older fans nuts (and retired players calling games on TV complain, too) when they see receivers running 4 yard out routes on 3rd-and-8, because they'd rather see old-school QBs like Stabler or Favre chucking up a long pass into double coverage, but they don't complain when the receiver breaks the tackle and turns it into a gain of 20.

I normally agree with your posts Wedge. But, not this one. If you knew the old guys who played in the 50's & 60's you would soon realize that they played, most of them anyway, because they loved it. It wasn't lucrative, it wasn't filled with endorsement money, it didn't have sleek logos and well crafted corporate images for the teams. The old NFL wasn't too far akin from old style professional wrestling, or the spikes first slides of Ty Cobb. The guys who played came from tough backgrounds and played tough, and took nothing for granted.

Like so much of our nation these kids today think only of the money, their image, and think little of the teams or each other. In their selfishness they may possess the physical strength to play but not the character or mental toughness to play selflessly for a cause greater than their own statistics. That's why the "so called" stars don't block downfield, don't sacrifice their bodies for their teammates, and at the slightest sign of pain head out for the career saving MRI.

I submit that the play isn't as good as it once was. In fact it's not even close. But you can't sell that to kids born after 1990.

Yes, the rules have hurt, but it's the nature of the men themselves that has really changed. These guys may be faster, even bigger, and likely stronger, but they are hardly tougher. Toughness is in the mind and their minds have never really known hardship, the kind of poverty that the men of the 50's were born into in the 30's, and most have never known the loss of friends that the 40's and 60's produced in war. Sure they come from some hard situations in life, but they truly hardly compare to traveling West looking for pennies a day with which to buy potatoes.

In short the whole game has changed along with the men who play it. It is controlled, used to produce revenue with every nuance of branding that can be sold from the images of the teams to those of the individual players. All of that must be safeguarded and therein is the loss of the sheer joy of playing, playing for less, playing in tougher climates, harsher field conditions, and with poorer equipment, but playing like hell just to win.

As with baseball, basketball and now football, just to make the show makes you a millionaire, and in that one fact alone there is too much to lose to play the game with the reckless abandon with which it was meant to be played. They are taking the toughness out because they fear what they will lose economically which means the game is not played for the fun of it, but profit. It is not played for the thrill of winning, but for the acquisition of personal gain. And it is not played with the toughness of self sacrifice for winning, but rather out of the fear of losing all the aforementioned.

And that my friend is just half of the truth. The other half is that the kids starting in peewee and moving through the college ranks are less trained in the fundamentals of the game, and have less recognition of what is happening before them in play because they never learned to think through the progression of the game (meaning they were not ever really a student of it), and because colleges are swamped now with these under-trained, under-schooled prima donnas they run the spread with oversimplified schemes made possible by rules against physicality and defensive techniques so that they can light up the score board for a whole generation that can't watch anything for 2 minutes without the need for instant gratification and stimulation, which the last time I checked was a neurological response to impulses rather than to thought and the art of a craft well preformed. And they want to root for a winner, because by proxy it is for themselves, rather than out of love for an idea, an alma mater, or friends. Hence the gross abundance of taunting moronic t shirt fans anywhere you go.

That is why the game has passed me by. I find no glory, honor, or sacrifice in it to make it noble. Just narcissistic endeavors to enrich. Oh, and by the way, the house wins against the spread 85% of the time. In that it is still kind of like professional wrestling.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2015 07:01 AM by JRsec.)
10-28-2015 02:00 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 02:00 PM)JRsec Wrote:  As with baseball, basketball and now football, just to make the show makes you a millionaire, and in that one fact alone there is too much to lose to play the game with the reckless abandon with which it was meant to be played. They are taking the toughness out because they fear what they will lose economically which means the game is not played for the fun of it, but profit. It is not played for the thrill of winning, but for the acquisition of personal gain. And it is not played with the toughness of self sacrifice for winning, but rather out of the fear of losing all the aforementioned.

