(08-22-2015 07:28 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  

(08-22-2015 04:11 PM)GSUNCSU Wrote:  Not there...

The Constitution Wrote:Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The bolded part is the important one. It is summarized to say separation between church and state, but the reality is that the government shall not endorse a religion over others.

By using government funds to hire one particular religion's clergy, the government is therefore establishing a religion for the entity. (now, that is assuming he is on the company payroll, and his salary isn't paid for by other funds, that they limit the clergy to one religion, and a whole lotta other stuff).

What about using government funds to pay for the religious practices of enemy combatants?

Government funds are used to pay for the spread of Earth worship in the government schools and the Federal Government and every state have an Environmental Protection Agency/Division creating regulations which impose the "beliefs" of Gaians upon the governed.

The "official" state religion is now Statism and its proliferation has enslaved 2-3 generations by creating total dependence upon the State and their numbers are growing. Half of the population now receives some form of transfer payment from government. We don't have to go all the way back to Jefferson. Even famous "progressives" like FDR and JFK would be appalled at where the Left has taken us.

That said - there's no stopping the "progress" now. We have lost freedom of speech/opinion (you can have an opinion but you can lose your career or freedom if it is contrary to Leftist Doctrine which defines several taboo '-isms') and we are subject to laws which originate from unelected judges and bureaucrats. Don't dare associate Jefferson, Madison, and other Founders with the mess we helped create through direct action or inaction.

(08-23-2015 09:31 AM)Eagles Cliff Wrote:  That said - there's no stopping the "progress" now. We have lost freedom of speech/opinion (you can have an opinion but you can lose your career or freedom if it is contrary to Leftist Doctrine which defines several taboo '-isms') and we are subject to laws which originate from unelected judges and bureaucrats. Don't dare associate Jefferson, Madison, and other Founders with the mess we helped create through direct action or inaction.

Where was it ever stated that you are immune to the "blowback" from your statement of belief? That was NEVER guaranteed by the founding fathers.

I can walk into a church and scream "I hate Jesus" or into a candle shop to yell how I hate gay folks (that was a joke, people)... But I am not insulated from the repercussions of those actions.

(08-23-2015 12:05 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  I can walk into a church and scream "I hate Jesus" or into a candle shop to yell how I hate gay folks (that was a joke, people)... But I am not insulated from the repercussions of those actions.

The difference here is if you said you hate gay people you'd be discriminating, but if you said you hate Jesus you'd be voicing your opinion. If the members of this hypothetical church attacked you for it you'd be protected, and the media would have your back. If the people in the candle shop attacked you it would be because you provoked it.

(08-23-2015 12:24 PM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 12:05 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  I can walk into a church and scream "I hate Jesus" or into a candle shop to yell how I hate gay folks (that was a joke, people)... But I am not insulated from the repercussions of those actions.

The difference here is if you said you hate gay people you'd be discriminating, but if you said you hate Jesus you'd be voicing your opinion. If the members of this hypothetical church attacked you for it you'd be protected, and the media would have your back. If the people in the candle shop attacked you it would be because you provoked it.

No, that's not correct. You may think that is how it would work, but that doesn't make it the truth.

Both are voicing opinions. And until I am running a public entity, I am free to espouse those opinions. It is when I decide to pick someone over another (all other things being equal) due to those beliefs does it become discrimination.

(08-23-2015 12:24 PM)Bobcat2013 Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 12:05 PM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  I can walk into a church and scream "I hate Jesus" or into a candle shop to yell how I hate gay folks (that was a joke, people)... But I am not insulated from the repercussions of those actions.

The difference here is if you said you hate gay people you'd be discriminating, but if you said you hate Jesus you'd be voicing your opinion. If the members of this hypothetical church attacked you for it you'd be protected, and the media would have your back. If the people in the candle shop attacked you it would be because you provoked it.

Neither is discrimination. Both are opinion. Saying "I won't serve you" because your gay or because you're Christian is discrimination, and as far as I can tell that's only happening to one of those two groups. But regardless of that, in not sure how you went from religion to everything you just said. One is the way that this government is set up, the other is your opinion on politics.

But it's the Constitution that sets up the separation of church and state, and that's been held up by the judges that matter. While it might not read the way you want it in your opinion, it's not your opinion that matters (unless you're a supreme Court Justice, and I'm under the impression you're not). There are plenty of amendments that have been reviewed because they're purposely vague, and this is the result of it. And it's a good thing. It works pretty well for the US, because without it, things would be pretty bad.

