(07-07-2015 09:19 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 08:42 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 08:22 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  The column is trite but Trammel's point is unassailable. Some of these teams - particularly in the market-rich American - are going to have to force their way into the party. They're going to have to win big games, build great facilities, cultivate large followings, and buy their way onto the big table, as it were.

And they're also going to have to get very, very lucky - just as did TCU.

And if they aren't as fortunate as TCU, those facilities and followings that they've developed will help them make their current conference that much better.

Agreed. G5 teams hoping for a jump have to take a "if you build it they will come" approach. It's a bit of a risk, because they may never come, but a "we'll build it when they come" strategy is sure to fail unless you get very lucky.

There are quite a few G5 schools that have invested in their football stadiums and acted like a P5 program, but that isn't why TCU got in and the others didn't.

It's not just football stadiums, but overall facilities and athletic budgets. TCU was a very big spender relative to other "non-BCS" schools when you look at athletic budgets, especially football.

Here is an article from early 2012 on 2010/11 expenses before we joined the Big 12. Only 11 programs spent more than we did on football- Auburn, Ohio State, Alabama, Florida, Notre Dame, Texas, Miami, Arkansas, Wisconsin, Michigan, OU. That's it. And that is before we joined the Big 12 and were living on a MWC salary. It was almost twice as much as the next non-BCS school on that list, UCF (22.6 million versus 12.7 million).

A lot was made of TCU being in the right place at the right time, but if you are a Big 12 board member, that level of financial commitment had to be impressive.

Kind of funny seeing a clown sports reporter admonishing and lecturing universities about "act like a big time program". Sheesh.

For the last 40 years BYU has been drawing large crowds and winning games.

Where has that gotten us?

(07-07-2015 10:24 AM)HawkeyeCoug Wrote:  For the last 40 years BYU has been drawing large crowds and winning games.

Where has that gotten us?

If you believe the scuttlebutt, it has gotten you thinking you are too big for your britches.

(07-07-2015 09:23 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 08:49 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 12:32 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 12:19 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-06-2015 11:57 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  *IF* TCU hadn't have turned their fortunes around during its minimal time in CUSA it wouldn't be where it is. Then they played that card very well to advance to where they are now.

TCU's turnaround was inevitable the day SMU pulled the plug on their program.

Patterson elevated TCU up another level from there....

TCU was greatly helped by the presence of Barnett Shale being under its campus and around Fort Worth. TCU landowners were greatly enriched by their mineral rights, which helped financially propel the Horned Frog football program. Seems if football needed something, the money was there. Before Barnett, TCU didn't have the wealth it now does.

Barnett Shale was big, very big for TCU and all of Fort Worth in fact. But even before Barnett Shale, dating back to the years immediately after the breakup of the SWC, TCU had decided to play the arms race game. At the time of the breakup, there was an internal debate of whether to accept second class status or make the financial and infrastructure commitment to take the next step. The school's leaders chose the latter. Barnett made playing that game easier, but the mentality change pre-dated the boom.

This is where Houston made their big mistake. Those schools understood the college landscape was evolving and that being a "have not" would eventually threaten a schools continued inclusion within the highest level of college football. The Houston administration was not nearly as ambitious or forward thinking at the time and we fell about 10 or more years behind schools like TCU or Louisville who were making big investments in facilities and increasing their budgetary commitment to athletics. The current administration is just the opposite and has made up much of the lost ground---hopefully, it's not too late.

Pre 1998 our administration gave lip service to athletics. Since then it has been a 180 degree change. That is the big difference between the old TCU and the new TCU.

Yes, we were lucky, but we made our own luck. Why is it schools like Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Washington State, etc, etc, etc, get free passes and others don't? That is the bigger question.

Acting like a big time program never got Louisville in. Wins in The Fiesta, Orange and Sugar never got Louisville in. Selling out a 55K stadium with over 45K season ticket holders and a waiting list with another 10K begging for tickets never got Louisville in.

