(11-27-2014 10:24 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Kaplony,

Look up Felony take down procedures. Read them yourself. So many mistakes were made here. One officer should have remained in the car informing the suspect he was in imminent danger. If these officers are not charged with anything because of their training then we have to change their training. Somehow someway the police have lost sight of their primary duty. Protect and SERVE. I have posted two videos in this thread where black kids have been killed holding bob guns. They didn't even know they were in danger. It was shoot first ascertain facts later. This needs to change.

Here's the issue with that line of thinking. They are supposed to Protect and Serve EVERYONE not just some rambunctious kid playing Hooligan. The officers were working on information that there was a person at a public park near a youth center brandishing a weapon. I'm a little different I admit, but my first thought would be how I could Protect those people in the park. Someone mentioned taking a slow cruise around the scene first. Why? If you are going into a situation where someone may have a gun, time to scene would be critical. You wouldn't be 'Serving' or 'Protecting' anyone cruising the scene while a gunman is shooting people. Talk about horrible tragedies. 'Yes, Mr Smith, your wife was killed by a gunman in the park. We had officers there but they had not completed their sweep of the area to find the best way to approach the gunman'

So if you are going down that line of reasoning, realize there are more people to Protect and Serve than some Hooligan brandishing what may or may not be a gun

I'd still like to know how all these people would react if their child were sitting on the swings, and in that moment of hesitation they want from the police, the kid had shot their child.

I'll agree that police are far too aggressive in 2014... but IMO, they are aggressive because criminals are far more brazen and aggressive (and young) in 2014 than they were in 1984.

Does that account for EVERY situation? Of course not. Police are human and humans make mistakes and make bad decisions and SOME just have no business being cops... but part of the problem is NEEDING so many cops... especially cops responding to reports of minors with guns.

I am troubled by the video, but I'm also aware that I don't have all the facts. I don't think cops rolled up on a 12 year old looking to kill him... being trigger happy... HOPING to make him do something so they could shoot him, which is what is implied by some posters on here.

If they did wrong, get rid of them. No problem. If they did criminally wrong, then put them in jail or on death row...

but the determinant in whether or not they did something wrong is NOT the age of the victim or the outcome (his death).

Frankly, CUSA's video of the situation in San Diego makes me think that they initially DIDN'T think it was real... because only 2 cops rolled up and in what looks like street gear... and not what looks like a swat team.

Their training needs revamped.

(11-29-2014 12:35 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Their training needs revamped.

How? What are they being trained to do now that they need to be untrained on how to do? What are they not trained to do that they need to be trained to do? How will this training affect the General Populace they are trying to Protect and Serve?
Your earlier solutions were wanting in that regard

Shoot people in the hip. If someone has a knife from 12 feet away they can shoot to kill. They should have to show a threat. This kid and the ninja sword guy did neither.

You can't untrain racism

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(11-29-2014 01:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Shoot people in the hip. If someone has a knife from 12 feet away they can shoot to kill. They should have to show a threat. This kid and the ninja sword guy did neither.

Shoot People in the Hip
Most people shot by Police are moving targets. That makes it exponentially more difficult to hit a target, let alone a specific part of the target.
If you miss the hip and the shot goes wide, you are now putting other people in danger.
Even if it were possible, it would require a LOT more time on the firing range, which would increase the 'Militarization of Police' mantra.

Knife from 12' Away.
What's relevant about 12'? The person with the knife can't reach the LEO from that far away.
Or do you mean don't shoot until the attacker with the knife came within 12'? Why wait that long? That is less distance than a FT line. If you are running at even 1/2 speed you can cover 12' in 1 or 2 steps.

They Have To Show a Threat
Do you mean before or after a shooting? Clearly this boy from Cleveland posed no threat to anyone. However, that was not know until after he was shot and it became apparent the kid didn't have a 'real' gun. But at that time? Reaching into a waist band is Universally accepted as going for a gun. The person who called 912 obviouslt thought it was a threat.

Right now, unless it's changed, Police are taught to shoot for Center Mass. That seems like it is the best option to both stop an attacker and protect others in the area.

(11-29-2014 01:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You can't untrain racism

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What does that have to do LEO's?

LEO'S?

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(11-29-2014 02:36 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  LEO'S?

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law enforcment officers.

It's as simple as this! You better make damn well sure someone is trying to take your life if YOU are willing to take theirs. If you can't make that deal find another profession. You are police officer. Not a judge jury and executioner. Way way way too many trigger happy people wearing badges.

(11-29-2014 04:57 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It's as simple as this! You better make damn well sure someone is trying to take your life if YOU are willing to take theirs. If you can't make that deal find another profession. You are police officer. Not a judge jury and executioner. Way way way too many trigger happy people wearing badges.

