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College Football and Communism
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #1
Exclamation College Football and Communism
pulling this out into a new thread from the CFP thread to hopefully discuss--the parallels are just too compelling to ignore
(12-07-2014 08:35 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  [quote='Tiki Owl' pid='11508195' dateline='1417929635']

BTW, IMO, the Committee loses all credibility if

I'm not picking on you at all personally here, Walt, I just saw that phrase in the middle of your post and had a moment of clarity.

IMO the Committee lost all credibility the moment it was formed. This whole thing reeks of socialism/Marxism and that is probably why I feel so negative towards it. Whether NCAA or CFA or BCS or now CFP, it is rule by elite Oligarchy when it could just as readily and more fairly all be decided on the field with a 32 or 64 team playoff. (yeah, reduce the regular-season schedule by 1 or 2 games if you have to).

Same as the P5 conspiring with the Bowls to nearly completely shut out all the G5 schools from having a chance to go for a signature win at the end of a season. I used to think the Liberty Bowl stunk for a championship game, but now I wish we had a chance for our conference champ to play that 6-6 SEC team again. Our bowl lineup is a joke, as are the other G5 conference bowl line-ups. We have been told by the elite who we are and where we stand in this caste system. We have been ordered to like it for the good of the many.

This is just so unAmerican. But it does clearly illustrate the fallacy of liberalism/socialism/communism/Marxism for anyone so inclined to tout those policies in other areas of life/society. Liberty/capitalism and freedom to decide how good/bad you are or how much/little talent you have or how well you do/do not measure up or how much you are/aren't willing to work or spend or sacrifice are the best and fairest ways for humans to live and decide all issues in life.

Thanks for helping me see the direct correlation between this NCAA/CFP/P5/-G5 BS and the problems in our society in general. It's an example as clear as day to anyone with a brain. And if you don't think so, then you should be happy for Rice to be and remain always a doormat in CUSA or drop down to sunbelt or worse with a smile on your face--that's what the elites think about us so we should bow to their wisdom instead of fighting for our capitalistic freedom to choose/fail or win/succeed on our own terms.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 01:17 PM by GoodOwl.)
12-07-2014 01:14 PM
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tramile12 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: College Football and Communism
This is so very Rice and dramatic, but it rings true. Absolutely true.
12-07-2014 01:19 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: College Football and Communism
Several months ago on the Parliament, I commented on the G5 shut-out when it came to bowl match-ups against P5 teams.

There is a "grown-up table" for P5 and a "kiddie table" for G5 when it comes to the bowls. One lucky "kiddie" each year gets to sit at the grown-up table. That's it. Oh, and all of the good food ($$$) goes to those at the grown-up table. Those at the kiddie table are lucky to get scraps.
12-07-2014 01:19 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #4
RE: College Football and Communism
I statred the thread to have a chance for all of us "I went to Rice so I must be samrt" posters to see and discuss the parallels with how Rice in particular and the G5 in general are treated by a self-appointed intellectual ruling elite who "knows what is best for us, better than we do ourselves and who orders us to do their version of what is fair whether we like it or not."

Change the issue from College Football to, say poverty or welfare or healthcare, and it is the exact same thing. The socialistic/marxist way ALWAYS screws the have-nots and the poor while at the same time telling them they should be "grateful for the help they are getting from the elite who know better."

That's what I'd like ya'll to consider and post about in this thread so we can see the similarities of the illogic or anything but a capitalistic system where competition and a fair and equal playing field decide the champions.
12-07-2014 01:27 PM
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Benchwarmer Owl Offline
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Post: #5
RE: College Football and Communism
This situation sounds much more like a failure of capitalism than a failure of socialism or communism (which are two different concepts). A socialist system would divide the riches among all of the conferences without regard for conference strength and television ratings. The current playoff system and the bowl system reward the rich as measured by strength on the field and television ratings.
12-07-2014 01:41 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
One would do well to remember this old saw:
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, the reverse is true."
12-07-2014 01:43 PM
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owl at the moon Offline
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Post: #7
College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 01:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  One would do well to remember this old saw:
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, the reverse is true."

Commutative property, FTW
12-07-2014 01:53 PM
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That Guy 2012 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: College Football and Communism
I think we all should have know Communism was doomed from the start; there were just so many red flags.
12-07-2014 02:17 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 01:41 PM)Benchwarmer Owl Wrote:  This situation sounds much more like a failure of capitalism than a failure of socialism or communism (which are two different concepts). A socialist system would divide the riches among all of the conferences without regard for conference strength and television ratings. The current playoff system and the bowl system reward the rich as measured by strength on the field and television ratings.

