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Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 07:13 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 07:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

Okay so where do they all go?

I have already said that, multiple times, and you hate the answer that you know I am going to give. So why ask?
Because I don't think it is going to work out that way. Explaining it to me very carefully so as to present your logic should prove interesting.
07-27-2015 07:26 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 07:26 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 07:13 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 07:10 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

Okay so where do they all go?

I have already said that, multiple times, and you hate the answer that you know I am going to give. So why ask?
Because I don't think it is going to work out that way. Explaining it to me very carefully so as to present your logic should prove interesting.

I have already. It proved interesting before, not so much anymore.
07-27-2015 07:28 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

No. Damage claims only arise for breach of contract. If ESPN/Fox exercise contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals there is no breach.
07-27-2015 08:21 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.
07-27-2015 08:23 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
The backdoor out of the GOR, with ESPN/Fox terminating the conference media deals and thus neutering the GOR, may well be true. If so, then it might shed a bit of light on why Boren went public with his statements demanding expansion even though he knows there are no acceptable expansion candidates.

It's been assumed that the Oklahoma has had an invitation to the SEC waiting for it, and now with the B1G getting ready to re-negotiate its media deal maybe Oklahoma has a wink and nod of a B1G invitation as well. If Boren really wants the B1G, then he knows he has to act now to get it, lest the B1G instead start looking east.

So if the backdoor exists, but it requires 5 or so teams to leave, Oklahoma needs Texas' help to get out. They can't publicly tell Texas to blow up the conference, but Boren can stir the pot by getting public discussions about realignment going again. Boren is a politician and he knows how to manipulate the media and the public into doing his bidding. And the message boards have dutifully responded with posters examining every scenario at least a dozen times.
07-27-2015 08:35 PM
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Pony94 Online
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Post: #26
Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
I will say it again Oklahoma and Texas are working in concert together
07-27-2015 08:37 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 08:21 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

No. Damage claims only arise for breach of contract. If ESPN/Fox exercise contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals there is no breach.

Just to be clear, in that instance, the individual members of the conference really have no remedy.

The conference media deals are between the conference and ESPN/Fox. The individual members of the conference are not parties to those agreements, so even if they wanted to assert a claim they have no right to do so (in legal terms, they have no 'standing' to sue). But it wouldn't matter because ESPN/Fox would not breach the contract by exercising their contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals.

The individual members of the Big 12 are parties to the GOR, but there's no breach of that agreement either. The GOR remains in place. However, because the conference does not need any content from the members to fulfill its obligations to ESPN/Fox, the GOR is rendered meaningless and each member retains its full media rights and can take them to any other conference if it moves.
07-27-2015 08:42 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 08:37 PM)Pony94 Wrote:  I will say it again Oklahoma and Texas are working in concert together

Quite possibly true, with Oklahoma kicking Texas in the can telling it to get moving and pick a new conference to call home.
07-27-2015 08:46 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.
07-27-2015 09:26 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.

Still doesn't change the fundamental principle of law that there can be no damages in the absence of a breach. Every lawyer learns that during first semester contracts class in first year of law school.
07-27-2015 09:31 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 09:31 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.

Still doesn't change the fundamental principle of law that there can be no damages in the absence of a breach. Every lawyer learns that during first semester contracts class in first year of law school.

Do you have a copy of the GoR that lists every single detail and none of which states that the values listed by the Conference and protected by the GoR have nothing at all to do with match ups within the big 12 itself across the board?
07-27-2015 11:46 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 11:46 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:31 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 06:56 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Finding them a home in a major conference so that there is no damage claim. That's it.

The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.

Still doesn't change the fundamental principle of law that there can be no damages in the absence of a breach. Every lawyer learns that during first semester contracts class in first year of law school.

Do you have a copy of the GoR that lists every single detail and none of which states that the values listed by the Conference and protected by the GoR have nothing at all to do with match ups within the big 12 itself across the board?

Yes. If you want to know what the Big 12 GOR says, read if for yourself.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/116756116/Grant-of-Rights-pdf

Pay close attention to the first seven lines of Section 1, which is the heart of the GOR agreement.
07-27-2015 11:59 PM
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XLance Online
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Post: #33
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 11:59 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 11:46 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:31 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.