What got Louisville in was Maryland jumping to The Big Ten. If Delaney and Company hadn't invited The Terps to leave The ACC, Louisville still wouldn't be in.

Acting, performing or even succeeding "like a big time program" means squat. Half of the so-called Power 5 haven't acted like big time programs in decades. For programs like UCF, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, ECU, UConn and Houston to scratch and claw for every dollar they get while some teams in the so-called Power 5 receive what amounts to a yearly welfare check is criminal.

What gets a program in? Luck? Circumstance? Networking? Ass Kissing? Who can say?

I will tell you that in Louisville's case we got lucky. Sure all the talking heads now point and say see what they did, see what Jurich built. The reality is The ACC went against every thing in it's DNA to invite Louisville over UConn. If The ACC acted like The ACC always did UConn would be in The ACC and Louisville would still be on the outside looking in.

I usually enjoy Berry Tramel's columns. He is way off base on this one.
CJ

(07-07-2015 10:42 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Acting like a big time program never got Louisville in. Wins in The Fiesta, Orange and Sugar never got Louisville in. Selling out a 55K stadium with over 45K season ticket holders and a waiting list with another 10K begging for tickets never got Louisville in.

What got Louisville in was Maryland jumping to The Big Ten. If Delaney and Company hadn't invited The Terps to leave The ACC, Louisville still wouldn't be in.

Acting, performing or even succeeding "like a big time program" means squat. Half of the so-called Power 5 haven't acted like big time programs in decades. For programs like UCF, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, ECU, UConn and Houston to scratch and claw for every dollar they get while some teams in the so-called Power 5 receive what amounts to a yearly welfare check is criminal.

What gets a program in? Luck? Circumstance? Networking? Ass Kissing? Who can say?

I will tell you that in Louisville's case we got lucky. Sure all the talking heads now point and say see what they did, see what Jurich built. The reality is The ACC went against every thing in it's DNA to invite Louisville over UConn. If The ACC acted like The ACC always did UConn would be in The ACC and Louisville would still be on the outside looking in.

I usually enjoy Berry Tramel's columns. He is way off base on this one.
CJ

Of course there has to be opportunity, but schools need to be in position to take advantage of the opportunity. That's Tramel's point. If Louisville wasn't committed like it was, it probably gets passed over.

Timing is everything.

(07-07-2015 10:42 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Acting like a big time program never got Louisville in. Wins in The Fiesta, Orange and Sugar never got Louisville in. Selling out a 55K stadium with over 45K season ticket holders and a waiting list with another 10K begging for tickets never got Louisville in.

What got Louisville in was Maryland jumping to The Big Ten. If Delaney and Company hadn't invited The Terps to leave The ACC, Louisville still wouldn't be in.

Acting, performing or even succeeding "like a big time program" means squat. Half of the so-called Power 5 haven't acted like big time programs in decades. For programs like UCF, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, ECU, UConn and Houston to scratch and claw for every dollar they get while some teams in the so-called Power 5 receive what amounts to a yearly welfare check is criminal.

What gets a program in? Luck? Circumstance? Networking? Ass Kissing? Who can say?

I will tell you that in Louisville's case we got lucky. Sure all the talking heads now point and say see what they did, see what Jurich built. The reality is The ACC went against every thing in it's DNA to invite Louisville over UConn. If The ACC acted like The ACC always did UConn would be in The ACC and Louisville would still be on the outside looking in.

I usually enjoy Berry Tramel's columns. He is way off base on this one.
CJ

Agree 100%. The majority of the current P5 schools got there, not by "acting like a P5," but because they were born into the right conference 100 years ago, or whenever.

Hell, only 3 teams that weren't in the original BCS AQ conferences have broken the code, even today: Utah, TCU and Louisville. In all 3 cases, they git in as the last team, to round out the numbers, and b/c those 3 conferences couldn't steal an existing P5 member.

