Didn't say kill.ASUN is having major membership problems.Anyone recall those NCAA rules? Is it 6 or 8 teams required for tourney participation?

Double post

(04-25-2015 05:55 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Didn't say kill.ASUN is having major membership problems.Anyone recall those NCAA rules? Is it 6 or 8 teams required for tourney participation?

It's actually 7 members required to be a voting multi-sport conference. In addition to that, the conference has to sponsor three team sports in each gender (unless if one is FCS or FBS Football, then the only other men's sport that is required is basketball. NKU has been transitional to this point, so it has not counted as one of the seven.

If anyone else leaves, there is one reasonable out: NJIT. If two or more schools not named NKU leave, then you get into less likely options such as UAB, UALR, UT-Arlington, New Orleans, etc. The only Big South schools that would make sense would be all the non-football members in the Carolinas: Winthrop, High Point, and UNC-Asheville. It really only makes sense for them to move if the Atlantic Sun takes such heavy losses that it would mean splitting one NCAA unit 7-8 ways instead of 11-12 ways. That difference would only be about $60-$70,000 annually, and travel costs are higher in the Atlantic Sun due to the Florida members.

(04-25-2015 06:36 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 05:55 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  Didn't say kill.ASUN is having major membership problems.Anyone recall those NCAA rules? Is it 6 or 8 teams required for tourney participation?

It's actually 7 members required to be a voting multi-sport conference. In addition to that, the conference has to sponsor three team sports in each gender (unless if one is FCS or FBS Football

A-Sun might be able to sponsor football in the future. With some D2 upgrades like North Alabama, West Florida, West Georgia, Valdosta State as upgrades with Kennesaw State. Plus you have Stetson and Jacksonville that have football, and North Florida, FGCU and Lipscomb thinking of adding football in the future, and might offer Belmont as a football only if they want football. If you move Murray State there? Where would Murray State park their football? Would they be able to keep it in OVC? If not? They could have it in A-Sun for football only.
Carson-Newman and Catwaba could be brought up as well.

Stetson and Jacksonville are non-scholarship, although I've read that Jacksonville has considered upgrading. The problem with Division II upgrades is that you're asking the school to take on at least 54 additional scholarships, and that is a big burden.

For a private school like Lipscomb starting a football program from scratch where tuition is $39,000 per year, awarding a full 63 scholarships is roughly $2.5 Million in scholarship costs, plus the cost of any women's sports used to offset football, which will include another $2.5 Million in scholarships. For a school with just under 3,000 undergraduates, adding 4% to your enrollment without any new tuition revenue is a big pill to swallow. I guess Lipscomb could also use LP Field like Tennessee State does if it really got into a pinch for facilities, but that would be far from ideal.

If the Atlantic Sun wants football, it would be best to start taking in disenchanted schools from the MEAC like Delaware State, Howard, and Norfolk State. Those 3 plus Kennesaw State give the Atlantic Sun 4 for scholarship football. If Jacksonville and Stetson can swing the upgrade, that gives them six. As a bonus, Delaware State and Howard sponsor some sports that the Atlantic Sun does and the MEAC does not, so they can assimilate with the conference fairly quickly.

once you have at least four full members, you can get others to join as football-onlies.

(04-27-2015 10:06 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Stetson and Jacksonville are non-scholarship, although I've read that Jacksonville has considered upgrading. The problem with Division II upgrades is that you're asking the school to take on at least 54 additional scholarships, and that is a big burden.

For a private school like Lipscomb starting a football program from scratch where tuition is $39,000 per year, awarding a full 63 scholarships is roughly $2.5 Million in scholarship costs, plus the cost of any women's sports used to offset football, which will include another $2.5 Million in scholarships. For a school with just under 3,000 undergraduates, adding 4% to your enrollment without any new tuition revenue is a big pill to swallow. I guess Lipscomb could also use LP Field like Tennessee State does if it really got into a pinch for facilities, but that would be far from ideal.

If the Atlantic Sun wants football, it would be best to start taking in disenchanted schools from the MEAC like Delaware State, Howard, and Norfolk State. Those 3 plus Kennesaw State give the Atlantic Sun 4 for scholarship football. If Jacksonville and Stetson can swing the upgrade, that gives them six. As a bonus, Delaware State and Howard sponsor some sports that the Atlantic Sun does and the MEAC does not, so they can assimilate with the conference fairly quickly.

Some Gulf South Conference schools have been talking about moving to D1. North Alabama is ready for the move.

North Alabama
West Georgia
West Alabama
Valdosta State
West Florida

North Alabama could expand their stadium easily to get to 15000 seats. West Florida is building a 15000 seat stadium.

Delta State will try to get into the Southland.

