(04-25-2015 11:37 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:17 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:09 PM)MJG Wrote:  The power six will always have multiple tourney teams.
The AAC and MWC seem like natural 7th and 8th place conferences.

How did the A10,WCC ,MVC become multi bid conferences?

Unlike football facilities don't seem all that important.
Half of the A10 arenas are under six thousand .
The WCC conference has small schools with small gyms only one arena is over six thousand.
The MVC is not that much different than the MAC yet Northern Iowa is stronger than any of the directional MAC schools. I wonder if being non football conferences is better for basketball.

The OVC has had about as many wins in recent years as the MWC.
Maybe if they separated football from basketball like the MVC it would help.

Espn recognizes the AAC as a power league. Three bids without uconn and Memphis and a bubble for temple. How is that not power?

I'd say it is developing KnightBengal

UConn, Memphis, Cincy and Temple are Power Teams...the league needs a few years to develop. I'd still think the AAC is a tweener in Hoops between Power and Major (using these labels)

I agree with Kitton..the AAC needs to consistently garner around 40-50% of the schools in the NCAA every year

What is the point of putting the AAC or the A10 in a tweener category between Power and Major?

I don't agree with the nuancing. Its pretty clear who is power and who is not.

Its like considering the AAC a tweener power conference in football. The only tweener power conference in football would be the B12 if Texas and Oklahoma left making the conference take a major blow. Legally the B12 would still have power conference voting rights and a good bowl lineup but would lag the other power conferences in TV deal and prestige. That is a true tweener or like the old BE football conference with a floating autobid to the BCS.

I put them in tweener cuz they have the ability to move to the Power group in hoops...the others I don't see the upside. Yes, I agree they are in Major vs Power.

Houston, SMU, Tulsa, etc...even UCF and USF all have consistent Top 25 if they make the right moves

(04-25-2015 11:28 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:17 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:09 PM)MJG Wrote:  The power six will always have multiple tourney teams.
The AAC and MWC seem like natural 7th and 8th place conferences.

How did the A10,WCC ,MVC become multi bid conferences?

Unlike football facilities don't seem all that important.
Half of the A10 arenas are under six thousand .
The WCC conference has small schools with small gyms only one arena is over six thousand.
The MVC is not that much different than the MAC yet Northern Iowa is stronger than any of the directional MAC schools. I wonder if being non football conferences is better for basketball.

The OVC has had about as many wins in recent years as the MWC.
Maybe if they separated football from basketball like the MVC it would help.

Espn recognizes the AAC as a power league. Three bids without uconn and Memphis and a bubble for temple. How is that not power?

That is not power. Five to Six bids is power.

The point is it should be a 5 to 6 bid league. Temple got hosed be cause the mwc had someone on the committee

(04-24-2015 09:32 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  The MVC originally figured out how to manipulate the RPI to their benefit...to become a multi bid conference...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_Percentage_Index

Then how do you explain 1999 when they sent 3 teams Dancing? And bigger conferences manipulate it by scheduling helpless patsies to boost the win column and coffers (because most just camp out at home) in the non-conference with a mix of really good teams and tournaments.

But because the Valley is not part of the chosen elite, their scheduling practices come under question.

(04-25-2015 12:00 PM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:28 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:17 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:09 PM)MJG Wrote:  The power six will always have multiple tourney teams.
The AAC and MWC seem like natural 7th and 8th place conferences.

How did the A10,WCC ,MVC become multi bid conferences?

Unlike football facilities don't seem all that important.
Half of the A10 arenas are under six thousand .
The WCC conference has small schools with small gyms only one arena is over six thousand.
The MVC is not that much different than the MAC yet Northern Iowa is stronger than any of the directional MAC schools. I wonder if being non football conferences is better for basketball.

The OVC has had about as many wins in recent years as the MWC.
Maybe if they separated football from basketball like the MVC it would help.

Espn recognizes the AAC as a power league. Three bids without uconn and Memphis and a bubble for temple. How is that not power?

That is not power. Five to Six bids is power.

The point is it should be a 5 to 6 bid league. Temple got hosed be cause the mwc had someone on the committee

If the conference is being disrespected or hosed out of bids then it's not a power conference. The power conferences are the ones that get respected and the benefit of the doubt.

(04-25-2015 10:04 AM)MJG Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:34 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  There are no such thing as multi-bid conferences, at-large bids are awarded to individual teams.