To get in now, you don't just have to act like a P5 school. You have to emulate the top football schools, and do something a great number of current P5 schools have NEVER done.

There are about 15-25 programs carrying the rest of the college football financial structure. You have to have a couple of those in your conference, or you're toast.

It's a shame, b/c there are a number of schools that, based on what they have done recently without similar resources, could probably enter the P5 and do substantially better than a lot of the middling and lower tier P5 schools.

(07-07-2015 09:57 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Kind of funny seeing a clown sports reporter admonishing and lecturing universities about "act like a big time program". Sheesh.

Bingo. That is the problem with his take. He sounds like a pompous Burger King assistant manager trying to big-time a kid who comes in for a job interview.

(07-07-2015 07:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 06:13 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 01:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  It's supposed to be a weak take. It's incendiary and simply intends to cause counter to any claims that there are schools ready for the big 12.

The difference between TCU and Boise State? Location and Distance. He isn't talking to Boise State with this anyways and you likely know that. He is talking to UCF and their garbage stadium. He is talking to Memphis and their team full of thugs that havn't done what TCU has done. He is talking to Houston that had a chance at greatness but failed just a step below. Houston is close but they didn't get it done and that one single demerit will be what is held against them.

ECU matches a lot of what he brings up but they don't have that top level resume that TCU did. They didn't break through. ECU is going to be a top brand for the AAC as it distances itself from the other mid majors.


No one is being added, it's all just drama meant to bring the pot to a boil. Treating it as if there is anything more to it than that is a waste.

You mean that UCF stadium that is roughly the same size as TCU's? You mean that UCF program that has won as many BCS bowl games as TCU? Haters are going to hate. When you're a fan of Iowa I guess that's all you got is pretending to be elite and putting down others, it certainly isn't celebrating any Iowa football championships now is it? Que more ignorant put downs in 3,2,1..............

Size isn't everything son. To even think that your high school look alike stadium is anywhere close to the quality of the TCU stadium is a testament to true ignorance.

Guess I hit a nerve, caused you to just start having diarrhea of the fingers?

There are two differences between UCF's stadium and Doak Campbell (fsu): 1 they have a brick facade over their aluminum stadium, 2 they're done building there's. Out of curiosity, have you ever actually attended a game at UCF?

This guy might want to do some research. Just about every school in the AAC is improving every aspect of our schools and we are all doing it with pennies compared to what P5's earn. We work harder then anyone while most P5's collect their mailbox money.

(07-07-2015 07:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 06:13 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 01:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  It's supposed to be a weak take. It's incendiary and simply intends to cause counter to any claims that there are schools ready for the big 12.

The difference between TCU and Boise State? Location and Distance. He isn't talking to Boise State with this anyways and you likely know that. He is talking to UCF and their garbage stadium. He is talking to Memphis and their team full of thugs that havn't done what TCU has done. He is talking to Houston that had a chance at greatness but failed just a step below. Houston is close but they didn't get it done and that one single demerit will be what is held against them.

ECU matches a lot of what he brings up but they don't have that top level resume that TCU did. They didn't break through. ECU is going to be a top brand for the AAC as it distances itself from the other mid majors.


No one is being added, it's all just drama meant to bring the pot to a boil. Treating it as if there is anything more to it than that is a waste.

You mean that UCF stadium that is roughly the same size as TCU's? You mean that UCF program that has won as many BCS bowl games as TCU? Haters are going to hate. When you're a fan of Iowa I guess that's all you got is pretending to be elite and putting down others, it certainly isn't celebrating any Iowa football championships now is it? Que more ignorant put downs in 3,2,1..............

Size isn't everything son. To even think that your high school look alike stadium is anywhere close to the quality of the TCU stadium is a testament to true ignorance.

Guess I hit a nerve, caused you to just start having diarrhea of the fingers?