Gulf South Conference was home to the likes of Troy and Jacksonville State at one point.

A-Sun could have some good candidates.

Mercer was going to start playing in the Pioneer League when they got the call to join Southern Conference. I am surprise that Southern did not give a call to North Alabama who could have given them a proven winner in football when East Tennessee State and Mercer gonna take some years to build their product.

North Alabama's Division I aspirations have been dead for a while now. West Alabama is simply not Division I material. West Georgia, Valdosta State, and West Florida would be more likely, but UWF will need a few years of growth before moving to Division I since its football program is new.

No one goes from Division II to the Southern Conference - it's just not how the SoCon operates. The Southland needs UIW and ACU to finish their transition before adding anyone else from Division II. NCAA rules limit the number of non-Division I opponents a team can play, so the Atlantic Sun will want to avoid something like this happening:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...ence-games

Effectively this limits a conference to two transitioning schools, but then a team can't have any other non-Division I opponents on its schedule, even for exhibition games.

(04-28-2015 05:56 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  North Alabama's Division I aspirations have been dead for a while now. West Alabama is simply not Division I material. West Georgia, Valdosta State, and West Florida would be more likely, but UWF will need a few years of growth before moving to Division I since its football program is new.

No one goes from Division II to the Southern Conference - it's just not how the SoCon operates. The Southland needs UIW and ACU to finish their transition before adding anyone else from Division II. NCAA rules limit the number of non-Division I opponents a team can play, so the Atlantic Sun will want to avoid something like this happening:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketba...ence-games

Effectively this limits a conference to two transitioning schools, but then a team can't have any other non-Division I opponents on its schedule, even for exhibition games.

Transitioning schools count as DI after the first year of transition. The ASUN has had up to four transitioning schools at the same time (UNF, FGSU, KSU, USCU), so they have managed it.

Nova Southeastern is a huge private school that wants in. Several Peach Belt schools have made DI noise. Even Lincoln Memorial and Bellarmine could make the move to the ASUN.

Not to mention there are a couple of MEAC schools unhappy with the MEAC giving up the auto-bid to the FCS playoffs and would be open to moving conferences - NC A&T is one that wouldn't surprise me if they moved.

Football would have to go in the Big South, but they need the numbers in football.

(04-28-2015 12:04 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Not to mention there are a couple of MEAC schools unhappy with the MEAC giving up the auto-bid to the FCS playoffs and would be open to moving conferences - NC A&T is one that wouldn't surprise me if they moved.

Football would have to go in the Big South, but they need the numbers in football.

Yeah, people think ASun or the WAC are at the bottom of this whole D1 pile. When you have a school that's on the verge of closing its doors for a year, the conference that houses them should be where the eyes are on that subject. What keeps MEAC and SWAC around is tradition and the value of HBC. Put their athletic budgets to any of the fledglings in ASun or the WAC, and it isn't in those conferences where the small or insignificant exist.

Institutional health and sustainability varies across MEAC's and SWAC's membership. If ASun loses NKU or additional members, I suspect MEAC schools will readily apply. It's just finding a home for football, which some of these MEAC institutions might impose upon its potential former conference. I've heard Norfolk State and Howard dropped here and there. I know Delaware State's been looking for a more geographically-friendly home...ASun doesn't really help or hurt that.

(04-28-2015 01:06 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Yeah, people think ASun or the WAC are at the bottom of this whole D1 pile. When you have a school that's on the verge of closing its doors for a year, the conference that houses them should be where the eyes are on that subject. What keeps MEAC and SWAC around is tradition and the value of HBC. Put their athletic budgets to any of the fledglings in ASun or the WAC, and it isn't in those conferences where the small or insignificant exist.

Institutional health and sustainability varies across MEAC's and SWAC's membership. If ASun loses NKU or additional members, I suspect MEAC schools will readily apply. It's just finding a home for football, which some of these MEAC institutions might impose upon its potential former conference. I've heard Norfolk State and Howard dropped here and there. I know Delaware State's been looking for a more geographically-friendly home...ASun doesn't really help or hurt that.

I'm all for the tradition and still valuable experience that HBCU's can provide for young black men, but why shouldn't some of the MEAC and SWAC schools be in DII with those budgets??

Great point!!


I guess tradition,pride,etc. keep some hanging on.

Tuskegee, Columbus State, Tarleton State and Texas A&m-Commerce are doing a study to see if they want to go to D-1. I think some of the non-basketball schools in some of these conferences could form a new conference with UALR, UTA, New Orleans, Texas A&M-Commerce, Oral Roberts, Texas-Pan American, UMKC, UAB and some D2 non-football schools in the area like UAFS.

Tarleton State, Delta State and Commerce can replace the non-football schools.

Lipscomb and Belmont both could have football playing in the Pioneer League.

