I think if they don't get rolled by UConn, then they get a better seed.

(01-15-2015 12:30 PM)CKMcDan Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:17 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Those important games got them an 8 seed.

YAY!

One has to wonder if we had been in CUSA last year (and gone undefeated conf. reg. season & tourney like we did the year before), would we have gotten a higher seed? We would have finished with gaudy record, and would probably have played another good team non-conference besides Ok State & Florida. We had non-conference wins vs. #5 OK State & #23 Gonzaga, and a 2-pt loss to #16 Florida (who ended up the overall #1 going into the NCAA's).

You have to assume we would have gotten a higher seed, considering we won 30 games in 2012-13 (with no wins vs. ranked teams), and ended up with a 6-seed.

We also had a bit of bad luck. It turns out that all of our wins against AAC teams were undervalued, and Oklahoma State was going to be a bonafide top 5 team if Cobbins doesn't get hurt. None of the miserables mention Pellom, but we would have been a much better team if he would have stayed healthy.

Bottom line is, when Pastner is put out of our misery, we'll have plenty of candidates. Anyone comparing this with Cal leaving is out of their collective minds. No explanation needed.

(01-15-2015 12:41 PM)450bench Wrote:  Bottom line is, when Pastner is put out of our misery, we'll have plenty of candidates. Anyone comparing this with Cal leaving is out of their collective minds. No explanation needed.

Again, history tells us that programs of our stature will be underwhelmed by the replacement, and even sure fire candidates have a difficult time achieving success.

I hope we get lucky.

(01-15-2015 09:17 AM)TripleA Wrote:  ...

I agree that Pastner was in a tough position following Calipari, and I think to this day, a segment of the fan base is holding him to the standard of Cal's last 4 years, which would have been unfair to anybody, including Cal and his first 5 years.

I really don't think this is true. Four straight 30 win seasons, one conference loss, two Elite Eights, a Sweet Sixteen, and a National Championship game. No one expected that. One sweet sixteen over the past 4 years and no one is really talking seriously about moving on. Maybe even if we'd gotten seeded higher in the tournament a couple of times and just had some bad luck in the second round.

Instead, what we've had is a several seasons where the team has been worse than, not just what the fans expected, but just about all the coaches and media expected as well.

I think in some ways Pastner has been the victim of his own success on the recruiting trail. If he hadn't got all of these high rated recruits people wouldn't have expected that to translate into better results. I think his record would be more respected if he had done it without the 4 and 5 star guys that keep not living up to their hype for whatever reason.

The question is, would he have been able to have what limited success he did have without all that talent, and I think for a lot of people, they've come to believe the answer to that is no. And if the tail on that curve is on the downswing (which for a lot people looks to be what is happening), do we really want to watch what happens to the program when he can't get players anymore?


*edit * I see a million people got there before me.

(01-15-2015 12:41 PM)450bench Wrote:  Bottom line is, when Pastner is put out of our misery, we'll have plenty of candidates. Anyone comparing this with Cal leaving is out of their collective minds. No explanation needed.

How best do we put him out of our misery? At least one honest fellow is praying with all his hate, lol, that we lose by 30 tonight.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-723270.html

Edit: Before everyone jumps in and says no one hates Pastner, I think that's probably true. Hate is just a coverup for other imbalances.

Why and if about the past is not productive. This years' team has a lot of players who are new to the team, so everyone is adjusting. This year will not be what people are used to, but you can't keep going to the NCAA Tourney every year. Even the great HC can't go every year. Pastner needs to learn during this rebuilding year on how to improve on his coaching skills. Pastner is not a great HC, but he is good. He can improve, but he needs to want to learn and adjust. Every year, the team is different, and he has to learn to adjust to the differences.

He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

it doesn't really matter anymore. You guys can keep beating a dead horse. He's most likely gone after this year (100% gone if Marshall is really available), next year at the latest barring some unbelievable turnaround in not only results but style of play. It is what it is.

(01-15-2015 01:20 PM)fsquid Wrote:  it doesn't really matter anymore. You guys can keep beating a dead horse. He's most likely gone after this year (100% gone if Marshall is really available), next year at the latest barring some unbelievable turnaround in not only results but style of play. It is what it is.

