(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

(09-02-2015 01:01 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  The more I think about it, the more I see the Big South's best option being to go to limited-scholarship football while allowing non-scholarship programs to participate. Campbell, as you point out, is already a Big South member, and given how dire things are for them right now, I can't imagine they'd have a problem allowing Jacksonville, Stetson, and Davidson in as affiliate members. Presuming Liberty's out the door, that gives you nine members and some wiggle room if Monmouth goes to a more regionally appropriate league. And they'd still have their playoff bid, even if they went totally non-scholarship.

If the Big South goes that route, it could merge football with the Northeast Conference. Any objectors could affiliate with the SoCon, OVC, or if a spot opens up, the CAA. If the Big South wants to maintain full scholarships, it could try to grab Duquesne as an affiliate from the NEC.

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

(09-09-2015 06:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

The question was not how many four year schools started as hyphens of a flagship, but how many hyphens as a flagship that are four year schools are in the position because it was the easiest way to start them.

From the Wikipedia machine on UWGB:

Quote: By 1958, the University of Wisconsin-Extension's Green Bay center had swollen to 500 students, and was the second-largest of UW-Extension's eight freshman-sophomore centers. It grew to become the largest by 1965. Demand soon grew for a full-fledged four-year campus serving northeastern Wisconsin. Rudy Small, a vice president of the Paper Converting Machine Company, and Jake Rose, president of Kellogg Bank, took the lead in pushing for a new university in the region. In 1963, the Coordinating Committee for Higher Education unanimously recommended building a new university in the Fox Valley. However, Governor Warren Knowles was somewhat cool to the idea. Eventually, he compromised by proposing that the freshman-sophomore campuses in Green Bay and Kenosha be expanded to four-year institutions (the Kenosha institution eventually became the University of Wisconsin-Parkside). The bill was signed into law on September 2, 1965.[3]

UW–Green Bay officially came into being in the fall of 1968, with the first classes being held at the Deckner Center, home to the old Green Bay extension center. It moved to its current location in the fall of 1969.[4]

So there's two.

(09-09-2015 06:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

In South Carolina there are four branches of the USC system that have upgraded to four year colleges - USC-Aiken, USC-Sumter, USC-Upstate and USC-Beaufort.

Coastal Carolina was originally a two year branch of College of Charleston, then of the USC system before becoming a four year school.

Francis Marion University started out as a freshman center in the USC system before becoming independent and becoming a four year school.

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

(09-09-2015 08:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 06:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

In South Carolina there are four branches of the USC system that have upgraded to four year colleges - USC-Aiken, USC-Sumter, USC-Upstate and USC-Beaufort.

Coastal Carolina was originally a two year branch of College of Charleston, then of the USC system before becoming a four year school.

Francis Marion University started out as a freshman center in the USC system before becoming independent and becoming a four year school.

There was a news article that USC-Beaufort could start up a football program. This was a couple of years ago.

There is a student alum movement also trying to get football started at Francis Marion.

We could see 2 new football schools starting up in the lower levels in south Carolina.

The reason why many schools are starting up football is to try and keep students leaving the state, and keep the talent of players in state. That is why many Texas schools are starting up football. Texas-Tyler, UTRGV, TA&M-CC, UTA and some others are thinking about it.

California is losing many students to out of state including talent in football to other states. Many California schools could wind up restarting football or start up football to keep the talent in state.

(09-10-2015 05:46 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 08:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 06:45 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

I highly doubt that.

How many four year schools today started as hyphens of a flagship? I doubt more than 10%.

Many of them started as Normal schools.

In South Carolina there are four branches of the USC system that have upgraded to four year colleges - USC-Aiken, USC-Sumter, USC-Upstate and USC-Beaufort.

Coastal Carolina was originally a two year branch of College of Charleston, then of the USC system before becoming a four year school.

Francis Marion University started out as a freshman center in the USC system before becoming independent and becoming a four year school.

There was a news article that USC-Beaufort could start up a football program. This was a couple of years ago.