Winning games vs quality opponents is how you earn an at-large bid, being in a strong conference helps a team have opportunities to prove themselves, but its no guarantee. For instance, the MAC was a multi-bid worthy conference this year but no MAC team earned an at-large bid. That's because the MAC had several good teams but they all beat up on each other, nobody dominated. That, combined with a couple of strong teams scheduling too weak of an OOC meant no at-large bid this year. That's the teams' fault, not the MAC's. Overall, the MAC was 10th in RPI and the only conference in the top 12 to not have multiple bids.

As for Northern Iowa, yes they were really good this year but they are not on another level compared to the MAC. They've lost 2 of their last 3 matchups vs MAC opponents and 3 total wins in the NCAA Tournament is not superior to your average MAC team.

Yeah I get your point I was speaking more in general The A10 and Valley and now the WCC consistently get multiple bids.I would think the MAC schools are superior to most Valley schools. Especially the FCS valley schools Northern Iowa or Western Michigan whats the difference. Maybe Western uses up too many resources for hockey and football compared to NIU. Maybe it is just coaching and luck .

Three of the five conferences have non football playing members and concentrate on basketball. That is outside of the power six with the Big East being a non football playing power conference.

I really hope you're referring to Northern Illinois University when you say NIU... one of us is a well respected and fairly well known football G5 powerhouse with a recent BCS bowl berth and the other is simply a slightly above average basketball school and baseball school with no other real claim to fame...

Even UNI claims it as such on their website and team posts

The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

(04-25-2015 02:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

Decently for NIU lol

(04-25-2015 12:03 PM)e-parade Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 12:00 PM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:28 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:17 AM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:09 PM)MJG Wrote:  The power six will always have multiple tourney teams.
The AAC and MWC seem like natural 7th and 8th place conferences.

How did the A10,WCC ,MVC become multi bid conferences?

Unlike football facilities don't seem all that important.
Half of the A10 arenas are under six thousand .
The WCC conference has small schools with small gyms only one arena is over six thousand.
The MVC is not that much different than the MAC yet Northern Iowa is stronger than any of the directional MAC schools. I wonder if being non football conferences is better for basketball.

The OVC has had about as many wins in recent years as the MWC.
Maybe if they separated football from basketball like the MVC it would help.

Espn recognizes the AAC as a power league. Three bids without uconn and Memphis and a bubble for temple. How is that not power?

That is not power. Five to Six bids is power.

The point is it should be a 5 to 6 bid league. Temple got hosed be cause the mwc had someone on the committee

If the conference is being disrespected or hosed out of bids then it's not a power conference. The power conferences are the ones that get respected and the benefit of the doubt.

Being hosed by a competitor whose other conf that made it because the conf rep was on the board. Come on you need to reevaluate. That call will happen every time due to conf tourney credits. Nothing to do with respect.

(04-25-2015 01:05 PM)Stay Cool Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 10:04 AM)MJG Wrote:  

(04-24-2015 09:34 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  There are no such thing as multi-bid conferences, at-large bids are awarded to individual teams.

Winning games vs quality opponents is how you earn an at-large bid, being in a strong conference helps a team have opportunities to prove themselves, but its no guarantee. For instance, the MAC was a multi-bid worthy conference this year but no MAC team earned an at-large bid. That's because the MAC had several good teams but they all beat up on each other, nobody dominated. That, combined with a couple of strong teams scheduling too weak of an OOC meant no at-large bid this year. That's the teams' fault, not the MAC's. Overall, the MAC was 10th in RPI and the only conference in the top 12 to not have multiple bids.

As for Northern Iowa, yes they were really good this year but they are not on another level compared to the MAC. They've lost 2 of their last 3 matchups vs MAC opponents and 3 total wins in the NCAA Tournament is not superior to your average MAC team.

Yeah I get your point I was speaking more in general The A10 and Valley and now the WCC consistently get multiple bids.I would think the MAC schools are superior to most Valley schools. Especially the FCS valley schools Northern Iowa or Western Michigan whats the difference. Maybe Western uses up too many resources for hockey and football compared to NIU. Maybe it is just coaching and luck .

Three of the five conferences have non football playing members and concentrate on basketball. That is outside of the power six with the Big East being a non football playing power conference.

I really hope you're referring to Northern Illinois University when you say NIU... one of us is a well respected and fairly well known football G5 powerhouse with a recent BCS bowl berth and the other is simply a slightly above average basketball school and baseball school with no other real claim to fame...

Even UNI claims it as such on their website and team posts

I remember that now UNI

(04-25-2015 02:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

well, in a list of the 10 winningest G5 programs since 1999 the MAC has more schools than any G5 except MWC, so I would say its working out just fine.