Right on Que............as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

I'm not your son. I'm not suggesting that BHN stadium is the TAJ Mahal, however, under the circumstances with limited budgetary constraints and building a new arena at the same time it was the best UCF could do. True ignorance is not knowing the history of which you speak, do you know anything about Amon Carter stadium? It was built in post depression era to help stimulant the economy, with an original capacity of 22k, it has been added onto multiple times over the years, but it really (up until the latest renovation) has never,ever, been anything to right home about. It was this last renovation(2012) that helped TCU into the b-12, prior to that it really wasn't very nice at all. Show me a high school stadium that is the equivalent of BHNS, anywhere in the country (I've never seen one, so let's just see if these are more hollow words). If you start a sentence calling someone Son without knowing anything about them it is proof positive that a nerve was in fact struck within you based upon some opinion. Truth is truth whether you use condescending terms or not. I've seen your posts prior to this and you appear to be the kind of poster that attacks people personally, not their opinions with facts just hyperbole. Another smokescreen.............

(07-07-2015 09:31 AM)HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Wrote:  Iowa can celebrate the 1921 National Championship, along with Nile Kinnick and they have a recent Orange Bowl win. They are not the upper echelon of the Big Ten, but they rest securely in the second tier.

Right or wrong, Iowa was a founding member. Membership has its Privileges. They do not need to prove their "worth." In addition to that, no league can have all "great" teams. Just not feasible in a sport where the majority of your games are played against each other. So for your non-marquee teams, you want them to provide good support, a good market presence, or both. Iowa does that.

If you apply for a partner position at a new law firm, it doesn't matter if you are a better attorney than the old guy who was a founding partner: his position is secure and he is not going anywhere. What matters is what you specifically bring to the table and how you can help grow the company.

(07-07-2015 10:53 AM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 10:42 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Acting like a big time program never got Louisville in. Wins in The Fiesta, Orange and Sugar never got Louisville in. Selling out a 55K stadium with over 45K season ticket holders and a waiting list with another 10K begging for tickets never got Louisville in.

What got Louisville in was Maryland jumping to The Big Ten. If Delaney and Company hadn't invited The Terps to leave The ACC, Louisville still wouldn't be in.

Acting, performing or even succeeding "like a big time program" means squat. Half of the so-called Power 5 haven't acted like big time programs in decades. For programs like UCF, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, ECU, UConn and Houston to scratch and claw for every dollar they get while some teams in the so-called Power 5 receive what amounts to a yearly welfare check is criminal.

What gets a program in? Luck? Circumstance? Networking? Ass Kissing? Who can say?

I will tell you that in Louisville's case we got lucky. Sure all the talking heads now point and say see what they did, see what Jurich built. The reality is The ACC went against every thing in it's DNA to invite Louisville over UConn. If The ACC acted like The ACC always did UConn would be in The ACC and Louisville would still be on the outside looking in.

I usually enjoy Berry Tramel's columns. He is way off base on this one.
CJ

Agree 100%. The majority of the current P5 schools got there, not by "acting like a P5," but because they were born into the right conference 100 years ago, or whenever.

Hell, only 3 teams that weren't in the original BCS AQ conferences have broken the code, even today: Utah, TCU and Louisville. In all 3 cases, they git in as the last team, to round out the numbers, and b/c those 3 conferences couldn't steal an existing P5 member.

To get in now, you don't just have to act like a P5 school. You have to emulate the top football schools, and do something a great number of current P5 schools have NEVER done.

There are about 15-25 programs carrying the rest of the college football financial structure. You have to have a couple of those in your conference, or you're toast.

It's a shame, b/c there are a number of schools that, based on what they have done recently without similar resources, could probably enter the P5 and do substantially better than a lot of the middling and lower tier P5 schools.

You nailed this...

(07-07-2015 12:19 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(07-06-2015 11:57 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  *IF* TCU hadn't have turned their fortunes around during its minimal time in CUSA it wouldn't be where it is. Then they played that card very well to advance to where they are now.

TCU's turnaround was inevitable the day SMU pulled the plug on their program.

Patterson elevated TCU up another level from there....

