(12-29-2014 10:45 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 10:36 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 10:31 PM)pono Wrote:  honestly, i've yet to see boothe clearly commit a foul this season. never seen a player have such a hard time with refs.

I don't disagree that some of the calls look weak -- but they keep happening. Why??

Has the coach commented on reasons?

Have never heard him say anything regarding it.

i posted on this previously and my theory is he's a big sorta slow and soft looking white guy who actually has better feet and defensive skill than refs anticipate. in an era where offense is mostly 3s or attacking the basket and refs are tasked by the ncaa with eliminating physical defense to increase offensive entertainment it is very hard for a guy like boothe to play d. jordan lauf makes defensive plays every game by setting up charges, flopping, or fighting for balls on the floor of in the scrum. that kind of d gets rewarded. playing good physical fundamental post defense makes refs uncomfortable. when a guy who doesn't really look the part can establish and hold position to stop offense, it feels wrong to them.

Interesting theory. Refs are trained too. Training is going to create a bias of expectations. Things that happen outside those expectations are going to look "wrong" and might get called. If supportable, it should all be on tape.

(12-29-2014 10:51 PM)pono Wrote:  i posted on this previously and my theory is he's a big sorta slow and soft looking white guy who actually has better feet and defensive skill than refs anticipate. in an era where offense is mostly 3s or attacking the basket and refs are tasked by the ncaa with eliminating physical defense to increase offensive entertainment it is very hard for a guy like boothe to play d. jordan lauf makes defensive plays every game by setting up charges, flopping, or fighting for balls on the floor of in the scrum. that kind of d gets rewarded. playing good physical fundamental post defense makes refs uncomfortable. when a guy who doesn't really look the part can establish and hold position to stop offense, it feels wrong to them.

I don't know Pono. You're kind of stating that Boothe is so good defensively that he should rarely get called for fouls...emphasizing that he might know the rule book better than the refs. Don't get me wrong, I think sometimes the refs anticipate more contact from Boothe, hence the foul call. His athleticism and good acting skills kind of give the impression that he never fouls. I've seen guys in high school games with similar techniques.

Because the majority of refs have called Boothe relatively the same way, I tend to lean towards him adjusting his game to keep his a$$ in the game. This whole get two fouls before the first media timeout is getting old and he needs to figure out a way to stay on the court longer.

not so much that he is so good defensively, just that he is solid at establishing position and then holding it. when an offensive guy makes an aggressive play to get position or go to the basket and boothe is in the way, boothe gets called, but he had a right to the spot he established himself in. refs this era are more likely to reward a defender for sliding in front of a driver and acting out a charge, than guys who just play good position d and don't act.

I agree with H2O that Boothe is doing a better job of avoiding fouls. Maybe not against the best center in the nation, but certainly better than when he started as a freshman. He's going to struggle against athletic centers. He's averaging slightly more than 3 fouls per game this season and has fouled out of two games. I think, in general, he'll be fine in the MAC. Every so often he will show some nice moves under the basket. I'd like to see more of his offense in the paint.

Good golly. Boothe does what he can with what he's got. Boothe has one of the few body types on Toledo's bench needed to play inside, however Boothe is not really an inside player. He can square up when give time, but he's more comfortable shooting. He's the best Toledo has. Toledo does not have a true center and Boothe is doing the best he can. Yes, sometimes he is a step behind, and yes that means sometimes the fouls will pile up, and yes that does affect Toledo's game plan. But again, he's all Toledo has and he's doing the best he can. No, there is not some referee conspiracy going on every single night, he's just a guy playing out of position. Sorry, but officials are not targeting him. I'll take Boothe though, over just about anyone else in the MAC.

I was surprised to see some of the reaction to adunifon's initial comment. It didn't seem to me that he was personally attacking Boothe. In fact, he was emphasizing that Boothe is a valuable guy for us to have on the court.

As others have said, I don't buy the idea that Boothe rarely fouls, but every referee from every conference calls fouls against him anyway. He doesn't hack guys on the arm because he doesn't try to block shots. He does make contact with his body, though. For a guy who never blocks a shot, he does foul too much. That's a weakness in his game, and both Boothe and Coach K have said so publicly.

I agree with whoever said we can't use last night as a measuring stick. Boothe was guarding a future NBA star, and he was outclassed. Boothe is a good MAC center, though. I don't agree with those who say that he is playing out of position. Just because the guy can shoot doesn't mean he is not a center. Defensively, he would be worse off playing any other position, and he doesn't drive to the basket. He has a pretty decent post game, as well, and he has the size of a MAC center.