Christians always feel like they are under attack when they don't get ideological confirmation from their government lol. The problem with basing your government around a set of bronze age fairy tails is the hypocrisy in reformed religions picking and choosing what to take literally and what to take symbolically.Christians are all up in arms about gays being against their religion and site Leviticus 18-20 as justification but they have no problem eating shell fish or wearing cloth with mixed fabrics which is also banned in Leviticus. That is why there is such a large schism in Islam right now, a large majority of people would be apart of a "reformed" version where the text is used as a metaphorical guide, then there are groups like ISIS who take it literally word for word to justify their heinous acts. There just hasn't been a reformation yet as it is still a relatively young religion. I think people arguing that we shouldn't be a secular nation and that Christianity should dictate our laws have never read the bible and don't realize the Pandora's box they are trying to open. Not that I think not reading the bible makes you a bad Christian, people have jobs, kids, a wife to keep happy, and a football team to root for they don't have time to read a long, boring, complicated text they have to interpret... That's why they go to church, to get the highlights and as football fans you know that just watching the highlights doesn't mean you know the team. In my opinion all religions should be kept out of government and if that ever changes I'm outa here.

(08-23-2015 03:51 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Christians always feel like they are under attack when they don't get ideological confirmation from their government lol. The problem with basing your government around a set of bronze age fairy tails is the hypocrisy in reformed religions picking and choosing what to take literally and what to take symbolically.Christians are all up in arms about gays being against their religion and site Leviticus 18-20 as justification but they have no problem eating shell fish or wearing cloth with mixed fabrics which is also banned in Leviticus. That is why there is such a large schism in Islam right now, a large majority of people would be apart of a "reformed" version where the text is used as a metaphorical guide, then there are groups like ISIS who take it literally word for word to justify their heinous acts. There just hasn't been a reformation yet as it is still a relatively young religion. I think people arguing that we shouldn't be a secular nation and that Christianity should dictate our laws have never read the bible and don't realize the Pandora's box they are trying to open. Not that I think not reading the bible makes you a bad Christian, people have jobs, kids, a wife to keep happy, and a football team to root for they don't have time to read a long, boring, complicated text they have to interpret... That's why they go to church, to get the highlights and as football fans you know that just watching the highlights doesn't mean you know the team. In my opinion all religions should be kept out of government and if that ever changes I'm outa here.

Anybody else thinking... ?



Some don't believe in God. Fine, their choice. If that's the case, non of it matters. And on topic, what does it hurt to let one pray or express one's beliefs? Let them, let others get on a rug and face Mecca if they want to - And as is stated, they might get some "blowback" from the crowd.. but "what Eve's".
Now I'm not sure how we got on the gay topic, But what is interesting is that everybody wants to sight Leviticus, even modern churches (who claim to follow this God) talk about a lot of things changing and not applying in the new testament. Ok... but what doesn't change in the text is a distinct distaste for homosexuality by the creator - again IF you believe in such a being and that the Bible is His word - If not, it doesn't matter.
But if you do and think He has changed the directive from the old to the new testament on this topic, well.... When you call something detestable... That doesn't change. And there are mentions in the New Testament (Romans, Timothy, Corinthians). It is clearly a sin for those who believe that sins actually exist.

People can do what they want, I have gay customers who I provide with the same service as everyone else. No problem. But the real issue is when those people want to force feed our society that their CHOICE is right and not a sin. If God doesn't exist, sin does not exist. But don't try to tell me that a living God has changed his mind on Homosexuality. It is listed along with several other sins, imop.. all forgivable when one ask forgiveness, failure to admit a sin is wrong and ask for that forgiveness is.... probably unforgivable.

Either way, a Chaplin there to help a team with advice and staying out of trouble, and the emotional chalanges of college students should be seen as a good thing. At least they will be advised to "Do Right", which will probably keep them mostly out of trouble if they listen. Don't have a problem with it.