Still doesn't change the fundamental principle of law that there can be no damages in the absence of a breach. Every lawyer learns that during first semester contracts class in first year of law school.

Do you have a copy of the GoR that lists every single detail and none of which states that the values listed by the Conference and protected by the GoR have nothing at all to do with match ups within the big 12 itself across the board?

Yes. If you want to know what the Big 12 GOR says, read if for yourself.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/116756116/Grant-of-Rights-pdf

Pay close attention to the first seven lines of Section 1, which is the heart of the GOR agreement.

Touche'
07-28-2015 07:22 AM
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Lurker Above Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 11:59 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 11:46 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:31 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:26 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:23 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  The remaining team have NO damages claim if there is no breach of contract. Exercising a contractual right to terminate is not actionable.

That's a nice term but an agreement was made for an amount of years and an amount of payment.

Still doesn't change the fundamental principle of law that there can be no damages in the absence of a breach. Every lawyer learns that during first semester contracts class in first year of law school.

Do you have a copy of the GoR that lists every single detail and none of which states that the values listed by the Conference and protected by the GoR have nothing at all to do with match ups within the big 12 itself across the board?

Yes. If you want to know what the Big 12 GOR says, read if for yourself.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/116756116/Grant-of-Rights-pdf

Pay close attention to the first seven lines of Section 1, which is the heart of the GOR agreement.

The reason for the GORs and who now owns the rights conveyed by the member schools is the fourth WHEREAS.
08-01-2015 11:54 PM
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Post: #35
Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-27-2015 08:21 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

No. Damage claims only arise for breach of contract. If ESPN/Fox exercise contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals there is no breach.

Wouldn't such a reduction of teams (failure to maintain a membership level), is a breach by the B12; a breach which triggers termination. Those defectors would be the proximate cause of that breach, and the resultant termination of the conference's contract. As such, the remaining partners would have a cause of action against those partners whose direct actions led to the breach by the partnership. What about the concept in law of "tortious interference."
08-02-2015 09:48 AM
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Post: #36
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-25-2015 09:21 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Some say yes. Some say no.

I've heard that the contract is ironclad and I've heard that OK state law prevents such a contract from having influence over public institutions.

So where is all this smoke coming from? Boren's comments started a firestorm. Cowherd's tweet made some take notice, but I have serious doubts about his direct knowledge of the situation. However, message boards are filled with people who claim to know insiders and they all seem to say moves are coming soon. I have to say I've seen some of the same ideas from people who are totally disconnected and have no motivation to be misleading. Those same people aren't terribly public with their thoughts.

What is a realistic timeline of OU's departure from the Big 12? Could we see an announcement within the next few months or will it not be until 2025?

Do the networks have a motivation for moving OU now or would they rather try to save the Big 12? Where do the goals of cost cutting and increasing live content meet?

These are all questions we've been discussing for a while now to varying degrees, but I just want to see some comprehensive thoughts on it if anyone out there would like to share. For me, it's the 'not knowing' that is driving me nuts.


That is a very interesting question. I have no idea about the fine tuning of the law, but here is what I know for certain: If I am Boss of ESPN or Fox Sports, and any 2 from among Texas, OU, and KU leave the Big 12, I would have 0 interest in paying the rest of that league more than half what it now makes. At that point, I would demand the Big 12 renegotiate.
08-02-2015 10:49 AM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(08-02-2015 09:48 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:21 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

No. Damage claims only arise for breach of contract. If ESPN/Fox exercise contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals there is no breach.

Wouldn't such a reduction of teams (failure to maintain a membership level), is a breach by the B12; a breach which triggers termination. Those defectors would be the proximate cause of that breach, and the resultant termination of the conference's contract. As such, the remaining partners would have a cause of action against those partners whose direct actions led to the breach by the partnership. What about the concept in law of "tortious interference."