If Garber had a more developed offensive game, then we could afford to have Boothe on the bench with foul trouble. As things stand, we are a much better team with him on the floor.

(12-30-2014 09:23 AM)Dwight Wrote:  I was surprised to see some of the reaction to adunifon's initial comment. It didn't seem to me that he was personally attacking Boothe. In fact, he was emphasizing that Boothe is a valuable guy for us to have on the court.

As others have said, I don't buy the idea that Boothe rarely fouls, but every referee from every conference calls fouls against him anyway. He doesn't hack guys on the arm because he doesn't try to block shots. He does make contact with his body, though. For a guy who never blocks a shot, he does foul too much. That's a weakness in his game, and both Boothe and Coach K have said so publicly.

I agree with whoever said we can't use last night as a measuring stick. Boothe was guarding a future NBA star, and he was outclassed. Boothe is a good MAC center, though. I don't agree with those who say that he is playing out of position. Just because the guy can shoot doesn't mean he is not a center. Defensively, he would be worse off playing any other position, and he doesn't drive to the basket. He has a pretty decent post game, as well, and he has the size of a MAC center.

If Garber had a more developed offensive game, then we could afford to have Boothe on the bench with foul trouble. As things stand, we are a much better team with him on the floor.

Thank you. From the initial feedback I got, I felt like people thought I was attacking the kid. Anything but. He and the coaches need to find a way to keep him on the floor.

(12-29-2014 09:19 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:15 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:14 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:11 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:08 PM)adunifon Wrote:  He is going to make or break the season for this team. He's killing them with foul trouble in every game right now . We can sit here and talk about the questionable calls, but after it happens in EVERY game he needs to find a way to adjust and stay on the floor. Never in the rhythm of the game because he's spending most of the time on the bench.

Playing down a man every night is killing us.

There's nothing he can do when refs call BS fouls on him every single game. I think it was the VCU game where the ESPN guys were saying that he's so athletic that the refs think he fouls because he's in such good position.

If it happens in every game at some point HE has to adjust. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Or something like that.

So he should just become a bad defender? Should he just let guys go bye? Grab them everytime?

Needs to find a way to adjust. Coaches need to figure it out too. Need him too much on offense to lose him to foul trouble every game.

It will make or break if this team gets it done in cleveland in March.

Everyone, that means the coaches and Nathan need to make sure, we find a way to keep hi, out of foul trouble, because, when Garber come in, it's like playing 4 on 5. Can't score, can't rebound, can't run.

(12-30-2014 10:15 AM)FrickerRon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:19 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:15 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:14 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:11 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  There's nothing he can do when refs call BS fouls on him every single game. I think it was the VCU game where the ESPN guys were saying that he's so athletic that the refs think he fouls because he's in such good position.

If it happens in every game at some point HE has to adjust. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Or something like that.

So he should just become a bad defender? Should he just let guys go bye? Grab them everytime?

Needs to find a way to adjust. Coaches need to figure it out too. Need him too much on offense to lose him to foul trouble every game.

It will make or break if this team gets it done in cleveland in March.

Everyone, that means the coaches and Nathan need to make sure, we find a way to keep hi, out of foul trouble, because, when Garber come in, it's like playing 4 on 5. Can't score, can't rebound, can't run.

Coach K did say Garber was the third best shooter on the team. I'm not overly impressed with our coaching of big men. Garber had a lot of nice MAC offers, just doesn't seem to be developing. That may be on the coaching staff.

(12-30-2014 09:23 AM)Dwight Wrote:  I was surprised to see some of the reaction to adunifon's initial comment. It didn't seem to me that he was personally attacking Boothe. In fact, he was emphasizing that Boothe is a valuable guy for us to have on the court.

As others have said, I don't buy the idea that Boothe rarely fouls, but every referee from every conference calls fouls against him anyway. He doesn't hack guys on the arm because he doesn't try to block shots. He does make contact with his body, though. For a guy who never blocks a shot, he does foul too much. That's a weakness in his game, and both Boothe and Coach K have said so publicly.

I agree with whoever said we can't use last night as a measuring stick. Boothe was guarding a future NBA star, and he was outclassed. Boothe is a good MAC center, though. I don't agree with those who say that he is playing out of position. Just because the guy can shoot doesn't mean he is not a center. Defensively, he would be worse off playing any other position, and he doesn't drive to the basket. He has a pretty decent post game, as well, and he has the size of a MAC center.

If Garber had a more developed offensive game, then we could afford to have Boothe on the bench with foul trouble. As things stand, we are a much better team with him on the floor.

