(04-21-2015 06:55 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Most Christians may not believe in evolution . . .

Say what?

I'm one of a growing number of Chistians that beieve God created evolution. There are more of us than one would think. We tend to be of the younger generation. I think it's been called Christian Evolutionism.

(04-21-2015 04:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 03:40 PM)gsloth Wrote:  ...got the fundamentalists without a sense of humor all bunched up. Pretty sure Only the Good Die Young was one of the tunes.

And on Halloween, too!

I don't know why fundamentalists would object to "Only the Good Die Young", which is one of the most decidedly Protestant songs ever written. It spoofs not Christianity in general but Roman Catholic liturgy and ritual in particular. Dutch Calvinists, Scottish Presbyterians and English Puritans -- the forebears of much of American Christianity -- all would have found much to like in it. What could be more Protestant than that?

I always thought it was a teenage anthem for adolescent boys out to seduce Catholic girls. It's lyrics speak less to spoofing beliefs, and more to appeals to restrained hedonism (I started to say Epicureanism, but that was just that seeking pleasure was the chief goal in life, while the 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die' approach is a little more than that - - and that adage evidently is taken from Biblical passages mixed, more than a quote) in the hopes of getting lucky ASAP.

Considering the song came out either when I was a senior in high school or a freshman at Rice (a group of us went to see Billy Joel at the Summit freshman year), at least IIRC with regard to the song's release, I certainly didn't see it as high parody, but more in the "what're ya' waiting for" mindset.

(04-21-2015 09:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  I'm one of a growing number of Chistians that beieve God created evolution. There are more of us than one would think. We tend to be of the younger generation. I think it's been called Christian Evolutionism.

I've always thought the Creation story and the story of the Garden of Eden were there, not as scientific text per se, but to generally explain the order of creation, (i.e., Light (stars), form (mass gathering in the void), atmosphere and oceans, living things and last man - - generally accurate)

The Garden story (Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) is there to set out that when Man came to the realization that there is Good and Evil (alone among God's creation on Earth), he choose to 'eat' there, which I take as symbolic of man's desire to define good and evil on our own terms. Original sin therefore is pride in taking on God's role of defining good and evil. i.e., we set ourselves up as God in defining good and evil as we see fit, and we're incapable of doing that without our own motives influencing us.

But that's my interpretation, and not a literal approach to the text.

(04-21-2015 09:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  I'm one of a growing number of Chistians that beieve God created evolution. There are more of us than one would think. We tend to be of the younger generation. I think it's been called Christian Evolutionism.

I've always felt that evolution is one of the strongest arguments in favor of a Creator God.

In any event, I don't see this as an issue to affect athletic participation. I'm more disappointed that possible admission of someone like Liberty would be a concession as to how far CUSA has fallen.

(04-21-2015 11:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 09:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  I'm one of a growing number of Chistians that beieve God created evolution. There are more of us than one would think. We tend to be of the younger generation. I think it's been called Christian Evolutionism.

I've always felt that evolution is one of the strongest arguments in favor of a Creator God.

In any event, I don't see this as an issue to affect athletic participation. I'm more disappointed that possible admission of someone like Liberty would be a concession as to how far CUSA has fallen.

Agree. And there are two or three other schools that would be added to the East before Liberty, like Georgia Southern or Alabama State. It's very unlikely Libert ever gets in. Even Army would be added before Liberty.

(04-21-2015 04:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 03:40 PM)gsloth Wrote:  ...got the fundamentalists without a sense of humor all bunched up. Pretty sure Only the Good Die Young was one of the tunes.

And on Halloween, too!

I don't know why fundamentalists would object to "Only the Good Die Young", which is one of the most decidedly Protestant songs ever written. It spoofs not Christianity in general but Roman Catholic liturgy and ritual in particular. Dutch Calvinists, Scottish Presbyterians and English Puritans -- the forebears of much of American Christianity -- all would have found much to like in it. What could be more Protestant than that?

Actually, we were making fun of the televangelist problems (Jim Bakker, et al.) and playing up the ghosts and "evil spirits" loose on Halloween, among other topics. Generated a bit of backlash with all of the angry letters to the administration.

(04-22-2015 12:45 AM)Afflicted Wrote:  Even Army would be added before Liberty.

History offers many examples either way.

i don't want Liberty in the conference just because they represent a further step down. i don't have to subscribe to their philosophy to play them, though, just as I didn't have to endorse the LDS church to play BYU.

Since BYU has been mentioned several times:

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comment...es_handle/
http://biology.byu.edu/DepartmentInfo/Ev...ofMan.aspx

Money quote: "The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how."