Interesting.

I still think he gets next year unless there is a complete meltdown to end the season.

(01-15-2015 12:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:30 PM)CKMcDan Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:17 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Those important games got them an 8 seed.

YAY!

One has to wonder if we had been in CUSA last year (and gone undefeated conf. reg. season & tourney like we did the year before), would we have gotten a higher seed? We would have finished with gaudy record, and would probably have played another good team non-conference besides Ok State & Florida. We had non-conference wins vs. #5 OK State & #23 Gonzaga, and a 2-pt loss to #16 Florida (who ended up the overall #1 going into the NCAA's).

You have to assume we would have gotten a higher seed, considering we won 30 games in 2012-13 (with no wins vs. ranked teams), and ended up with a 6-seed.

We also had a bit of bad luck. It turns out that all of our wins against AAC teams were undervalued, and Oklahoma State was going to be a bonafide top 5 team if Cobbins doesn't get hurt. None of the miserables mention Pellom, but we would have been a much better team if he would have stayed healthy.

Calipari's teams, particularly his 2006-07 & 2008-09 teams, started out poorly, but racked up a bunch of wins in the conference (undefeated both years). Both those teams ended up with 30+ wins, 2 seeds, and had deep runs in the tournament. Calipari himself talked about the importance of a high seed for a deep tournament run.

I wonder how last year's team would have fared in the NCAA"s against the caliber teams the 2006-07 team played (North Tx, Nevada, Tx A&M & Ohio State), and against the teams the 2008-09 team played (CS Northridge, Maryland & Missouri)?

I'll go out on a limb and predict that, under that scenario, last year's team wins the 1st game, struggles to win the 2nd, and loses in the Sweet 16. A Sweet 16 run last year probably buys Pastner some patience from the fans for the team's struggles this year.

(01-15-2015 10:22 AM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:07 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:04 AM)Ian Flux Wrote:  He recruited great and that is a strong credit to him. But he underachieved predominantly with that talent. Our team was ranked in the top 20 four straight seasons and ended the year ranked only once.

Making the tournament 4 straight years is great as well, but based on preseason rankings, we were expected to make the tournament. Moreso, we were expected to make deep runs in the tournament. But we didn't and that's the frustration.

Spot on

I think the blame for the lack of "tourney runs" stems from our seeding. Seems we're stuck in that 7-10 seed spot. Rare to make runs from those seeds. Blame Josh for not getting us a better seed, but to expect us to take down a 1 or 2 seed (in order to make run) is foolish.
Cal never made a run until he was a 1,2, or 3 seed.

If you are top 4 seed, expect a run.

7-10, not so much.

Honestly, I never expected us to take down MSU or UVA. What I would like to see is us actually being competitive against these type of teams. That would at least show progress. Repeatedly getting skulldragged every year is getting old. Even if we didn't make a S16, if Josh could just play one of these teams close then that would at least give people some hope.

(01-15-2015 01:23 PM)CKMcDan Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:30 PM)CKMcDan Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 12:17 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Those important games got them an 8 seed.

YAY!

One has to wonder if we had been in CUSA last year (and gone undefeated conf. reg. season & tourney like we did the year before), would we have gotten a higher seed? We would have finished with gaudy record, and would probably have played another good team non-conference besides Ok State & Florida. We had non-conference wins vs. #5 OK State & #23 Gonzaga, and a 2-pt loss to #16 Florida (who ended up the overall #1 going into the NCAA's).

You have to assume we would have gotten a higher seed, considering we won 30 games in 2012-13 (with no wins vs. ranked teams), and ended up with a 6-seed.

We also had a bit of bad luck. It turns out that all of our wins against AAC teams were undervalued, and Oklahoma State was going to be a bonafide top 5 team if Cobbins doesn't get hurt. None of the miserables mention Pellom, but we would have been a much better team if he would have stayed healthy.

Calipari's teams, particularly his 2006-07 & 2008-09 teams, started out poorly, but racked up a bunch of wins in the conference (undefeated both years). Both those teams ended up with 30+ wins, 2 seeds, and had deep runs in the tournament. Calipari himself talked about the importance of a high seed for a deep tournament run.