Never blocks a shot? He's top ten in the MAC at over one a game and blocked Okafur's last night. Not a shot swatter, more like Russell blocking down or tipping so a teammate has a chance at the loose ball, but he'll pass almost every Rocket before he's through.

I take it back. He's got eighty in two years...at his current rate he WILL pass everyone. Pins on would have destroyed every shot block record around if he played four years but Boothe will surpass all of them.

(12-30-2014 10:49 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 10:15 AM)FrickerRon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:19 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:15 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:14 PM)adunifon Wrote:  If it happens in every game at some point HE has to adjust. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Or something like that.

So he should just become a bad defender? Should he just let guys go bye? Grab them everytime?

Needs to find a way to adjust. Coaches need to figure it out too. Need him too much on offense to lose him to foul trouble every game.

It will make or break if this team gets it done in cleveland in March.

Everyone, that means the coaches and Nathan need to make sure, we find a way to keep hi, out of foul trouble, because, when Garber come in, it's like playing 4 on 5. Can't score, can't rebound, can't run.

Coach K did say Garber was the third best shooter on the team. I'm not overly impressed with our coaching of big men. Garber had a lot of nice MAC offers, just doesn't seem to be developing. That may be on the coaching staff.

I think one of Garbers biggest issues is he doesn't play with enough confidence. I think he plays as an adjunct to the offense setting picks and passing instead of being aggressivbe and looking to score himself. I don't feel it's that he can't score. He surley needs to be more aggressive on the offensive boards also. Neither him nor Boothe figure much here.

(12-30-2014 11:20 AM)utrocks84 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 10:49 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 10:15 AM)FrickerRon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:19 PM)adunifon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:15 PM)MidnightBlueGold Wrote:  So he should just become a bad defender? Should he just let guys go bye? Grab them everytime?

Needs to find a way to adjust. Coaches need to figure it out too. Need him too much on offense to lose him to foul trouble every game.

It will make or break if this team gets it done in cleveland in March.

Everyone, that means the coaches and Nathan need to make sure, we find a way to keep hi, out of foul trouble, because, when Garber come in, it's like playing 4 on 5. Can't score, can't rebound, can't run.

Coach K did say Garber was the third best shooter on the team. I'm not overly impressed with our coaching of big men. Garber had a lot of nice MAC offers, just doesn't seem to be developing. That may be on the coaching staff.

I think one of Garbers biggest issues is he doesn't play with enough confidence. I think he plays as an adjunct to the offense setting picks and passing instead of being aggressivbe and looking to score himself. I don't feel it's that he can't score. He surley needs to be more aggressive on the offensive boards also. Neither him nor Boothe figure much here.

And I think THIS happens because, when Garber has been on the floor, it's almost always as the replacement for Boothe, which means his "role" in the offense is largely at the high post, where Boothe spends much of his time (usually productively)...I would like to see Toledo run a little bit different offensive set when Garber is on the floor, and play him closer to the basket more intentionally. I don't think Garber fills Boothe's "high post" shoes as well as he might a "low post" presence on the blocks.

(12-30-2014 11:52 AM)bcunn3128 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 11:20 AM)utrocks84 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 10:49 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 10:15 AM)FrickerRon Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 09:19 PM)adunifon Wrote:  Needs to find a way to adjust. Coaches need to figure it out too. Need him too much on offense to lose him to foul trouble every game.

It will make or break if this team gets it done in cleveland in March.

Everyone, that means the coaches and Nathan need to make sure, we find a way to keep hi, out of foul trouble, because, when Garber come in, it's like playing 4 on 5. Can't score, can't rebound, can't run.

Coach K did say Garber was the third best shooter on the team. I'm not overly impressed with our coaching of big men. Garber had a lot of nice MAC offers, just doesn't seem to be developing. That may be on the coaching staff.

I think one of Garbers biggest issues is he doesn't play with enough confidence. I think he plays as an adjunct to the offense setting picks and passing instead of being aggressivbe and looking to score himself. I don't feel it's that he can't score. He surley needs to be more aggressive on the offensive boards also. Neither him nor Boothe figure much here.

And I think THIS happens because, when Garber has been on the floor, it's almost always as the replacement for Boothe, which means his "role" in the offense is largely at the high post, where Boothe spends much of his time (usually productively)...I would like to see Toledo run a little bit different offensive set when Garber is on the floor, and play him closer to the basket more intentionally. I don't think Garber fills Boothe's "high post" shoes as well as he might a "low post" presence on the blocks.

I'd like to see them both on the floor at the same time in certain situations.