Trying to enforce these changes.. good luck!
Here is something from this past week in GA.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/12/gro...t-prayers/

Oh so being gay is a choice? Well then why don't you choose to be gay right now, just for a little while... Now that you have chosen to be gay why don't you tell us all about how attractive you now find other men. Better be careful though if you don't say your sorry to you're "living God" imaginary friend he might burn you in a lake of fire for eternity... because you know... he loves you. This is the danger I'm talking about when you try an establish a non secular state, reason and logic go out the window and religious dogma reigns. So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry. If a state funded public university is paying these religious leaders to come they need to stop and ask a booster to pay for the services that way they can have their cake and eat it too.

Sorry... The gay being brought into this discussion was my bad. I was using it as an example, not trying to rail it over towards a gay discussion.

mea culpa.

(08-22-2015 10:05 AM)bladhmadh Wrote:  I played on a team that's depth chart was influenced by participation in fca

THIS

Believed that this is a very pervasive problem in sports.

The Fellowship of "Christian" Athletes should not have anything to do with any public institution. No special benefit. No special access. No special promotion by coaches or athletic departments.

I think that special access to minister to students (and with the implied endorsement of the school - as official chaplain) is wrong at a public school.

(08-23-2015 05:43 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Oh so being gay is a choice? Well then why don't you choose to be gay right now, just for a little while... Now that you have chosen to be gay why don't you tell us all about how attractive you now find other men. Better be careful though if you don't say your sorry to you're "living God" imaginary friend he might burn you in a lake of fire for eternity... because you know... he loves you. This is the danger I'm talking about when you try an establish a non secular state, reason and logic go out the window and religious dogma reigns. So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry. If a state funded public university is paying these religious leaders to come they need to stop and ask a booster to pay for the services that way they can have their cake and eat it too.

And yea, it's a choice. And it's my right and choice to believe that it is a choice. But, hey.. I'm not forcing that belief on you.

We can agree on this: "reason and logic go out the window ", that's happening all over the place these days. And it's what is happening with people sticking their noses into what these teams choose to do or believe. It's a public University, that doesn't mean these people have to be non-believers. It isn't establishing a non secular state. Is that the real fear here? Is anyone afraid that teams having a Chaplin (which has been going on for a loooooong loooooong time!) is leading us towards a government that is going to force us to believe in God and go to Church or go to jail? Well, it hasn't happened yet! And in fact, we seem to be heading in the other direction, away from God. There is no reason to believe that there are any problems being caused by team Chaplins, and you are right.. all logic HAS gone out the window.

Religious influences have been a part of our Government since the beginning. I don't have a problem with where the funds come from. I assure you that enough people who agree with having a Chaplin, have paid enough taxes to cover that guy's salary without counting your tax dollars.

There is a major difference between this and forcing a belief on someone. They aren't requiring participation from any team member. They are not persecuting or discriminating against anyone, EVEN non-believers by having a Chaplin. Now that might be offending someone! But then again, if you aren't offending ANYONE these days.... you're probably not doing it right, or anything at all. Heck, I'm offended that your offended!


And here is an old saying that has never made any sense to me:
"have their cake and eat it too".... What the heck is the point in having cake if you can't eat it?

And just out of curiosity.... Where would you go?
"So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry"

(08-23-2015 11:10 PM)The4thOption Wrote:  

(08-23-2015 05:43 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Oh so being gay is a choice? Well then why don't you choose to be gay right now, just for a little while... Now that you have chosen to be gay why don't you tell us all about how attractive you now find other men. Better be careful though if you don't say your sorry to you're "living God" imaginary friend he might burn you in a lake of fire for eternity... because you know... he loves you. This is the danger I'm talking about when you try an establish a non secular state, reason and logic go out the window and religious dogma reigns. So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry. If a state funded public university is paying these religious leaders to come they need to stop and ask a booster to pay for the services that way they can have their cake and eat it too.

And yea, it's a choice. And it's my right and choice to believe that it is a choice. But, hey.. I'm not forcing that belief on you.

We can agree on this: "reason and logic go out the window ", that's happening all over the place these days. And it's what is happening with people sticking their noses into what these teams choose to do or believe. It's a public University, that doesn't mean these people have to be non-believers. It isn't establishing a non secular state. Is that the real fear here? Is anyone afraid that teams having a Chaplin (which has been going on for a loooooong loooooong time!) is leading us towards a government that is going to force us to believe in God and go to Church or go to jail? Well, it hasn't happened yet! And in fact, we seem to be heading in the other direction, away from God. There is no reason to believe that there are any problems being caused by team Chaplins, and you are right.. all logic HAS gone out the window.