This thread should probably head over to the Quad ... but I agree with GoodOwl's observation and Benchwarmer's analysis. It looks to me like it's less like anything Leftist ... and more like a tyranny of the 1%-ers, who make the rules and influence their implementation for their very own benefit, not the benefit of the masses or general public.

(12-07-2014 01:27 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  I statred the thread to have a chance for all of us "I went to Rice so I must be samrt" posters ...

Glad to see this reference, as I helped with the silk screening of the original "I go to Rice ..." T-shirts @Baker College in the late 60s or 1970 (until the campus store shut us down). Even before spell-check, too!
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 02:40 PM by Almadenmike.)
12-07-2014 02:40 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: College Football and Communism
Honestly, I would label this more a fascist organization or an oligarchy.

The NFL is the a good example of a socialist system played out via sports. Revenue sharing, worst team gets the best pick, etc.
12-07-2014 03:02 PM
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Philoso-Owl Offline
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Post: #11
RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 01:41 PM)Benchwarmer Owl Wrote:  This situation sounds much more like a failure of capitalism than a failure of socialism or communism (which are two different concepts). A socialist system would divide the riches among all of the conferences without regard for conference strength and television ratings. The current playoff system and the bowl system reward the rich as measured by strength on the field and television ratings.

So much this.

I agree that the system of shutting out the G5 and pretty completely making them into a distinct second class of D1 football is terrible.

This has little to no relation to either communism or socialism, and is in fact much closer to a moneyed elite using developing market forces to push people further and further down, like classic robber baron capitalism (and contemporary capitalism).

Socialism, Communism, and Marxism are also grossly misunderstood. Nobody has better appreciated and articulated the value of a hard day's work than Karl Marx. See especially the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844.
12-07-2014 06:25 PM
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RiceBull Offline
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Post: #12
RE: College Football and Communism
They are only misunderstood in so much that in practice they are a much different beast than what they profess in theory. The problem is that they don't take into account the human condition. Capitalism works because selfishness is rewarded and as it turns out we need each other to further enhance our selfish desires. Your success can help my success. It is able to sustain itself this way without having to be propped up.
12-07-2014 06:42 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #13
RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 06:25 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 01:41 PM)Benchwarmer Owl Wrote:  This situation sounds much more like a failure of capitalism than a failure of socialism or communism (which are two different concepts). A socialist system would divide the riches among all of the conferences without regard for conference strength and television ratings. The current playoff system and the bowl system reward the rich as measured by strength on the field and television ratings.

So much this.

I agree that the system of shutting out the G5 and pretty completely making them into a distinct second class of D1 football is terrible.

This has little to no relation to either communism or socialism, and is in fact much closer to a moneyed elite using developing market forces to push people further and further down, like classic robber baron capitalism (and contemporary capitalism).

Socialism, Communism, and Marxism are also grossly misunderstood. Nobody has better appreciated and articulated the value of a hard day's work than Karl Marx. See especially the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844.

Thanks for the posts so far. If this was in the Quad, then almost no one would see it, even less would post much comment, so appreciate keeping it here, as the analogy is what's currently happening in football.

To the above comments: I can certainly understand how at first glance the learned knee-jerk reaction is to label the system as "capitalism out of control," but my point of perspective digs deeper than surface reactions.

A leftist asserts their goal is a level, fair playing field for all, and that they and they alone (the leftist intellectual elite) are the only ones best suited or even capable of deciding the rules and the relative merits and best "placements" of the participants. Keep in mind the CFP "Committee" (and how they got there--it wasn't merit, it was commie cronyism) when reading my thoughts:

As Hillary famously told Dennis Hastert on the original attempt at healthcare: "But we can't let the people control and make equal decisions on their own healthcare dollar spending--we know better how they should be spending their money," and what opportunities they should have.

Let's bring the CFP analogy back and see how that fits: "But we can't let all the teams control and make equal decisions on their own football destinies--we know better who the haves and have-nots should be and what opportunities they should have." Hence P5 and G5 come into being as labels. And bowl opportunities are segregated. "Separate but equal?"