I wonder how last year's team would have fared in the NCAA"s against the caliber teams the 2006-07 team played (North Tx, Nevada, Tx A&M & Ohio State), and against the teams the 2008-09 team played (CS Northridge, Maryland & Missouri)?

I'll go out on a limb and predict that, under that scenario, last year's team wins the 1st game, struggles to win the 2nd, and loses in the Sweet 16. A Sweet 16 run last year probably buys Pastner some patience from the fans for the team's struggles this year.

Cal's teams ran through the CUSA Tourney as well.

I think the committee definitely noticed the Tigers getting skull dragged in the first round of the AAC tournament on their home floor.

(01-15-2015 01:25 PM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:22 AM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:07 AM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:04 AM)Ian Flux Wrote:  He recruited great and that is a strong credit to him. But he underachieved predominantly with that talent. Our team was ranked in the top 20 four straight seasons and ended the year ranked only once.

Making the tournament 4 straight years is great as well, but based on preseason rankings, we were expected to make the tournament. Moreso, we were expected to make deep runs in the tournament. But we didn't and that's the frustration.

Spot on

I think the blame for the lack of "tourney runs" stems from our seeding. Seems we're stuck in that 7-10 seed spot. Rare to make runs from those seeds. Blame Josh for not getting us a better seed, but to expect us to take down a 1 or 2 seed (in order to make run) is foolish.
Cal never made a run until he was a 1,2, or 3 seed.

If you are top 4 seed, expect a run.

7-10, not so much.

Honestly, I never expected us to take down MSU or UVA. What I would like to see is us actually being competitive against these type of teams. That would at least show progress. Repeatedly getting skulldragged every year is getting old. Even if we didn't make a S16, if Josh could just play one of these teams close then that would at least give people some hope.

You can tell it is something fundamental about the toughness or competitive drive or something.

The Tigers ran the offense and stayed with UVA for the first 10 minutes.

Austin misses a few bunnies and UVA hits back to back threes and the Tigers folded.

The second half was nothing but a layup drill for UVA.

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Possible result? We will have a very well coached team of marginally talented players, and won't make the tournament for a couple of years. Another possibility is that we get someone like Bruce Webber or Mike Davis, that is able to get us to a higher level until they bring in their players.

We could hit a homerun and hire Gregg Marshall, we could hit a homerun and hire a Mike Anderson type, and not make the tournament for 3 years, and we could hire a Frank Haith or John Pelphrey type. Maybe we will get a young Bill Self.

The bottom line...very simple concept, is that history is not on our side. When I say our side; I am talking about programs that fit into the top 15-35; depending on if they are in middle of an up or down tick.

(01-15-2015 01:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Possible result? We will have a very well coached team of marginally talented players, and won't make the tournament for a couple of years. Another possibility is that we get someone like Bruce Webber or Mike Davis, that is able to get us to a higher level until they bring in their players.

We could hit a homerun and hire Gregg Marshall, we could hit a homerun and hire a Mike Anderson type, and not make the tournament for 3 years, and we could hire a Frank Haith or John Pelphrey type. Maybe we will get a young Bill Self.

The bottom line...very simple concept, is that history is not on our side. When I say our side; I am talking about programs that fit into the top 15-35; depending on if they are in middle of an up or down tick.

These guys are all probably rated higher than Baskerville, Doom, Bobby Parks and Andre Turner. Keith might be the exception. Who wins that game?

(01-15-2015 01:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Possible result? We will have a very well coached team of marginally talented players, and won't make the tournament for a couple of years. Another possibility is that we get someone like Bruce Webber or Mike Davis, that is able to get us to a higher level until they bring in their players.

We could hit a homerun and hire Gregg Marshall, we could hit a homerun and hire a Mike Anderson type, and not make the tournament for 3 years, and we could hire a Frank Haith or John Pelphrey type. Maybe we will get a young Bill Self.

The bottom line...very simple concept, is that history is not on our side. When I say our side; I am talking about programs that fit into the top 15-35; depending on if they are in middle of an up or down tick.

Most of Pastner's top recruits come from Memphis. He was red hot outside the city at first - Bartons, Kendrick, Shaq - but the majority of his highest ranked players are Memphians - the Memphis Magic (Joe, Chris, Tarik, Adonis), Austin Nichols, and the Lawsons.