Let's get a bit more specific then. A breach only occurs if a party to a contract fails to do something they promised. If the the Big 12 promised to keep at least 'X' number of teams in the conference, and failed to do so, then yes, there would be a breach. On the other hand if the contract just gives ESPN/Fox a right to terminate if the number of teams in the Big 12 falls below a certain number - and the Big 12 made no promise to have at least 'X' members, then no, there is no breach. It's a subtle point but a very important one for contract law purposes.

But let's say the Big 12 did make a promise to have at least 10 members and two members leave - which means a breach did occur. The contract is between the conference and ESPN/Fox. A breach by one party - the conference - would allow the other party to the contract - ESPN/Fox - to claim damages. The individual conference members are not parties to the contract, so they have no claim whatsoever.

The right way for individual members to approach it would be to look at the bylaws of the Conference, which is essentially a contract among the member institutions. The bylaws restrict a school's right to withdraw, and the remaining schools could raise a claim that the withdrawing schools breached the bylaws. However, schools can't be forced to permanently stay in a conference, so that's why many conferences adopted exit fees as a way to stop teams from leaving.

Using the bylaws may give the remaining teams an avenue to raise a claim against the schools that leave, but they can bring no claim under either the conference media deal or the GOR.

Tortious interference with contract probably doesn't apply. Here's when it would.

Let's say Fox wants to get Texas in the B1G and says to Texas, "Go ahead and tell ESPN you want to cancel the LHN contract and offer to get out of it by paying $25 million - we (Fox) will cover it for you."

Tortious interference involves a third person, who is not a party to the contract, wrongfully inducing a party to terminate its contract. In the scenario where one or more teams leave the conference, I can see how someone might think tortious interference. But if all that happens is a team leaves its conference, it's hard to see a tortious interference claim. There doesn't seem to be any collusion or underhandedness about it. That's not to say such a claim may be raised - just that unless there's more to the story I don't think it's successful

Think about what happened when Maryland left for the B1G. Maryland left the ACC and the ACC raised claims about exit fees, notice and a host of other issues. The ACC did not raise a claim against the B1G for tortious interference because Delany was careful to say that they had no discussions with MD about exit fees and the exit fee was Maryland's problem. Nevertheless, the B1G paid Maryland a special travel fee of about $30 million to offset Maryland's higher travel cost to B1G locations. That amount coincidentally wound up being about the same as the negotiated exit fee Maryland paid to the ACC. A fine bit of lawyering by the B1G, I'd say.
08-02-2015 09:20 PM
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CintiFan Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(08-02-2015 10:49 AM)WoadBlue Wrote:  
(07-25-2015 09:21 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  Some say yes. Some say no.

I've heard that the contract is ironclad and I've heard that OK state law prevents such a contract from having influence over public institutions.

So where is all this smoke coming from? Boren's comments started a firestorm. Cowherd's tweet made some take notice, but I have serious doubts about his direct knowledge of the situation. However, message boards are filled with people who claim to know insiders and they all seem to say moves are coming soon. I have to say I've seen some of the same ideas from people who are totally disconnected and have no motivation to be misleading. Those same people aren't terribly public with their thoughts.

What is a realistic timeline of OU's departure from the Big 12? Could we see an announcement within the next few months or will it not be until 2025?

Do the networks have a motivation for moving OU now or would they rather try to save the Big 12? Where do the goals of cost cutting and increasing live content meet?

These are all questions we've been discussing for a while now to varying degrees, but I just want to see some comprehensive thoughts on it if anyone out there would like to share. For me, it's the 'not knowing' that is driving me nuts.


That is a very interesting question. I have no idea about the fine tuning of the law, but here is what I know for certain: If I am Boss of ESPN or Fox Sports, and any 2 from among Texas, OU, and KU leave the Big 12, I would have 0 interest in paying the rest of that league more than half what it now makes. At that point, I would demand the Big 12 renegotiate.

I agree with you. Most posters think like fans, no matter what the question. But fans were not negotiating the media deals and GOR. If you want to speculate about what's in the Big 12 media deals with ESPN/Fox, you need to think like a cable TV executive and a conference commissioner. Both of them, of course, have very good attorneys helping to think of all the scenarios that could occur during the life of the deal and think of how their client can be protected in those scenarios.

