FYI, Pitino isn't done yet. We replaced one HoF with another HoF. I have to confess, I like Joe B Hall very much. How many rival coaches had a radio show together?

Jim Valvano for Norm Sloan?

(03-08-2015 09:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say Crum over Hall because Big East and now ACC light years better than what the SEC was.

When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

exactly.. in history-
Kentucky- 118 tourney wins, 16 final 4's, 12 title game appearances, 8 titles
rest of SEC while in SEC- 169 tourney wins, 13 final 4's, 5 title game appearances, 3 titles

Just compare the rest of the SEC to the Big East and AAC that Louisville faced. 12 elite 8's, 7 final 4's, 2 title games, and 2 titles. That's just in the Big East/AAC era. Add to that Marquette's final 4 run and the conference competition that Louisville has had is at least 13 elite 8's and 8 final 4's. Yeah a little bit tougher than the SEC competition that Kentucky historically faced....

The SEC really picked it up starting in the mid-70s-shortly after Joe B. became coach. The SEC was competitive with the rest of the top conferences up until the slump the last 5 years. I think you'll find the overwhelming portion of those SEC tourney wins post Rupp.

(03-08-2015 11:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 09:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say Crum over Hall because Big East and now ACC light years better than what the SEC was.

When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

exactly.. in history-
Kentucky- 118 tourney wins, 16 final 4's, 12 title game appearances, 8 titles
rest of SEC while in SEC- 169 tourney wins, 13 final 4's, 5 title game appearances, 3 titles

Just compare the rest of the SEC to the Big East and AAC that Louisville faced. 12 elite 8's, 7 final 4's, 2 title games, and 2 titles. That's just in the Big East/AAC era. Add to that Marquette's final 4 run and the conference competition that Louisville has had is at least 13 elite 8's and 8 final 4's. Yeah a little bit tougher than the SEC competition that Kentucky historically faced....

The SEC really picked it up starting in the mid-70s-shortly after Joe B. became coach. The SEC was competitive with the rest of the top conferences up until the slump the last 5 years. I think you'll find the overwhelming portion of those SEC tourney wins post Rupp.

maybe wins- but in Hall's career at Kentucky the rest of the SEC had all of 3 elite 8's and 2 final 4's(LSU and Georgia). That's it. that's why its Pitino and it's not even close...

(03-08-2015 09:35 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Jim Valvano for Norm Sloan?

heh, I saw the tail end of the 30 for 30 on NC State this evening on ESPN and thought that exact same question. probably not long enough for Valvano but his team probably did more for March Madness than any other that we've ever seen.

(03-09-2015 12:15 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 09:35 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Jim Valvano for Norm Sloan?

heh, I saw the tail end of the 30 for 30 on NC State this evening on ESPN and thought that exact same question. probably not long enough for Valvano but his team probably did more for March Madness than any other that we've ever seen.

I think March Madness caught fire because of two things: Some memorable finals within less than 10 years: Magic vs. Bird, NC State-Houston, Villanova-Georgetown, and the coverage of first-round upsets first popularized by ESPN when they started that whip-around coverage of the first two days of the tournament, before CBS took those days all for themselves.

(03-08-2015 09:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say Crum over Hall because Big East and now ACC light years better than what the SEC was.

When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

exactly.. in history-
Kentucky- 118 tourney wins, 16 final 4's, 12 title game appearances, 8 titles
rest of SEC while in SEC- 169 tourney wins, 13 final 4's, 5 title game appearances, 3 titles

Just compare the rest of the SEC to the Big East and AAC that Louisville faced. 12 elite 8's, 7 final 4's, 2 title games, and 2 titles. That's just in the Big East/AAC era. Add to that Marquette's final 4 run and the conference competition that Louisville has had is at least 13 elite 8's and 8 final 4's. Yeah a little bit tougher than the SEC competition that Kentucky historically faced....

Don't forget UConn either in that mix.

I would go with Pitino bailing out Kentucky, helping the Knicks and replacing Crum. Joe hall was a very good coach when using the Guys He recruited while an assistant to Rupp. Went to the '75 championship game with those guys and won it all in '78 with the next Super Class. Things start to go South with the next couple of classes though and with the Rise of Louisville and Indiana, it put a lot of pressure on His coaching ability with some Hard core fans whom couldn't believe that Tennessee, LSU and Alabama, Auburn, Georgia could recruit equally as well as Kentucky could in those days.

Cardfan, Pitino didn't (directly) replace Joe B Hall: he replaced Fast Eddie Sutton.

(03-09-2015 08:48 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  Cardfan, Pitino didn't (directly) replace Joe B Hall: he replaced Fast Eddie Sutton.