To me a true capitalist would say: "The field is open to everyone who wants to play the games. No one is forced to do anything. The merits of each team/school will be decided on the field, not in the backrooms. The best team will end up being the champion, no matter who it happens to be or what they happen to 'look' like." Think "Hoosiers," if you have a hard time understanding. Indiana State HS championship open to all teams, no favoritism or handicaps. Yes, some teams are smaller, some are bigger; some richer/some poorer. etc...etc... Tell me, who did you root for in the Coliseum scene in "Gladiator"? Here's the ball. There's the field of play. You have the same clock as everyone else. The rest is up to you.

Owl 69/70 and Ham and RuOwls have posted numerous times about how Rice needs to utilize it's athlete's brains better with more creative styled scheming and play-making that we can use to neutralize the bigger school's advantage. That's the spirit of entrepreneurship in capitalism. A leftist argument as to what Rice should do would be: 'Rice should invest in lobbyists to have a handicap added to its scores before each game of "x" points to compensate for the fact that it is a small more academically focused school.' Or 'Rice should lobby for 5 downs per possession instead of four since it is at an inherent disadvantage to most of the big schools it plays.'

I know--look at how ridiculous that sounds. But replace a few words and you get: 'X group should have favored status for contracts since they are at a disadvantage.' It's the same thing. We wouldn't accept it as anything but ludicrous for a football game, but in society many insist on the very same idea. That's the part that amazes me and other capitalists.

Limiting competition is not a capitalistic concept. Despite what you may have been taught or believe, no true capitalist wants to limit competition. They want to compete against the best of everyone. Ask most any entrepreneur or small businessman. Like most successful "up-and-comer" type of football coaches, they treat games against the "big Boys as opportunities to win and make a name for themselves, not practice exercises to be endured. Limiting competition is actually a form of social elitism, or oligarchism. A true capitalist is not afraid of all-comers competition, on the football field or in life, because they do not feel they need to game the system to be the best.

A coward seeks to bend the rules and create special categories/ quotas and favored groups to game the system and alter the game in their favor, because they know they cannot win if all things were equal. That is the very nature of the leftist/socialist manifesto. The lie is that it is done to "help" the poor. Instead, it creates artificial rules and a "system of purported fairness" which is inherently unfair, creating inequality and resentment, along with creating an upper ruling class that is most often not truly deserving. And worst, a socialist system hurts the poor and have-nots worst of all, but lowering their expectations and belief in themselves. By telling them the "need" these favors and quotas to be able to compete. Instead of working and investing and learning how to be a better football team or player, they come to depend and rely on the system for their status. Their confidence and belief in themselves erodes, and their ability to persevere through difficult hardship to get better is vanquished. All in the name of helping them compete.

You run 100 yard dash. You pay the winner with a trophy and title of "fastest 100 yard dasher." But what about the poor guy who has no legs--it's not fair to him? What about the guy with asthma, he needs special drugs to help him be more equal. What about the guy who always got picked last for his teams in school--it's not fair to him because, well, because. What about women-they can't run as fast-that's just not fair.

So, we give them all special categories, different standards of how far they each have to run to win the 100-yard dash. Start some at the 50 yard line. Start some at the 30. Start some at the 10, etc... Oh, and the people who get to decide--to choose--are an intellectual elite who by and large know little about the actual experiential paradigm of the various classes they themselves decided to create or designate. But fear not, they've read lots of the "right" books and internet articles produced by these who overwhelmingly agree with their skewed point of view, science and actual facts be damned, they have been "approved" to be elite as they attended the right schools and universities, and they all had the right friends appoint them to the elite ruling board or Committee, and really, shouldn't you just "trust them?" That's how those in Communism/Marxism/socialism maintain their power.

How about just running the race, everyone gets the same shot, and the best man (or woman) wins, no quotas, no handicaps, no whining? But we can't have that, because it would be "WRONG." Or so we have been told by much of our education system. A coward fears pure competition. A Leader and a capitalist fears no contest on an equal field. Football or life.

The examples you try to cite of what you THINK capitalism is, are actually anything but capitalistic. They share more in common with leftist "picking and choosing winners" approach, whether in football or in other areas, than with true capitalism, which is always may the best person win, fear no competition.

I understand you may think this idea of capitalism is off, but then, remember who has been teaching most of you about capitalism. They probably were not capitalists themselves at the time, if they ever were. They likely sought out a "protected" status with concepts like "tenure" and "academic notoriety" to insulate themselves from the consequences of the market. A capitalist's tenure is a won contest. They are confident enough in their abilities that they don't need to wimp out.