Religious influences have been a part of our Government since the beginning. I don't have a problem with where the funds come from. I assure you that enough people who agree with having a Chaplin, have paid enough taxes to cover that guy's salary without counting your tax dollars.

There is a major difference between this and forcing a belief on someone. They aren't requiring participation from any team member. They are not persecuting or discriminating against anyone, EVEN non-believers by having a Chaplin. Now that might be offending someone! But then again, if you aren't offending ANYONE these days.... you're probably not doing it right, or anything at all. Heck, I'm offended that your offended!


And here is an old saying that has never made any sense to me:
"have their cake and eat it too".... What the heck is the point in having cake if you can't eat it?

And just out of curiosity.... Where would you go?
"So yeah I would be out of here quick fast and in a hurry"

You seem to have a problem empathizing with minority groups, neither issue that has been discussed affects me in any way but I can at least put myself in their shoes. Reverse either to be negative toward your point of view and all the sudden it's an outrage.

What if you and your wife were not allowed to get married and access to all the legal rights and protections that entails because the government thought heterosexuality was gross and wrong and that you should stop choosing to be straight and choose to be gay and reproduce safely in a test tube like everyone else. It is clearly stated in their new gay testament bible so it has to be true. You would think that is completely ridiculous and extremely discriminatory and you would be right. Sucks when that shoe is on the other foot eh?

I don't think anyone is actually afraid that a Chaplin talking to a bunch of college players is going to have a direct causal effect leading to the government abolishing the first amendment and adopting an official religion as your straw man argument would suggest. The point is people don't want their kids being preached to by religious leaders they don't follow. Would you be just fine if instead of Chaplins it were Imams being provided by a state funded school preaching Islam to your Middle school and HS kids without any sort of parental oversight at all? Before every game he led the team in Islamic prayers and asked Allah for glory on the football field. Even if you didn't participate you would be forced to sit thought it anyway( If you think you can just get up and walk out of a team huddle or meeting because someone starts a short prayer without pissing off the coaches you are crazy). I don't know about you but that would make me uncomfortable. Just like Christianity being preached to Middle and HS kids in public institutions, I'm sure, makes Jews and Muslims and Atheist uncomfortable. If you want a specific religious influence it is your decision to go to a private school that will fill your needs but keep the bias out of public institutions. Christianity is not some special religion that gets special treatment and the founding fathers went out of their way to make that clear. It's just another religion and people that follow other religions don't want it shoved in their faces.

You can't have your cake and eat it too is pretty much self explanatory. You cannot simultaneously enjoy having and admiring the beauty of a cake while you are eating and enjoying the taste of said cake. In this situation it applies to the affect that public institutions can allow a specific religion's preachings without violating the constitutional precedent of separating church and state because it was provided by an outside source. I can't believe I just explained that.

I would probably go to Germany it is absolutely beautiful, they have a great education system, strong economy, Democratic governments, freedoms that were just taken from me in America, and crazy women. Scandinavian countries seem nice but that is a special kind of cold I just can't deal with, plus their language would be a struggle. Not that you care you just want to say 'Merica's the best period.

I do enjoy political discussions but I don't want to further muddle this thread with massive post. If you would like me to respond to anything else on these issues feel free to send me a message.

I was going to comment and try to have a informative conversation, but quickly realized most were just taking out personal grievances against others view points. , I should have know better.

p.s. the thread started off pretty good.

The main issue in this is not rather or not prayer should be said, but how offended people believe that they should be shielded from the offensive. In the setting we are discussing, the locker room, if someone is playing music I don't like or agree with, do I have the right to make them turn it off???

The end result is people in this politically correct world are just to damn sensitive to everyone else's opinions and beliefs. And with that comes the, "You said something I found offensive, so therefore you must lose everything you have earned in your life" mentality.

Get over it, if you are offended then what just happened wasn't for you, it was for the other 75% of the population that wasn't offended. I'm tired of the loud 10% of the people that were offended by whatever they are offended by trying to tell the other 90% of the people they can't do something. If you don't like it don't participate, no one makes you, and if there are repercussions for your choices, you must deal with that, the same goes in the other directions. If you do participate, and there is someone that disagrees with you and decides to not do business with you because of your participation, then that is there choice and the result of the choices you have made. That is the bases of a free world and free economy.