Right, I knew that but I was making the point that Rick did clean up Kentucky's mess from the Sutton era . just giving Rick props there . Whom could forget the Fed X and other issues of the Day there. BTW, I went to school with Mike York Whom broke That story in the Lexington Herald.

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say Crum over Hall because Big East and now ACC light years better than what the SEC was.

When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

You do realize that from 1980 - 2012 the SEC had the same number of Final 4 appearances and national titles as the Big East, right?

The Big East didn't win a national title for 14 years, from 1985 - 1999, and only had 2 teams make the Final 4 during the entire 1990s. For six straight years, 1990-1995, no Big East teams made the Final 4.

The B1G hasn't won a national title since when, 2000? That's 15 years! And just one in the past 1/4 century. And yet the B1G is always touted as a top basketball conference. Lots of teams in the Final 4 (24 since 1980) but since the 1980s they don't convert them into titles.

This is the 20th anniversary of the PAC's last national title.

Since the formation of the Big 12 in 1996, the Big 12 has put 7 teams in the Final 4. The SEC has had 12 during that same time.

Just about everyone goes through down times. Even the mighty ACC hasn't had a Final 4 team in 5 years.

The SEC isn't doing so bad and hasn't, historically.

(03-09-2015 05:38 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  I would go with Pitino bailing out Kentucky, helping the Knicks and replacing Crum. Joe hall was a very good coach when using the Guys He recruited while an assistant to Rupp. Went to the '75 championship game with those guys and won it all in '78 with the next Super Class. Things start to go South with the next couple of classes though and with the Rise of Louisville and Indiana, it put a lot of pressure on His coaching ability with some Hard core fans whom couldn't believe that Tennessee, LSU and Alabama, Auburn, Georgia could recruit equally as well as Kentucky could in those days.

That 83 team was pretty talented. Kenny Walker, Mel Turpin, Sam Bowie. Believe all were 1st round draft picks.

And the 78 champs were his guys. Robey, Givens, Lee, Macy, Phillips. Dwayne Casey (later of Fedex fame) was his recuit too and was on that team. They would have been in the finals in 77 too if not for Dean Smith's 4 corners and great free throw shooting.

(03-09-2015 12:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 11:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 09:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

exactly.. in history-
Kentucky- 118 tourney wins, 16 final 4's, 12 title game appearances, 8 titles
rest of SEC while in SEC- 169 tourney wins, 13 final 4's, 5 title game appearances, 3 titles

Just compare the rest of the SEC to the Big East and AAC that Louisville faced. 12 elite 8's, 7 final 4's, 2 title games, and 2 titles. That's just in the Big East/AAC era. Add to that Marquette's final 4 run and the conference competition that Louisville has had is at least 13 elite 8's and 8 final 4's. Yeah a little bit tougher than the SEC competition that Kentucky historically faced....

The SEC really picked it up starting in the mid-70s-shortly after Joe B. became coach. The SEC was competitive with the rest of the top conferences up until the slump the last 5 years. I think you'll find the overwhelming portion of those SEC tourney wins post Rupp.

maybe wins- but in Hall's career at Kentucky the rest of the SEC had all of 3 elite 8's and 2 final 4's(LSU and Georgia). That's it. that's why its Pitino and it's not even close...

Pitino didn't follow a legend. He doesn't fit the OP's premise.
Nolan Richardson did a pretty good job following Sutton where he was a legend.

(03-09-2015 11:28 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-09-2015 12:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 11:59 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 09:06 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

exactly.. in history-
Kentucky- 118 tourney wins, 16 final 4's, 12 title game appearances, 8 titles
rest of SEC while in SEC- 169 tourney wins, 13 final 4's, 5 title game appearances, 3 titles

Just compare the rest of the SEC to the Big East and AAC that Louisville faced. 12 elite 8's, 7 final 4's, 2 title games, and 2 titles. That's just in the Big East/AAC era. Add to that Marquette's final 4 run and the conference competition that Louisville has had is at least 13 elite 8's and 8 final 4's. Yeah a little bit tougher than the SEC competition that Kentucky historically faced....

The SEC really picked it up starting in the mid-70s-shortly after Joe B. became coach. The SEC was competitive with the rest of the top conferences up until the slump the last 5 years. I think you'll find the overwhelming portion of those SEC tourney wins post Rupp.

maybe wins- but in Hall's career at Kentucky the rest of the SEC had all of 3 elite 8's and 2 final 4's(LSU and Georgia). That's it. that's why its Pitino and it's not even close...

Pitino didn't follow a legend. He doesn't fit the OP's premise.
Nolan Richardson did a pretty good job following Sutton where he was a legend.

He did at Louisville. Denny Crum won 2 National Championships and went to 6 Final Fours, inducted into the Naismith HOF in 1994.

^

He's talking about Pitino at Kentucky, at least as far as what Eddie Sutton did at Oklahoma State.