And he's lost his fair share from the city as well that the next coach might be able to sway instead - Chiozza, Anthlon Bell, JW3, Skal, Leron Black, etc.

The next coach will be able to recruit the city. Even Tic got players out of the city that were highly-ranked at the time - Paris, Terry Rogers (ineligible), Detric, Snap, Scooter, Lou Wright (ineligible) etc. Tic also landed Kelly Wise, one of the top ten big men in Tiger history, from outside of Memphis (Florida).

I think it's a tad disingenuous to claim that the next coach won't be able to recruit well here when even Tic Price recruited well.

(01-15-2015 01:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Possible result? We will have a very well coached team of marginally talented players, and won't make the tournament for a couple of years. Another possibility is that we get someone like Bruce Webber or Mike Davis, that is able to get us to a higher level until they bring in their players.

We could hit a homerun and hire Gregg Marshall, we could hit a homerun and hire a Mike Anderson type, and not make the tournament for 3 years, and we could hire a Frank Haith or John Pelphrey type. Maybe we will get a young Bill Self.

The bottom line...very simple concept, is that history is not on our side. When I say our side; I am talking about programs that fit into the top 15-35; depending on if they are in middle of an up or down tick.

Give me a break. The majority of the high level recruits he has landed have been from Memphis. I'm not saying he is not a good recruiter, but let's call a spade a spade. To say that he is the only coach that could land high level kids from the city is a bit ridiculous.

(01-15-2015 01:52 PM)RekeHavoc Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Possible result? We will have a very well coached team of marginally talented players, and won't make the tournament for a couple of years. Another possibility is that we get someone like Bruce Webber or Mike Davis, that is able to get us to a higher level until they bring in their players.

We could hit a homerun and hire Gregg Marshall, we could hit a homerun and hire a Mike Anderson type, and not make the tournament for 3 years, and we could hire a Frank Haith or John Pelphrey type. Maybe we will get a young Bill Self.

The bottom line...very simple concept, is that history is not on our side. When I say our side; I am talking about programs that fit into the top 15-35; depending on if they are in middle of an up or down tick.

Give me a break. The majority of the high level recruits he has landed have been from Memphis. I'm not saying he is not a good recruiter, but let's call a spade a spade. To say that he is the only coach that could land high level kids from the city is a bit ridiculous.

Exactly. We need a leader that will excite the fan base and players know their skills will be developed. If he is half the recruiter JP is then he will still get 80% of the Memphis kids that he offers

(01-15-2015 01:40 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 01:09 PM)rc0213 Wrote:  He will be blamed by people for poorly the teamed performed, but there are some things out of his control. And, if people want Pastner gone, then they better come up with a HC that will bring the team to the NCAA Tourney every year, especially the first year, because you will be wanting them fired every year.

Again, and for the final time.

It's about not meeting expectations.

You recruit top 10 recruiting classes, then the expectation is to advance in the tourney.

Sorry some of you can't grasp a simple concept.

Some of you can't grasp the simple concept, that Pastner is an exceptional recruiter, and that it is unlikely that any replacement will be able to recruit half as well.

Disagree...because I think any new coach will put a lot more effort in scouting/recruiting NATIONALLY at the HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL compared to Pastner, as he seems to always fall in love with other program castoffs.

Pastner's weakness at this time is that he seems to recruit individuals, not team players, and that has cost Memphis during his tenure.

Memphis is easily a Top 15 type national program...and SHOULD have the pick of the liter of HS recruits from all over the country...but for some reason, Pastner seems to always looking for a quick fix...on players with just 1 or 2 years of eligibility vs trying to BUILD a program....or he is afraid to jump on a plane and focus on HS players across the country.

Some Tiger fans (small number) seem to want to win in fictitious signing day rankings in November...vs trying to win in March.

I think the next coach, using EVERYTHING that Memphis' program will have to offer, will build up more depth, thru HS recruiting and ultimately, have more March success vs Pastner's strategy of reaching for so many cast-offs, some that put up good stats but were never great TEAM players...and poof, they were done.

Programs outside the Top 100 should be the ones reaching for 1 year transfers/castoffs, etc...not those that can pick and choose Top 50 HS players in the nation.