The problem with Falwell U is not their religious beliefs, but that How to Argue Against Science is part of the curriculum. BYU does not deserve to be equated to them.

Regardless, I think there are more attractive candidates from a purely athletic standpoint, if C-USA chooses to expand at all.

(04-22-2015 02:12 PM)Gravy Owl Wrote:  Since BYU has been mentioned several times:

http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comment...es_handle/
http://biology.byu.edu/DepartmentInfo/Ev...ofMan.aspx

Money quote: "The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how."

The problem with Falwell U is not their religious beliefs, but that How to Argue Against Science is part of the curriculum. BYU does not deserve to be equated to them.

Regardless, I think there are more attractive candidates from a purely athletic standpoint, if C-USA chooses to expand at all.

I think the problem with some of the attitudes towards "religious schools" is the mistaken fallacy of Scientism: the reduction of all knowledge to the scientific form of knowledge. Here's a short explanation of Scientism by an expert who actually and knowledgeably follows a rather large religion that believes that Science and Religion can and do co-exist harmonically and symbiotically:

(04-20-2015 10:48 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Well I guess we should shut down all religious studies classes at Rice as well?

I stand by my original post on the subject. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions just like those at the schools you belittle. But your intolerance for beliefs and opinions different than yours is sad.

Peace.

I'd like to hear more about what you think goes on in a religious studies class. And how that in any way relates to the tentpole of Liberty's curriculum, whose sole goal is to prepare students to argue against evolution and in favor of the idea that the earth is a few thousand years old.

Also interested to know how far your tolerance extends -- what would you think of Rice University entering into conference with, say, the College of Metaphysical Studies and the Kepler College of Astrophysical Arts and Sciences?

(04-22-2015 06:01 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  "Maintaining our standards makes it necessary that we not associate ourselves with inferiors and those who believe differently..." I've seen that argument made, in other contexts... that kind of elitism has a dark side that has had no place at Rice in decades.

Its hard to believe so many enlighten people live on the dark side. God help us.

(04-22-2015 11:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  What does the "C" in TCU stand for? The "M" in SMU?

Do the religious philosophies taught by either of those schools conflict with science?

Liberty is small time. That is why we don't want them. let them win a National Championship, and we would be happy to be in their conference, instead of not wanting them in ours.

There are other reasons we don't want Libery as compared to other universities with some sort of religious denomination, and that is that all of the other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material, or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certai political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club). Liberty does not teach its students to be open minded and think critically, it more or less uses its position to reinforce its dogma. Maybe you can point to another major university that is so set about being set in its way, but so far I don't know of any other worthwhile university which has such a different public mission.

(04-23-2015 05:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  There are other reasons we don't want Libery as compared or other universities with some sort of religious denomination, and that is that all of the other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material, or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certai political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club). Liberty does not teach its students to be open minded and think critically, it more or less uses its position to reinforce its dogma. Maybe you can point to another major university that is so set about being set in its way, but so far I don't know of any other worthwhile university which has such a different public mission.

As a Christian in Virginia I'm pretty familiar with Liberty. I see little to no difference in them and Baylor. Some of the naysayers would like to boot Baylor back to FCS as well.

"other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material"

Actively teaching anti-intellectual material? Would that be Biblical stuff? Yes they do promote a biblical worldview.

"or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certain political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club)"

I looked it up. http://www.liberty.edu/news/?PID=18495&MID=8373

Long live schools like Baylor and Liberty! I would like to see them succeed.

(04-23-2015 07:07 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  

(04-23-2015 05:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  There are other reasons we don't want Libery as compared or other universities with some sort of religious denomination, and that is that all of the other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material, or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certai political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club). Liberty does not teach its students to be open minded and think critically, it more or less uses its position to reinforce its dogma. Maybe you can point to another major university that is so set about being set in its way, but so far I don't know of any other worthwhile university which has such a different public mission.

As a Christian in Virginia I'm pretty familiar with Liberty. I see little to no difference in them and Baylor. Some of the naysayers would like to boot Baylor back to FCS as well.

"other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material"

Actively teaching anti-intellectual material? Would that be Biblical stuff? Yes they do promote a biblical worldview.

"or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certain political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club)"

I looked it up. http://www.liberty.edu/news/?PID=18495&MID=8373

Long live schools like Baylor and Liberty! I would like to see them succeed.