If I were representing ESPN/Fox, I'd certainly be concerned about having to continue paying $200 million to a watered down version of the Big 12.
08-02-2015 09:27 PM
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #39
Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(08-02-2015 09:20 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 09:48 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 08:21 PM)CintiFan Wrote:  
(07-27-2015 09:49 AM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  Even if the GoR is done away with, wouldn't the remaining schools have a damage claim? What is the way around that?

No. Damage claims only arise for breach of contract. If ESPN/Fox exercise contractual rights to terminate the conference media deals there is no breach.

Wouldn't such a reduction of teams (failure to maintain a membership level), is a breach by the B12; a breach which triggers termination. Those defectors would be the proximate cause of that breach, and the resultant termination of the conference's contract. As such, the remaining partners would have a cause of action against those partners whose direct actions led to the breach by the partnership. What about the concept in law of "tortious interference."

Let's get a bit more specific then. A breach only occurs if a party to a contract fails to do something they promised. If the the Big 12 promised to keep at least 'X' number of teams in the conference, and failed to do so, then yes, there would be a breach. On the other hand if the contract just gives ESPN/Fox a right to terminate if the number of teams in the Big 12 falls below a certain number - and the Big 12 made no promise to have at least 'X' members, then no, there is no breach. It's a subtle point but a very important one for contract law purposes.

But let's say the Big 12 did make a promise to have at least 10 members and two members leave - which means a breach did occur. The contract is between the conference and ESPN/Fox. A breach by one party - the conference - would allow the other party to the contract - ESPN/Fox - to claim damages. The individual conference members are not parties to the contract, so they have no claim whatsoever.

The right way for individual members to approach it would be to look at the bylaws of the Conference, which is essentially a contract among the member institutions. The bylaws restrict a school's right to withdraw, and the remaining schools could raise a claim that the withdrawing schools breached the bylaws. However, schools can't be forced to permanently stay in a conference, so that's why many conferences adopted exit fees as a way to stop teams from leaving.

Using the bylaws may give the remaining teams an avenue to raise a claim against the schools that leave, but they can bring no claim under either the conference media deal or the GOR.

Tortious interference with contract probably doesn't apply. Here's when it would.

Let's say Fox wants to get Texas in the B1G and says to Texas, "Go ahead and tell ESPN you want to cancel the LHN contract and offer to get out of it by paying $25 million - we (Fox) will cover it for you."

Tortious interference involves a third person, who is not a party to the contract, wrongfully inducing a party to terminate its contract. In the scenario where one or more teams leave the conference, I can see how someone might think tortious interference. But if all that happens is a team leaves its conference, it's hard to see a tortious interference claim. There doesn't seem to be any collusion or underhandedness about it. That's not to say such a claim may be raised - just that unless there's more to the story I don't think it's successful

Think about what happened when Maryland left for the B1G. Maryland left the ACC and the ACC raised claims about exit fees, notice and a host of other issues. The ACC did not raise a claim against the B1G for tortious interference because Delany was careful to say that they had no discussions with MD about exit fees and the exit fee was Maryland's problem. Nevertheless, the B1G paid Maryland a special travel fee of about $30 million to offset Maryland's higher travel cost to B1G locations. That amount coincidentally wound up being about the same as the negotiated exit fee Maryland paid to the ACC. A fine bit of lawyering by the B1G, I'd say.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm discussing this topic with some B12 friends on another board.
08-02-2015 09:50 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Is Oklahoma capable of getting out of the Big 12 before the GOR is up?
(07-26-2015 11:20 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Very interesting. Two different interpretations of this in one night from two attorneys on two different boards. The other was a Baylor attorney who was interpreting the Big 12 Contract and GOR. I'm not saying you are wrong here either. You could well be right. Suffice it to say it's far from over. I can tell you that Oklahoma has been in talks with the SEC via Missouri. How far along they are I'm not sure about. They have at least applied for membership or they wouldn't be having the in depth talks about finances, legalities, etc. That doesn't mean that they have a membership offer yet, but at this stage they could have. So things are quite interesting and the timelines are still quite unclear.

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08-03-2015 06:06 PM
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