I could see some California schools add football and play in the Pioneer as well to help San Diego out.

(04-28-2015 01:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-28-2015 01:06 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Yeah, people think ASun or the WAC are at the bottom of this whole D1 pile. When you have a school that's on the verge of closing its doors for a year, the conference that houses them should be where the eyes are on that subject. What keeps MEAC and SWAC around is tradition and the value of HBC. Put their athletic budgets to any of the fledglings in ASun or the WAC, and it isn't in those conferences where the small or insignificant exist.

Institutional health and sustainability varies across MEAC's and SWAC's membership. If ASun loses NKU or additional members, I suspect MEAC schools will readily apply. It's just finding a home for football, which some of these MEAC institutions might impose upon its potential former conference. I've heard Norfolk State and Howard dropped here and there. I know Delaware State's been looking for a more geographically-friendly home...ASun doesn't really help or hurt that.

I'm all for the tradition and still valuable experience that HBCU's can provide for young black men, but why shouldn't some of the MEAC and SWAC schools be in DII with those budgets??

You know, I wonder if they think D1 athletics keep them open. Sink to D2, and how are you getting your name out there? What kind of things happen to your enrollment?

It seems like distancing the institution from the HBC/U thing is a sluggish and unpopular thing. One school near Philly, Cheyney, has used the HPBC/U identifier ("historically or predominantly"). Delaware State isn't really doing *that* much, or, rather, they aren't moving terribly fast to change their image.

(04-29-2015 10:30 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You know, I wonder if they think D1 athletics keep them open. Sink to D2, and how are you getting your name out there? What kind of things happen to your enrollment?

It seems like distancing the institution from the HBC/U thing is a sluggish and unpopular thing. One school near Philly, Cheyney, has used the HPBC/U identifier ("historically or predominantly"). Delaware State isn't really doing *that* much, or, rather, they aren't moving terribly fast to change their image.

All that happens is they drop down to the CIAA or SIAC conferences. I believe most of the current MEAC and SWAC came from those two conferences.

They're both still alive and well. I'd think they'd happily make room for drop-downs.

(04-29-2015 10:51 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-29-2015 10:30 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  You know, I wonder if they think D1 athletics keep them open. Sink to D2, and how are you getting your name out there? What kind of things happen to your enrollment?

It seems like distancing the institution from the HBC/U thing is a sluggish and unpopular thing. One school near Philly, Cheyney, has used the HPBC/U identifier ("historically or predominantly"). Delaware State isn't really doing *that* much, or, rather, they aren't moving terribly fast to change their image.

All that happens is they drop down to the CIAA or SIAC conferences. I believe most of the current MEAC and SWAC came from those two conferences.

They're both still alive and well. I'd think they'd happily make room for drop-downs.

They exist. I wouldn't hang the "and well" thing on schools like Lincoln and the jury's still out on ones like LeMoyne-Owen (it's rough for public HBC's...life is miserable for the private ones).

Dropping down just doesn't do anything for schools who are just plain hurting.

(04-29-2015 12:10 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  They exist. I wouldn't hang the "and well" thing on schools like Lincoln and the jury's still out on ones like LeMoyne-Owen (it's rough for public HBC's...life is miserable for the private ones).

Dropping down just doesn't do anything for schools who are just plain hurting.

Doesn't it reduce costs?

(04-29-2015 12:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(04-29-2015 12:10 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  They exist. I wouldn't hang the "and well" thing on schools like Lincoln and the jury's still out on ones like LeMoyne-Owen (it's rough for public HBC's...life is miserable for the private ones).

Dropping down just doesn't do anything for schools who are just plain hurting.

Doesn't it reduce costs?

What good are rims traded in for standard hubcaps when there isn't a car?

Athletic budgets aren't binding these schools down. Higher education's evolution, the over-saturation of schools, and the steeply declining enrollment and iffy oversight and administration at these places are.

In the case of this matter, we'll see if some MEAC members really do apply and ASun actually takes them. It's been speculated for some certain schools were ready to try being HBC in a non-HBC conference...doesn't mean it happens.

(04-29-2015 01:00 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  What good are rims traded in for standard hubcaps when there isn't a car?

Athletic budgets aren't binding these schools down. Higher education's evolution, the over-saturation of schools, and the steeply declining enrollment and iffy oversight and administration at these places are.

In the case of this matter, we'll see if some MEAC members really do apply and ASun actually takes them. It's been speculated for some certain schools were ready to try being HBC in a non-HBC conference...doesn't mean it happens.

I'm talking about the Miss Valley State's of the DI HBCU world.

So your hypothesis is that because enrollment and funding are declining and the school is mismanaged ... it shouldn't try to save costs by dropping to DII?