Well people have a right to participate in state sponsored activities. They also have a right not to have YOUR or MY religious views pounded into them in those activities. If you don't like that YOU can join a private organization that has a particular religious view of things.

That is a whole lot different than me thinking YOUR cologne could be a little milder, or that you should bath more often, or that you talk too loud, or almost anything else not protected by the constitution.

(08-24-2015 08:22 AM)CajunExpress Wrote:  Well people have a right to participate in state sponsored activities. They also have a right not to have YOUR or MY religious views pounded into them in those activities. If you don't like that YOU can join a private organization that has a particular religious view of things.

That is a whole lot different than me thinking YOUR cologne could be a little milder, or that you should bath more often, or that you talk too loud, or almost anything else not protected by the constitution.

But it is a state sponsored event that you are not required to participate in, and that is the protection we receive with the constitution. Again, you are missing the issue, someone else telling you what you can and can't do. I have an issue with a group telling me what I can't do in my orginazation, the same I would have a problem with someone telling me what I must do in my orginazation.

Sat and watched this unfold.....thought no way get into this one......WE CAN ALL AGREE on the following .....no argument how sound either way will ever convince another to change their religious opinions...NONE....An individual changes by their own experiences be they whatever they are or from wherever they come......

Our founding fathers (and there are a good many sources ) implied a separation of church and state that varied from a wall to a pebble. There were concerns they had borne of their own or families persecution. Remember these are the guys that gave us the Electoral College so as to mitigate the common masses being less educated and more likely to follow the persuasion of the day.

My point is simple....In our hearts and minds if you have a religious perspective borne of accepting Christ then the Holy Spirit makes the Bible make sense. We are to love our neighbors as ourselves or better and we do not judge......There is one judge and only one...There will be differing opinions on how to do that and how to live in this world. Gandhi was very right in my opinion when he said "love your Christ not so sure about your Christians" A good many can say and do a good amount of harm.

The other nite a show came on that my wife sat and watched. It was the "Unauthorized show about Full House, a old sitcom" In it Candace Cameron now Bure was asking John Stamos why people felt the way they did....She said her brother Kurt Cameron (who at the time was a star on Growing Pains) said she just needed to lean on God more......Stamos replied to your brother it is religion to me its music you have to ok to yourself and then what others say will not hurt or bother you..............YET Stamos then goes to his father complaining about the silly kid show and that no one took him serious and he was thinking about firing his agent.....His dad said why is it never enough...your famous and you have all you need or want.....

At that moment my wife turned to me and said why is that no matter who you are things are never actually perfect and for many never enough..............

I grabbed our Bible and read Philippians 3:12-13.....Kirk Cameron had it right a long time ago in his life.....Some on here may say I am crazy but I will say if I am wrong then I have lost nothing.....If I am right I have gained everything

We will always debate religion and those chaplains on those teams may impact a player a coach or even the team tag alongs.......Not often with words but with their actions. My thanks is to God for having players, coaches, and chaplains who know this in their hearts and live it out for others. However their being present WILL NOT alter the minds and hearts unless the individual wants it to do so. To restrict them would not help anyone accept those who are worried the State is trying to convince an individual to do something that is voluntary.....There is no pressure to be Christian to be first team....Because if there is .....the coach is not Christian either and should not be listened to at all in THAT AREA...I guarantee that if the Chaplains are who they say they are they love and respect your son or daughter just the same be they a believer or not. And they will help them in anyway they can either way.

(08-24-2015 08:55 AM)Buzz Lightyear Lite Wrote:  We will always debate religion and those chaplains on those teams may impact a player a coach or even the team tag alongs.......Not often with words but with their actions. My thanks is to God for having players, coaches, and chaplains who know this in their hearts and live it out for others. However their being present WILL NOT alter the minds and hearts unless the individual wants it to do so. To restrict them would not help anyone accept those who are worried the State is trying to convince an individual to do something that is voluntary.....There is no pressure to be Christian to be first team....Because if there is .....the coach is not Christian either and should not be listened to at all in THAT AREA...I guarantee that if the Chaplains are who they say they are they love and respect your son or daughter just the same be they a believer or not. And they will help them in anyway they can either way.

I think it's a pretty much accepted notion that if the coach is deciding playing time based on religion, he's not part of any real religion.