(03-08-2015 12:36 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  I figure most people would choose Pitino, and it's hard to argue with it. Personally, I think the job Hall did is vastly underrated.

I got to thinking about this question when watching Duke-Carolina last night. Both schools will have legends to replace in the not too distant future.

As a Duke alum, I hope we set our sights on the best coach possible (Brad Stevens?) instead of restricting the search to a former Coach K player/assistant coach like Amaker, Dawkins, Capel, Wojo etc.

Amaker would be a great replacement imo, look what he's doing at Harvard of all places. Then again, if Brad Stevens took Butler to those heights (they were good but not that good previously) imagine what he could do at Duke.

(03-08-2015 05:47 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Did you just make up criteria to include Guy Lewis in this conversation?

LOL, I was just about to sarcastically say Pat Foster, Alvin Brooks, Clyde Drexler and Ray McCallum all replaced Drexler...or maybe not.

He is referring to Pitino at UK.

There are some pretty loose definitions of "legend" here. I would only consider of few of those coaches as legends. My list would include John Wooden, Adolph Rupp, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight and not many more in the post war era.

My pick for best job by a successor goes to Gene Bartow, who went 52-9 in his two seasons at UCLA, including a Final Four and a Sweet Sixteen in the NCAAT. Sadly for him, that wasn't good enough for UCLA fans.

(03-09-2015 12:15 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 09:35 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Jim Valvano for Norm Sloan?

heh, I saw the tail end of the 30 for 30 on NC State this evening on ESPN and thought that exact same question. probably not long enough for Valvano but his team probably did more for March Madness than any other that we've ever seen.

But Valvano had very few great teams and that does not include the 1983 team, which mysteriously found ways to pull a rabbit out of their hat for the last month of the season (they were good, not great). I can't say Jimmy V. is a legend beyond the impact he's had on sports culture, which is to say that he is a legend.

Edit: Though its obvious who I root for, I think most on the board know I'm good for separating my bias from objectivity.

(03-09-2015 11:54 AM)ken d Wrote:  There are some pretty loose definitions of "legend" here. I would only consider of few of those coaches as legends. My list would include John Wooden, Adolph Rupp, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight and not many more in the post war era.

My pick for best job by a successor goes to Gene Bartow, who went 52-9 in his two seasons at UCLA, including a Final Four and a Sweet Sixteen in the NCAAT. Sadly for him, that wasn't good enough for UCLA fans.

You are off center here. You need to read this.

10 Greatest Men's College Basketball Coaches.

1. Mike Krzyzewski (I call this Bull $hit)
2. John Wooden
3. Bobby Knight
4. Dean Smith
5. Jim Calhoun
6. Adolph Rupp
7. Rick Pitino
8. Billy Donovan
9. Roy Williams
10. Denny Crum

(03-09-2015 10:40 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 08:52 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 05:12 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-08-2015 12:33 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say Crum over Hall because Big East and now ACC light years better than what the SEC was.

When do you think that SEC basketball was "light years" behind the ACC or Big East?

Historically the SEC in Basketball is Kentucky and 13 Jabronis...doesn't measure up to the B1G, ACC or the Old BIG EAST in Basketball...still one hellva College Football Conference....

You do realize that from 1980 - 2012 the SEC had the same number of Final 4 appearances and national titles as the Big East, right?

The Big East didn't win a national title for 14 years, from 1985 - 1999, and only had 2 teams make the Final 4 during the entire 1990s. For six straight years, 1990-1995, no Big East teams made the Final 4.

The B1G hasn't won a national title since when, 2000? That's 15 years! And just one in the past 1/4 century. And yet the B1G is always touted as a top basketball conference. Lots of teams in the Final 4 (24 since 1980) but since the 1980s they don't convert them into titles.

This is the 20th anniversary of the PAC's last national title.

Since the formation of the Big 12 in 1996, the Big 12 has put 7 teams in the Final 4. The SEC has had 12 during that same time.

Just about everyone goes through down times. Even the mighty ACC hasn't had a Final 4 team in 5 years.

The SEC isn't doing so bad and hasn't, historically.

History started before 1980...hence my phrasing of the word "Historically"

B1G Current Schools Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Maryland and Ohio State won NCAA Titles-(Maryland as a ACC Member)

Pac 12 Current Schools Oregon, UCLA, Arizona, Stanford, Cal and Utah won NCAA Titles-(Utah as a Member of the WAC)

Old BIG EAST Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, UConn, Louisville, Cincinnati and Marquette won NCAA Titles...(Marquette as a Indy and UC as a Member of the MVC).

ACC Current Schools UNC, Duke, NC State, Louisville, Syracuse with Louisville and Syracuse winning it in the Old BIG EAST

SEC Current Schools Kentucky, Florida and Arkansas

..spin it like you want...