Not really. Tcu could have athletically languished no matter events at smu.

Tcu athletic performance has been remarkable, esp for a small-mid sized university. However, they made a decision to pursue it and had an astonishing number of very wealthy people put up a lot of cash.

There can't be that many more spots left in the P5, if any. I believe the only possible avenue to joining the P5 is for a G5 conference to set a standard for its' membership that is equal to those of the P5s, and dismiss any of its' programs that cannot live up to that standard, and replace them with another G5 program that can. It would not be regional, or travel friendly, but if all the members are committed to paying their coaching staff at the level of the P5s, maintaining their athletic budgets at the level of the P5s, scheduling OOC games at the level of P5s, and building their facilities to the level of P5s, then that conference could not be dismissed for long. It may end up being a conference of only 8 teams, but I think it could be done.

I think half of the AAC is the close to being able to do this, but the other half of their conference is made up of universities with very small student bodies, and will never be able to grow to the size needed. Minimum $2.2 million salary for head football coaches across the conference. Minimum 50,000 seat stadiums across the conference, with an average attendance of over 37,000. Minimum $65 million athletic budgets across the conference. (To my knowledge U Conn is the only current G5 program with an athletic budget that meets this standard.) No paycheck body bag games on the road. Only home and home series with P5s. A P5 standard for training facilities across the conference. The biggest catch to this approach is that no member is going to vote to get kicked out if they stumble.

I believe these programs are the closest to reaching the standards. All have athletic budgets over $40 million, and stadiums within 13,000 seats of 50,000. If they shack free of the other programs in their conferences and band together they could make up the 6th power conference...

Just my opinion.

BYU (65,000 seat stadium, $54.6 million athletic budget, $NA million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 57,000)
Boise State (37,000 seat stadium, $45.7 million athletic budget, $1 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 32,500)
UCF (45,000 seat stadium, $49.7 million athletic budget, $1.8 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 37,800)
Cincinnati (40,000 seat stadium, $59.1 million athletic budget, $2.2 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 28,800)
U Conn (44,000 seat stadium, $71.5 million athletic budget, $1.5 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 27,400)
Houston (40,000 seat stadium, $40.3 million athletic budget, $1 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 28,300)
Memphis (62,000 seat stadium, $50.2 million athletic budget, $1 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 33,800)
South Florida (44,000 seat stadium, $48.3 million athletic budget, $1.15 head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 30,600)

I believe these programs are also close.

ECU (50,000 seat stadium, $36.5 million athletic budget, $1.25 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 44,700)
Fresno State (41,000 seat stadium, $36 million athletic budget, $1.4 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 34,800)
Colorado State (new 40,000 seat stadium, $38.7 million athletic budget, $1.5 million head coach salary, 2014 attendance average 26,500)

The main reason TCU received a big12 invitation was that they could join immediately. WVU had to pay a stiff penalty to leave the old Big East, but TCU was between conferences and was an easy add.

Yes, they won a bowl game and (with all the money in Texas) built a new stadium, but that didn't matter at the time.

(07-07-2015 12:49 PM)mac6115cd Wrote:  The main reason TCU received a big12 invitation was that they could join immediately. WVU had to pay a stiff penalty to leave the old Big East, but TCU was between conferences and was an easy add.

That helped, but Fox, their primary rights holder at the time, wanted another Texas team to replace Texas A&M. And it was said the other teams wanted another one to play more games in Texas, and with TCU being in the Metroplex, that helped. AND they were immediately available, AND had a tremendous amount of recent success. Plus, and this is minor, but possibly worth mentioning. At the time TCU was invited, the Big East had not yet imploded. I only point this out because through everything else, allowing a THIRD (then) BCS conference into the state was probably not in their best interests either. So it all added up to TCU being the logical choice.

(07-07-2015 10:49 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 10:42 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  Acting like a big time program never got Louisville in. Wins in The Fiesta, Orange and Sugar never got Louisville in. Selling out a 55K stadium with over 45K season ticket holders and a waiting list with another 10K begging for tickets never got Louisville in.