A lot of that affects the entertainment value of pro football, but pro basketball is played at a much higher level and is more entertaining than it was in the 1970s.

Also, to be fair, if I was making an NFL salary, I would be thinking like most NFL players, trying to last long enough to play 10 years in the league instead of 4, so I can't fault a running back for stepping out of bounds at the end of a run rather than taking 3 extra yards while absorbing a bonecrushing hit. And, the best NFL players are not fungible today as much as they were 50 years ago, so if I were a coach or owner I would want my star players to prolong the peak of their career rather than being replaced more quickly by someone who isn't nearly as good.
10-28-2015 02:22 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
I think the quality of college football has declined as well. Watching teams attempt to tackle each other is at times embarrassing.
10-28-2015 02:58 PM
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 01:00 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  NFL has very little parity. 13 teams have never won a Super Bowl. 4 teams have ever even been to a Super Bowl.

NBA also has 13 teams that have never won the Finals and 7 that have never been to the Finals.

NHL has 11 teams that never won a Stanley Cup and 6 that have never played for it.

MLB has 8 teams that have never won a World Series. Only the Nationals and Mariners have never been to a World Series.

Of the Big 4 only the NBA has less parity. And MLB, with no salary cap, has the most.

The amount of teams that have made and won the championship round has no bearing on a league's parity. The Jazz, Cavs, Pacers, Suns and Hawks have never won an NBA title in their current city but they have more often than not been a lot better than the Warriors and Wizards, who have more titles.

As a matter of fact, franchises like the Cardinals, Yankees, Lakers and Celtics skew those numbers because they make the championship round so often to the detriment of others.
10-28-2015 04:00 PM
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 01:00 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  NFL has very little parity. 13 teams have never won a Super Bowl. 4 teams have ever even been to a Super Bowl.

NBA also has 13 teams that have never won the Finals and 7 that have never been to the Finals.

NHL has 11 teams that never won a Stanley Cup and 6 that have never played for it.

MLB has 8 teams that have never won a World Series. Only the Nationals and Mariners have never been to a World Series.

Of the Big 4 only the NBA has less parity. And MLB, with no salary cap, has the most.

This measure of parity doesn't work. The first World Series was in 1903, whereas the first Super Bowl was in 1967. That's 112 opportunities to spread the trophy around vs. 49. More than twice as many. The NBA checks in at 64 (1950). The Stanley Cup goes back even further than the World Series, but only 6 NHL teams pre-date the Super Bowl era, whereas 20 baseball teams pre-date the Super Bowl. In short, this measure is heavily tilted in favor of baseball.
10-28-2015 05:21 PM
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
(10-28-2015 02:58 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I think the quality of college football has declined as well. Watching teams attempt to tackle each other is at times embarrassing.

One of the head coaches I coached for calls it "Sportscenter Syndrome" After the first few full contact practices I finally asked him what that was. He said "Everybody wants to make that Sportscenter highlight hit, even at this level. Just go blow somebody up and hear the crowd go 'OOOOOOOH'. It's why everybody playing baseball wants to hit a sky shot home run, and why everybody playing basketball wants to dunk. When Sportscenter starts making a big deal out of a form tackle, or a solid base hit or a mid-range jumper then kids will want to do it to be like their heros. Until then we have an uphill battle trying to teach kids the right way when the only thing being reinforced is the wrong way."
10-28-2015 06:05 PM
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RE: OT: NFL Quality of play down
The first World Series was in 1903 (with two missing 1904 and '94) but about half of MLB teams have been around since 1961. And MLB is probably worst when it comes to parity, as Chicago (x2), Boston (two teams for some time) and Washington (part of the time) went almost a century without winning a World Series with very few appearances. The Phillies were a major loser for much of that time and won one single one (and not without some luck, excuse my bitter Houston sports persona speaking) while Cleveland hasn't won one since almost the beginning of the Cold War. Meanwhile, one franchise hoarded in 26 titles and many more World Series in 3/4 century.
10-28-2015 06:07 PM
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