1. Boise State
2. Northern Illinois
3. Toledo
4. Cincinnati
5. Fresno State
6. Marshall
7. Air Force
8. Bowling Green
9. UCF
10. Hawaii

The West Coast is the latest conference to consistently place multiple teams
This makes me think having one consistent winner like Gonzaga then a second team step up is the best way to get more than one team. Adding BYU probably helped strengthen that perception of a strong conference.A conference like the Big Sky could follow that pattern .Have a school make a nice run of appearances then have a second school challenge them. Webber ST and Montana would be ideal for either role. Because they have each had a decent number of appearances.

^It's not realistic for conferences to do what the WCC is doing. They luckily had a school become a power from scratch and it took a decade for a second school to step up while they got lucky with BYU. Too many conferences have teams be a flash in the pan to ever consistently send multiple teams year in and year out.

(04-25-2015 11:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:25 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  There is a certain point realignment moves will impact the depth of your basketball conference.

A10 (adds Davidson)
CUSA (adds UT-San Antonio)
WAC (adds Grand Canyon)

These are major basketball conferences that have gone into desperate mode with their basketball additions. Schools that would of had 0% chance of getting into those conferences in the 90s.

I don't see stipends being too much of a factor since even the Big South is agreeing to pay them in men's basketball. Its going to be the migration of bigger budget schools upward that will squash the mid major conferences over time.

The MAC with 5 bowl games is maxed out in football but has large enrollment schools with the potential of raising 20 million for a state of the art basketball practice facility like Ball State did. Facilities like that will make a difference and allow Ball State to go directly against Big Ten schools in recruiting. Other MAC schools are announcing 80 to 100 million dollar facility campaigns.

The mistake the MAC has made is focusing East and requiring all schools play football. That has led to EMU being forced to continue with a football program and competition from the MVC/Horizon league in recruiting.

Davidson did pretty well in the A-10 last year. They actually were the regular season champs (by themselves). Actually, the A-10 took the following schools in the 90's. Duquesne (to return), Fordham, La Salle. I think Davidson is a better add than any of those schools.

Yeah, I wonder how good the A-10 would be if they hadn't added so much pure deadweight. At least two of those former three haven't made the Dance since the 80's or before and though La Salle just went to the Sweet 16 they haven't added much over the years.

(04-25-2015 05:01 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 02:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

well, in a list of the 10 winningest G5 programs since 1999 the MAC has more schools than any G5 except MWC, so I would say its working out just fine.

1. Boise State
2. Northern Illinois
3. Toledo
4. Cincinnati
5. Fresno State
6. Marshall
7. Air Force
8. Bowling Green
9. UCF
10. Hawaii

4 if you count Marshall, at least partially. That said winning in the MAC as opposed to even the AAC, is not much to sneeze about. I mean what has Bowling Green done aside from Urban Meyer's brief stay?

(04-25-2015 07:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  ...That said winning in the MAC as opposed to even the AAC, is not much to sneeze about. I mean what has Bowling Green done aside from Urban Meyer's brief stay?

Meyer never won a conference champ or played in a bowl at Bowling Green, so besides winning 16 conference championships, making 12 bowl appearances, hosting an episode of College Game Day, being nationally ranked several times and having the 32nd best all-time winning percentage in FBS I guess BG hasn't really done much without Urban Meyer.


P.S.
Winning in the MAC, or any G5 conference, is much more impressive than winning in a P5 conference. Here's why-

- G5 teams don't get to fill 1/3 of their schedule with OOC opponents that are totally outmatched in revenue and resources and can be bought out to add additional home games.
- G5 teams play a conference schedule where every opponent has nearly identical revenue and resources, the P5 powers play half of their conference schedule against conference mates that are nearly as outmatched as the OOC opponents.

Its much more difficult to win as a G5 team than a P5.

(04-25-2015 07:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  ^It's not realistic for conferences to do what the WCC is doing. They luckily had a school become a power from scratch and it took a decade for a second school to step up while they got lucky with BYU. Too many conferences have teams be a flash in the pan to ever consistently send multiple teams year in and year out.

(04-25-2015 11:41 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 11:25 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  There is a certain point realignment moves will impact the depth of your basketball conference.

A10 (adds Davidson)
CUSA (adds UT-San Antonio)
WAC (adds Grand Canyon)

These are major basketball conferences that have gone into desperate mode with their basketball additions. Schools that would of had 0% chance of getting into those conferences in the 90s.