What got Louisville in was Maryland jumping to The Big Ten. If Delaney and Company hadn't invited The Terps to leave The ACC, Louisville still wouldn't be in.

Acting, performing or even succeeding "like a big time program" means squat. Half of the so-called Power 5 haven't acted like big time programs in decades. For programs like UCF, USF, Cincinnati, Memphis, ECU, UConn and Houston to scratch and claw for every dollar they get while some teams in the so-called Power 5 receive what amounts to a yearly welfare check is criminal.

What gets a program in? Luck? Circumstance? Networking? Ass Kissing? Who can say?

I will tell you that in Louisville's case we got lucky. Sure all the talking heads now point and say see what they did, see what Jurich built. The reality is The ACC went against every thing in it's DNA to invite Louisville over UConn. If The ACC acted like The ACC always did UConn would be in The ACC and Louisville would still be on the outside looking in.

I usually enjoy Berry Tramel's columns. He is way off base on this one.
CJ

Of course there has to be opportunity, but schools need to be in position to take advantage of the opportunity. That's Tramel's point. If Louisville wasn't committed like it was, it probably gets passed over.

(07-07-2015 11:17 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 07:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 06:13 AM)NestaKnight1 Wrote:  

(07-07-2015 01:33 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  It's supposed to be a weak take. It's incendiary and simply intends to cause counter to any claims that there are schools ready for the big 12.

The difference between TCU and Boise State? Location and Distance. He isn't talking to Boise State with this anyways and you likely know that. He is talking to UCF and their garbage stadium. He is talking to Memphis and their team full of thugs that havn't done what TCU has done. He is talking to Houston that had a chance at greatness but failed just a step below. Houston is close but they didn't get it done and that one single demerit will be what is held against them.

ECU matches a lot of what he brings up but they don't have that top level resume that TCU did. They didn't break through. ECU is going to be a top brand for the AAC as it distances itself from the other mid majors.


No one is being added, it's all just drama meant to bring the pot to a boil. Treating it as if there is anything more to it than that is a waste.

You mean that UCF stadium that is roughly the same size as TCU's? You mean that UCF program that has won as many BCS bowl games as TCU? Haters are going to hate. When you're a fan of Iowa I guess that's all you got is pretending to be elite and putting down others, it certainly isn't celebrating any Iowa football championships now is it? Que more ignorant put downs in 3,2,1..............

Size isn't everything son. To even think that your high school look alike stadium is anywhere close to the quality of the TCU stadium is a testament to true ignorance.

Guess I hit a nerve, caused you to just start having diarrhea of the fingers?

Right on Que............as predictable as the sun rising in the East.

I'm not your son. I'm not suggesting that BHN stadium is the TAJ Mahal, however, under the circumstances with limited budgetary constraints and building a new arena at the same time it was the best UCF could do. True ignorance is not knowing the history of which you speak, do you know anything about Amon Carter stadium? It was built in post depression era to help stimulant the economy, with an original capacity of 22k, it has been added onto multiple times over the years, but it really (up until the latest renovation) has never,ever, been anything to right home about. It was this last renovation(2012) that helped TCU into the b-12, prior to that it really wasn't very nice at all. Show me a high school stadium that is the equivalent of BHNS, anywhere in the country (I've never seen one, so let's just see if these are more hollow words). If you start a sentence calling someone Son without knowing anything about them it is proof positive that a nerve was in fact struck within you based upon some opinion. Truth is truth whether you use condescending terms or not. I've seen your posts prior to this and you appear to be the kind of poster that attacks people personally, not their opinions with facts just hyperbole. Another smokescreen.............

Yes, Amon Carter Stadium was originally built during the Depression and added on to many times. However, it was completely torn down and a new stadium was built in its place. It is not just a redo of the old stadium.

And for argument sake, I think UCF would be great for the Big 12.