Long time ago, a very wise old and successful salesman said: "The sale is considered made when the check clears the bank and doesn't bounce. You don't 'book' anything one second before- because it is not real until that moment. It is a phantom otherwise. Debt is for suckers, and people who fear partners or are insecure and impatient in their own abilities. The man not willing to risk losing what he has to invest is a coward, and seeks to ride free on the backs of others. The fight belongs to the man in the arena, willing to muddy himself, and accept the consequences of failure. Accrual is baloney--that's why there's so much wealth robbing in societies." I would tend to agree with his assessment.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 10:31 PM by GoodOwl.)
12-07-2014 07:11 PM
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Tiki Owl Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
Here we go again.
12-07-2014 07:19 PM
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Almadenmike Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 07:11 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  A true capitalist is not afraid of all-comers competition, on the football field or in life, because they do not feel they need to game the system to be the best.

That may be true in textbooks -- like "true Communists" are idealists in Soviet textbooks and propaganda. But if it were true in real life, there would be no need for any lobbying in DC or state capitols.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2014 09:53 PM by Almadenmike.)
12-07-2014 09:51 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 02:17 PM)That Guy 2012 Wrote:  I think we all should have know Communism was doomed from the start; there were just so many red flags.

I don't think that was apparent until they instituted instant replay... what, in about 1986 or so?
12-07-2014 11:08 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 01:53 PM)owl at the moon Wrote:  
(12-07-2014 01:43 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  One would do well to remember this old saw:
"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, the reverse is true."

Commutative property, FTW

I thought that was only an issue in divorce or inheritance. But, yes, I think George nailed it.
12-07-2014 11:11 PM
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I45owl Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
(12-07-2014 01:41 PM)Benchwarmer Owl Wrote:  This situation sounds much more like a failure of capitalism than a failure of socialism or communism (which are two different concepts).

I think that the problem with socialism is this view of capitalism.

The current situation may be best described as "crony capitalism", which in reality adheres to neither Liberal (i.e. Laissez Faire) nor socialistic principles ... it is really institutionalized corruption.

(12-07-2014 06:25 PM)Philoso-Owl Wrote:  Socialism, Communism, and Marxism are also grossly misunderstood. Nobody has better appreciated and articulated the value of a hard day's work than Karl Marx. See especially the Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844.

I think by the highlighted statement, one might mistakenly surmise that he had actually done some at one point or another during his life.
12-07-2014 11:19 PM
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Jonathan Sadow Offline
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RE: College Football and Communism
The big issue that athletics has to overcome in terms of economic systems is the meaning of competition. In a free-market economy, competition is a means to an end; through competition, the better businesses outdistance the lesser businesses, in the process the economy becomes more efficient, with more work done through less resources expended. In sports, however, competition is itself the end, and to have good and interesting competition, one must have stability. In a classical free-market economy, the better businesses become stronger and the lesser ones become weaker and may even become extinct. In a sports league, that would be chaotic. This was the case in the early days of professional sports, when teams might only last one season in a league (and sometimes not even that long). Teams soon realized that such chaos was harmful to their long-term survival. After all, if the Yankees win the pennant every year, then Yankee fans are happy, but no one else is, and these people soon quit caring about (and spending money on) the league. So to ensure their long-term survival, leagues became quasi-socialistic in that they can be thought of less as individual businesses and more as a group of businesses working toward a common goal. To do that, rules were instituted to level the field in terms of opportunities to improve one's team so that all could have the possibility of being competitive (whether one actually became competitive of course was up to a team's abilities in acquiring and coaching talent).

In these terms, for Division I FBS the CFP is a failure (and really, all of major-college sports is a failure to some degree). As Rice fans know well, the playing field isn't level. That in itself isn't bad (to say otherwise would necessarily imply that everyone has to be clones of each other, which is not the way the universe works), but what's bad is that there's no effective means of allowing one to change the level of one's playing field (I could go into this in more detail, but that's best saved for another thread). I45owl is right; the CFP (and the Power 5 conferences) are more of an example of crony capitalism inasmuch as they act as a barrier to entry to lesser programs by rewarding better programs while also acting as a gatekeeper. The end result is that the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer with little opportunity ever to get richer. That's poisonous to a society in the long run, and also poisonous to college athletics in the long run. Again, a detailed examination is best left for another thread, but the main issue is the CFP and P5 are applying a professional athletics model to non-professional teams, an action which ultimately is contrary to the integrity of the university as an institution.
12-10-2014 01:27 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #20
RE: College Football and Communism
now that the thread's been moved ya'll may continue.
12-10-2014 08:10 AM
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