There is a student alum movement also trying to get football started at Francis Marion.

We could see 2 new football schools starting up in the lower levels in south Carolina.

The reason why many schools are starting up football is to try and keep students leaving the state, and keep the talent of players in state. That is why many Texas schools are starting up football. Texas-Tyler, UTRGV, TA&M-CC, UTA and some others are thinking about it.

California is losing many students to out of state including talent in football to other states. Many California schools could wind up restarting football or start up football to keep the talent in state.

USC-Columbia isn't going to allow USC-Beaufort to start a football program, and Beaufort doesn't have the alumni base to do it on it's own. They have only been a four year school for eleven years. Besides, at this point they have to concentrate on getting their abysmal graduation rates in order.

And Francis Marion wasn't a student movement, it was driven by one alum almost two years ago now and it quickly died away as the school vehemently stated there was no interest and football was financially impossible.

There are soon to be three FBS teams, six FCS teams, and four DII teams in South Carolina. If a player wants to stay in-state they have plenty of existing options.

(09-05-2015 09:07 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-05-2015 01:58 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I'm merely questioning what public good does it do to have these institutions be hyphens, governed by the same board and president as the main campus.

Its far easier to start a small four year university as a branch of the main, established, four year university.

SO its likely that they exist because the local area wanted a school, and that was the way to start a school that was feasible.

If you want to get technical about it, it's easy to start a private school. A local hospital did that not long ago.

(09-09-2015 08:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  In South Carolina there are four branches of the USC system that have upgraded to four year colleges - USC-Aiken, USC-Sumter, USC-Upstate and USC-Beaufort.

Coastal Carolina was originally a two year branch of College of Charleston, then of the USC system before becoming a four year school.

Francis Marion University started out as a freshman center in the USC system before becoming independent and becoming a four year school.

And in Ohio, Rhodes spread the two year branch campuses around so thick on the ground and distributed them among so many different existing Universities that it seems that none of those were in a position to emerge into new four year schools ... and a little after that was the start of the period when the only really substantial growth center was in Central Ohio, in the shadow of tOSU.

So it seems likely that a lot of it will involve the details of the state governments at the time that a push was made to get a four year University ... was the governor at the time unwilling to back an independent 4 year institution, but willing to back one affiliated with the state flagship, as in WI? Was there an open path to gaining independence at the same time as stepping up to four year status, as seemed to be the case in South Carolina?

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

You get a lot of schools started on a certain mission or serving a certain population or sector. Then, as they live, they adapt to the needs of all students and their own survival. Two-year/feeder schools become four-year, colleges become universities, and teaching colleges or normal schools become liberal arts schools or comprehensive universities, while others try to shoot for the moon and go all out toward research.

I suspect most system campuses, were they to ever drop from their flagship holder, would shutter within years. You need some commitment, vision, and a lot of resources (political and financial) these days to sever and survive. Areas are simply over-saturated with schools.

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

(09-10-2015 08:32 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 08:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  In South Carolina there are four branches of the USC system that have upgraded to four year colleges - USC-Aiken, USC-Sumter, USC-Upstate and USC-Beaufort.

Coastal Carolina was originally a two year branch of College of Charleston, then of the USC system before becoming a four year school.

Francis Marion University started out as a freshman center in the USC system before becoming independent and becoming a four year school.

And in Ohio, Rhodes spread the two year branch campuses around so thick on the ground and distributed them among so many different existing Universities that it seems that none of those were in a position to emerge into new four year schools ... and a little after that was the start of the period when the only really substantial growth center was in Central Ohio, in the shadow of tOSU.

So it seems likely that a lot of it will involve the details of the state governments at the time that a push was made to get a four year University ... was the governor at the time unwilling to back an independent 4 year institution, but willing to back one affiliated with the state flagship, as in WI? Was there an open path to gaining independence at the same time as stepping up to four year status, as seemed to be the case in South Carolina?

No, not really. As with anything in SC it was more dependent on the school in the area having a grievance with the USC system and a benevolent senior Senator in office at the State House.