I also think that is the crux of most of the folks' against it argument (not all... because there are nutjobs on all sides of this fence... the pro chaplain and anti chaplain both), it's what those fringe jobbers are doing.

Sadly today, we have to deal with the lowest common denominator. It's why we have to have warnings on hair dryers not to use in the shower, why people can sue McDonald's for basically serving them HOT coffee. It's why Acetone has to have a warning label not to drink it.

Dang... now that I think of it, none of this junk is the problem with the US today... It's actually just lawyers. Lawyers telling everyone it's not their fault for being stupid, it's everyone else that is at fault.

(08-23-2015 03:51 PM)Godzilla Wrote:  Christians always feel like they are under attack when they don't get ideological confirmation from their government lol. The problem with basing your government around a set of bronze age fairy tails is the hypocrisy in reformed religions picking and choosing what to take literally and what to take symbolically.Christians are all up in arms about gays being against their religion and site Leviticus 18-20 as justification but they have no problem eating shell fish or wearing cloth with mixed fabrics which is also banned in Leviticus. That is why there is such a large schism in Islam right now, a large majority of people would be apart of a "reformed" version where the text is used as a metaphorical guide, then there are groups like ISIS who take it literally word for word to justify their heinous acts. There just hasn't been a reformation yet as it is still a relatively young religion. I think people arguing that we shouldn't be a secular nation and that Christianity should dictate our laws have never read the bible and don't realize the Pandora's box they are trying to open. Not that I think not reading the bible makes you a bad Christian, people have jobs, kids, a wife to keep happy, and a football team to root for they don't have time to read a long, boring, complicated text they have to interpret... That's why they go to church, to get the highlights and as football fans you know that just watching the highlights doesn't mean you know the team. In my opinion all religions should be kept out of government and if that ever changes I'm outa here.

What an over generalization and stereotype of Christianity and the Bible. I suppose you don't see the hypocrisy in your post. All you atheists / agnostics like to see Christians as Westboro Baptist gay haters because it fits with your worldview when the reality is most Christians are the ones feeding the poor, caring for the elderly and housing the orphans. But that is not the Christians that the elitists in the media and the latte drinking liberals want to talk about. As for reading of the Bible, perhaps you should read it again. The entire Bible - not just the parts that fit your agenda. Whether you think it is real or not that is an act of faith and I can't help you there but I can't let you paint all Christians with that jaded brush you are using.

(08-24-2015 09:09 AM)TheRevSWT Wrote:  

(08-24-2015 08:55 AM)Buzz Lightyear Lite Wrote:  We will always debate religion and those chaplains on those teams may impact a player a coach or even the team tag alongs.......Not often with words but with their actions. My thanks is to God for having players, coaches, and chaplains who know this in their hearts and live it out for others. However their being present WILL NOT alter the minds and hearts unless the individual wants it to do so. To restrict them would not help anyone accept those who are worried the State is trying to convince an individual to do something that is voluntary.....There is no pressure to be Christian to be first team....Because if there is .....the coach is not Christian either and should not be listened to at all in THAT AREA...I guarantee that if the Chaplains are who they say they are they love and respect your son or daughter just the same be they a believer or not. And they will help them in anyway they can either way.

I think it's a pretty much accepted notion that if the coach is deciding playing time based on religion, he's not part of any real religion.

I also think that is the crux of most of the folks' against it argument (not all... because there are nutjobs on all sides of this fence... the pro chaplain and anti chaplain both), it's what those fringe jobbers are doing.

Sadly today, we have to deal with the lowest common denominator. It's why we have to have warnings on hair dryers not to use in the shower, why people can sue McDonald's for basically serving them HOT coffee. It's why Acetone has to have a warning label not to drink it.

Dang... now that I think of it, none of this junk is the problem with the US today... It's actually just lawyers. Lawyers telling everyone it's not their fault for being stupid, it's everyone else that is at fault.

The tail wagging the dog...I am not sure I like where this nation is going....We have been greatly blessed because when given a lot......a lot was expected and the good ole USA did it......Will we be as good when given little....

As I said Rev.....if those who think more like you and I are wrong we have gained nothing but lost nothing either....if we are right (which we obviously think we are) we have gained EVERYTHING.....

A physician friend of mine who was agnostic told me this......I am not against religion however, cause there is nothing else to replace the good it does despite the bad it does.....pretty well put I would think if you are in his camp.