I don't see stipends being too much of a factor since even the Big South is agreeing to pay them in men's basketball. Its going to be the migration of bigger budget schools upward that will squash the mid major conferences over time.

The MAC with 5 bowl games is maxed out in football but has large enrollment schools with the potential of raising 20 million for a state of the art basketball practice facility like Ball State did. Facilities like that will make a difference and allow Ball State to go directly against Big Ten schools in recruiting. Other MAC schools are announcing 80 to 100 million dollar facility campaigns.

The mistake the MAC has made is focusing East and requiring all schools play football. That has led to EMU being forced to continue with a football program and competition from the MVC/Horizon league in recruiting.

Davidson did pretty well in the A-10 last year. They actually were the regular season champs (by themselves). Actually, the A-10 took the following schools in the 90's. Duquesne (to return), Fordham, La Salle. I think Davidson is a better add than any of those schools.

Yeah, I wonder how good the A-10 would be if they hadn't added so much pure deadweight. At least two of those former three haven't made the Dance since the 80's or before and though La Salle just went to the Sweet 16 they haven't added much over the years.

(04-25-2015 05:01 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 02:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

well, in a list of the 10 winningest G5 programs since 1999 the MAC has more schools than any G5 except MWC, so I would say its working out just fine.

1. Boise State
2. Northern Illinois
3. Toledo
4. Cincinnati
5. Fresno State
6. Marshall
7. Air Force
8. Bowling Green
9. UCF
10. Hawaii

4 if you count Marshall, at least partially. That said winning in the MAC as opposed to even the AAC, is not much to sneeze about. I mean what has Bowling Green done aside from Urban Meyer's brief stay?

MAC is tied with the WAC with three.

(04-25-2015 05:01 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 02:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 01:25 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  The last time a MAC team received an at-large bid was Miami's Sweet 16 team of 1999, you could argue that the conference's focus on football, and for some schools hockey too, since then has impacted basketball.

The MAC is focused on football? How's that working out?

well, in a list of the 10 winningest G5 programs since 1999 the MAC has more schools than any G5 except MWC, so I would say its working out just fine.

1. Boise State
2. Northern Illinois
3. Toledo
4. Cincinnati
5. Fresno State
6. Marshall
7. Air Force
8. Bowling Green
9. UCF
10. Hawaii

You need to remove Cincinnati from that list. They were mostly one of the haves who got AQ slots in bowl games.

(04-25-2015 08:46 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 07:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  ...That said winning in the MAC as opposed to even the AAC, is not much to sneeze about. I mean what has Bowling Green done aside from Urban Meyer's brief stay?

Meyer never won a conference champ or played in a bowl at Bowling Green, so besides winning 16 conference championships, making 12 bowl appearances, hosting an episode of College Game Day, being nationally ranked several times and having the 32nd best all-time winning percentage in FBS I guess BG hasn't really done much without Urban Meyer.

Sorry, I meant what have they done since 1999, the specified time period in the post I was responding to.

(04-25-2015 11:15 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 08:46 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  

(04-25-2015 07:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  ...That said winning in the MAC as opposed to even the AAC, is not much to sneeze about. I mean what has Bowling Green done aside from Urban Meyer's brief stay?

Meyer never won a conference champ or played in a bowl at Bowling Green, so besides winning 16 conference championships, making 12 bowl appearances, hosting an episode of College Game Day, being nationally ranked several times and having the 32nd best all-time winning percentage in FBS I guess BG hasn't really done much without Urban Meyer.

Sorry, I meant what have they done since 1999, the specified time period in the post I was responding to.

since 1999 BG has won a conf championship, 3 division titles and made 7 bowl appearances. ESPN College Gameday was on campus in 2003 when #23 BGSU hosted #12 NIU.

2003 was a banner year for the MAC, in non conference play BGSU beat #16 Purdue, Miami beat Northwestern and Cincinnati, NIU beat Iowa State and on the same day (9/20/03) Marshall beat #6 Kansas State, Toledo beat #9 Pitt, NIU beat #21 Alabama and BGSU lost by 1 TD to #5 Ohio State.

Miami and BG were the only 2 MAC teams to get a bowl, Miami beat Louisville and BGSU beat Northwestern. NIU went 10-2 but didn't get a bowl invite. BGSU finished the year ranked #23 and Miami, with Ben Rawfulberger at QB, finished at #10.

So like I said, other than Urban Meyer's time on campus, Bowling Green hasn't done much that register's nationally, verdad?