Not so simple. I bet if you asked that cop if he felt certain someone was trying to take his life or someone else's hed answer Yes. If you hesitate, that you or someone else could be killed.

But you said they need to be re trained. Do you not believe they are currently be trained in threat analysis?

(11-29-2014 01:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Shoot people in the hip. If someone has a knife from 12 feet away they can shoot to kill. They should have to show a threat. This kid and the ninja sword guy did neither.

That isn't what you would ever teach ANYONE firing a gun. Ever. I'm dead serious. If they are firing at the hip, they may as well not fire... because someone shot in the hip can still fire THEIR gun or detonate their bomb or whatever other situation warrants shooting them AT ALL. The reason they shoot at the chest is because they are less likely to miss. Take a pistol to a firing range and shoot at 25 yards and see if you hit the paper, much less the hip. If you don't need to risk killing them, then you don't need to be firing.

(11-29-2014 01:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You can't untrain racism

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I suppose no more that you can apparently untrain race baiting.

(11-30-2014 01:32 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(11-29-2014 01:53 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Shoot people in the hip. If someone has a knife from 12 feet away they can shoot to kill. They should have to show a threat. This kid and the ninja sword guy did neither.

That isn't what you would ever teach ANYONE firing a gun. Ever. I'm dead serious. If they are firing at the hip, they may as well not fire... because someone shot in the hip can still fire THEIR gun or detonate their bomb or whatever other situation warrants shooting them AT ALL. The reason they shoot at the chest is because they are less likely to miss. Take a pistol to a firing range and shoot at 25 yards and see if you hit the paper, much less the hip. If you don't need to risk killing them, then you don't need to be firing.

(11-29-2014 01:55 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  You can't untrain racism

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I suppose no more that you can apparently untrain race baiting.

What? You think all this white killing black stuff is coincidence? Bless your heart.

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(11-30-2014 01:39 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  What? You think all this white killing black stuff is coincidence? Bless your heart.

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I think someone looking for an excuse to kill a 12 year old would have a pretty well documented history of racist attitudes, comments and actions. When you produce that, I'll go along with you... and you didn't have ONE here, but two.

Until then, you are being a race baiter.

Tell me how you'd explain the fact that blacks are shot by blacks far more often than blacks are by whites or whites are by whites as well. Unless blacks are racists against blacks, then it seems that for some debatable reason (I'd blame poverty and inner city living) blacks are simply more subject to being shot by ANYONE, including the police. In the 70's, the 'rate of death by legal intervention' was about 8 to 1. Now it's about 3 to 1... and has pretty well been since about 1985. Source http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014...-race-data

Blacks were also 55% of the homicide deaths... most often by other blacks. Do we just ignore that?

The bottom line is that racism might have lead to the current reality where you are far more likely to be shot if you are black. In fact, I'd say that was a fact... but also many of the supposed solutions have also contributed to it (inner city congregation of resources and assistance)... but that isn't what you're implying. You're implying that they are being shot because of current racist attitudes, especially by cops... and not only can't you prove that, but you are obscuring from the reality that NEEDS to be solved but won't be because people like you divert focus like this.

People who AREN'T racists would be discouraged from becoming cops, or going into ANY situation where there were 3 possible outcomes... that they could be dead... that they could be put in jail for a hate crime they didn't commit... or they could live with the reality of having shot someone. Why would a reasonable person EVER become a cop?

This isn't about black on black crime. Quit trying to deflect from the real issue. This is about white people killing black people.

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(11-30-2014 06:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  This isn't about black on black crime. Quit trying to deflect from the real issue. This is about white people killing black people.

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So you're suggesting that black people being killed isn't a problem. The problem is white people killing.

Got it.

(11-30-2014 07:21 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(11-30-2014 06:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  This isn't about black on black crime. Quit trying to deflect from the real issue. This is about white people killing black people.

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So you're suggesting that black people being killed isn't a problem. The problem is white people killing.

Got it.

Blacks killing blacks is a problem. The difference is that those people go to jail.

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(11-30-2014 06:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  This isn't about black on black crime. Quit trying to deflect from the real issue. This is about white people killing black people.

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So in your world, black people are prefect and the only reason white people kill black people is racism?!? There isn't a justifiable reason for a white person to use deadly force against a black person in your world? Surely you don't believe that.

(11-30-2014 08:19 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(11-30-2014 06:42 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  This isn't about black on black crime. Quit trying to deflect from the real issue. This is about white people killing black people.

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So in your world, black people are prefect and the only reason white people kill black people is racism?!? There isn't a justifiable reason for a white person to use deadly force against a black person in your world? Surely you don't believe that.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.

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