I don't understand all of the negative comments about Boothe's defensive skills. Yes, he does get beat at times on the low post BUT so do post players from all teams. The thing to watch is how much help he gets from his weak side team mates. Answer...when Weatherspoon is in the game none. Other than Lauf, who does step in, even taking a number of charges, there is no help or defensive rotation. It has been that way for our post players over the past three seasons. The defensive break downs are a team thing. They don't fall on the shoulders of one or two players. It looks like the team is playing some kind "fake help defense." The result of this lack of help causes Boothe and Garber to reach or be out of position more. The officials are not targeting Boothe. All officiating crews can't be looking to create problems for him. My experience is that most officials try to call an honest game. There are always calls made that all of us wonder about when it is called against our teams. The rule I have always followed is that after a game, if the officials were not noticeable or memorable, then they called a great game.

(12-30-2014 12:34 PM)hwut1 Wrote:  I don't understand all of the negative comments about Boothe's defensive skills. Yes, he does get beat at times on the low post BUT so do post players from all teams. The thing to watch is how much help he gets from his weak side team mates. Answer...when Weatherspoon is in the game none. Other than Lauf, who does step in, even taking a number of charges, there is no help or defensive rotation. It has been that way for our post players over the past three seasons. The defensive break downs are a team thing. They don't fall on the shoulders of one or two players. It looks like the team is playing some kind "fake help defense." The result of this lack of help causes Boothe and Garber to reach or be out of position more. The officials are not targeting Boothe. All officiating crews can't be looking to create problems for him. My experience hopis that most officials try to call an honest game. There are always calls made that all of us wonder about when it is called against our teams. The rule I have always followed is that after a game, if the officials were not
noticeable or

memorable, then they called a great game.

Blade discussed that Boothe would not get help with Okafur because of his great passing. The two doubles I remember resulted in assists for Okafur.

(12-30-2014 03:22 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 12:34 PM)hwut1 Wrote:  I don't understand all of the negative comments about Boothe's defensive skills. Yes, he does get beat at times on the low post BUT so do post players from all teams. The thing to watch is how much help he gets from his weak side team mates. Answer...when Weatherspoon is in the game none. Other than Lauf, who does step in, even taking a number of charges, there is no help or defensive rotation. It has been that way for our post players over the past three seasons. The defensive break downs are a team thing. They don't fall on the shoulders of one or two players. It looks like the team is playing some kind "fake help defense." The result of this lack of help causes Boothe and Garber to reach or be out of position more. The officials are not targeting Boothe. All officiating crews can't be looking to create problems for him. My experience hopis that most officials try to call an honest game. There are always calls made that all of us wonder about when it is called against our teams. The rule I have always followed is that after a game, if the officials were not
noticeable or

memorable, then they called a great game.

Blade discussed that Boothe would not get help with Okafur because of his great passing. The two doubles I remember resulted in assists for Okafur.

I read that too. I can see both sides of that strategy. However, there hasn't been any weak side help for our big guys on defense in games over the past three years. Like I said, Lauf is the only one who steps in to help inside.
Watch our defense inside. You will see what I am talking about.

(12-30-2014 03:38 PM)hwut1 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 03:22 PM)H2Oville Rocket Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 12:34 PM)hwut1 Wrote:  I don't understand all of the negative comments about Boothe's defensive skills. Yes, he does get beat at times on the low post BUT so do post players from all teams. The thing to watch is how much help he gets from his weak side team mates. Answer...when Weatherspoon is in the game none. Other than Lauf, who does step in, even taking a number of charges, there is no help or defensive rotation. It has been that way for our post players over the past three seasons. The defensive break downs are a team thing. They don't fall on the shoulders of one or two players. It looks like the team is playing some kind "fake help defense." The result of this lack of help causes Boothe and Garber to reach or be out of position more. The officials are not targeting Boothe. All officiating crews can't be looking to create problems for him. My experience hopis that most officials try to call an honest game. There are always calls made that all of us wonder about when it is called against our teams. The rule I have always followed is that after a game, if the officials were not
noticeable or

memorable, then they called a great game.

Blade discussed that Boothe would not get help with Okafur because of his great passing. The two doubles I remember resulted in assists for Okafur.

I read that too. I can see both sides of that strategy. However, there hasn't been any weak side help for our big guys on defense in games over the past three years. Like I said, Lauf is the only one who steps in to help inside.
Watch our defense inside. You will see what I am talking about.

I think a lot of this stems from the concern of perimeter coverage and lack of recovery speed. Everyone is worried the last 2 years about other teams shooting 3's. Pick your poison.