(09-10-2015 01:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

I thought Kennesaw St. was in the Big South and if that is the case it would be only 50 miles from the University of West Georgia to Kennesaw St..

(09-10-2015 03:20 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 01:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

I thought Kennesaw St. was in the Big South and if that is the case it would be only 50 miles from the University of West Georgia to Kennesaw St..

Kennesaw is in the Big South for football only, and the A-Sun for everything else. Though at 24,000 enrollment, they already have a much larger on-campus population than any school in either conference, and it wouldn't surprise me if they moved up in the coming years, either to a better FCS conference or to FBS.

(09-10-2015 02:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 08:32 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Was there an open path to gaining independence at the same time as stepping up to four year status, as seemed to be the case in South Carolina?

No, not really. As with anything in SC it was more dependent on the school in the area having a grievance with the USC system and a benevolent senior Senator in office at the State House.

There's your open path right there. It might not have been open to all comers, but it was open to Coastal, and they took it.

Some four year flagship dash location school might not see the necessity of change, because they don't have those grievances, or the net of benefits vs grievances tally up to a positive from the relationship. Others might have those grievances (witness UAB) but not have the open path to breaking the relationship.

(09-10-2015 05:49 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 02:33 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 08:32 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  Was there an open path to gaining independence at the same time as stepping up to four year status, as seemed to be the case in South Carolina?

No, not really. As with anything in SC it was more dependent on the school in the area having a grievance with the USC system and a benevolent senior Senator in office at the State House.

There's your open path right there. It might not have been open to all comers, but it was open to Coastal, and they took it.

Some four year flagship dash location school might not see the necessity of change, because they don't have those grievances, or the net of benefits vs grievances tally up to a positive from the relationship. Others might have those grievances (witness UAB) but not have the open path to breaking the relationship.

Ah, I interpreted the open path you mentioned as an established procedure. There is none, and to my understanding there were significant differences in how Coastal Carolina split away from the USC system and how Francis Marion split. It's only been a few years since USC-Columbia would schedule Coastal Carolina in any sport because of the split.

(09-10-2015 03:20 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 01:32 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-10-2015 09:00 AM)Rabonchild Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 10:27 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(09-09-2015 07:57 PM)Rabonchild Wrote:  If I was the Big South I would go south and reach out to University of West Georgia, Valdosta St, university of North Alabama, University of Alabama - Huntsville, University of West Florida, & UNC Pembroke.

I think the time to go deeper into the Mid-South passed when Birmingham-Southern dropped out of the Big South and into Division III. Now the Alabama schools and West Florida would be too far afield.

Too bad Christopher Newport in Newport News, Va. is D-III. They've got about 5,000 students and a 2,500-seat basketball gym, which is about the low end of the midrange for the BSC. Football stadium only seats 4,200, though I think it's expandable. On paper, they'd be a reasonable thought for the Big South. But the transition from 3 to 2 to 1 is pretty damn long, if I remember.

I recently read that University of West Georgia is looking at FCS

A bit far from the footprint (four hours from the nearest Big South school, Presbyterian) but viable. Problem is, you'd probably have to add at least one other school, and nobody else is in the vicinity (Valdosta State, for example, is five hours from Charleston Southern and five-and-a-half hours from Presby). Perhaps Atlantic Sun memberships with Big South football affiliations?

I thought Kennesaw St. was in the Big South and if that is the case it would be only 50 miles from the University of West Georgia to Kennesaw St..

Kennesaw is in a tough spot. They don't fit very well in any other fcs conference. The socon would be the best if they wanted to upgrade but i highly doubt furman and co allow a public school so big with such potential to dominate in their clubhouse. The caa is a poor geographic fit as i dont see any desire to get back into Georgia.

I think their best bet is to get some of the Florida schools ro build up fcs programs and either do asun football or join them in the big south.

For Olympic sports they fit in well with the Florida schools

If fbs us their goal they would fit in nicely in the sunbelt if cusa ever steals ga st