Christianity is relatively broad. The Baptist faith is non-creedal. As they were persecuted in the Reformation in England and Holland for being "gasp" non-literal in their views on Baptism and the Lord's Supper (holding both to be symbolic, a view now much more widely held in Protestant circles), they distrusted formal structure dictating to individual churches and individual Christians. Their doctrine of Priesthood of the Believer, which leaves a great deal of room for individual conscience and the responsibility of each individual to seek out God versus relying on church and leaders to think for you leaves the door much more open for individual interpretation of scripture.

This is good, but it leads to different emphasis within individuals and churches. There is an evangelical branch and a fundamentalist branch.

I think it would probably be fair to say that Liberty was set up by a group of like-minded fundamentalists. As such, their curricula includes courses that are rigidly fundamentalist. That is not all their coursework, and one would presume that people are taught skills there that work well in the outside world, apart from their beliefs (not that 100% of their students are likely fundamentalists either).

I don't think it is accurate to compare Baylor to Liberty in a theological sense. While Baylor is not liberal theologically, neither is it as strictly dogmatic or fundamental as Liberty appears to be.

I would have no problem with my kids attending Baylor (or TCU, or most public schools) if that was there choice. I would not be supportive of Liberty, based on what I know at this point in time.

That, however, does not mean that people who attend Liberty are beneath us, or deserving of contempt.

(04-22-2015 06:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-22-2015 02:56 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(04-22-2015 02:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Put t this way. If BYU and Notre Dame petitioned to join CUSA tomorrow, would you vote "no" to either? I wouldn't, and I doubt any sensible CUSA member would.

Theres a difference between BYU/ND and Liberty. A large difference.
The question is a false equivalence.

I agree there are huge differences. But the point that was being made suggested opposition to all religious schools. The statement to which I was responding was, "I'm really not cool with Rice playing ND either." The question was posed for the purpose of clarifying that. In that context, not a false equivalence at all.

Fair enough.

(04-23-2015 12:10 AM)JOwl Wrote:  I'd like to hear more about what you think goes on in a religious studies class. And how that in any way relates to the tentpole of Liberty's curriculum, whose sole goal is to prepare students to argue against evolution and in favor of the idea that the earth is a few thousand years old.

Also interested to know how far your tolerance extends -- what would you think of Rice University entering into conference with, say, the College of Metaphysical Studies and the Kepler College of Astrophysical Arts and Sciences?

I found information on a Kepler College of Astrological Arts and Sciences. Is that what you meant? As best as I could determine, neither of these institutions has an athletic program.

(04-23-2015 09:04 AM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(04-23-2015 12:10 AM)JOwl Wrote:  I'd like to hear more about what you think goes on in a religious studies class. And how that in any way relates to the tentpole of Liberty's curriculum, whose sole goal is to prepare students to argue against evolution and in favor of the idea that the earth is a few thousand years old.

Also interested to know how far your tolerance extends -- what would you think of Rice University entering into conference with, say, the College of Metaphysical Studies and the Kepler College of Astrophysical Arts and Sciences?

I found information on a Kepler College of Astrological Arts and Sciences. Is that what you meant? As best as I could determine, neither of these institutions has an athletic program.

JOwl was obviously still thinking about the term "metaphysical" when he typed "astrophysical" instead of "astrological." Really, that didn't need to be pointed out (unless you were trying to clarify his question for an even larger audience, which you did).

As for either of those institutions having an athletic program, that... isn't the point.

(04-23-2015 07:07 AM)ODU BLUE Wrote:  

(04-23-2015 05:35 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  There are other reasons we don't want Libery as compared or other universities with some sort of religious denomination, and that is that all of the other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material, or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certai political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club). Liberty does not teach its students to be open minded and think critically, it more or less uses its position to reinforce its dogma. Maybe you can point to another major university that is so set about being set in its way, but so far I don't know of any other worthwhile university which has such a different public mission.

As a Christian in Virginia I'm pretty familiar with Liberty. I see little to no difference in them and Baylor. Some of the naysayers would like to boot Baylor back to FCS as well.

"other universities we have discussed here, as far as I know, do not compromise their role as educators by actively teaching anti-intellectual material"

Actively teaching anti-intellectual material? Would that be Biblical stuff? Yes they do promote a biblical worldview.

"or intentionally trying to basically silence or removing certain political ideologies from campus (read a bit about Liberty's decision regarding the Democratic Club)"

I looked it up. http://www.liberty.edu/news/?PID=18495&MID=8373

Long live schools like Baylor and Liberty! I would like to see them succeed.

Anti-intellectual was referring to specifically teaching young earth creationism in biology, a course that should be taught based upon the scientific foundations of biogy, one of which is evolution.

And read about the groups from items that aren't just school press releases.