In the new spirit of the forum I thought that it would not be possible to have a serious discussion about the merits of our once great country.

There are several key areas that I think need to be discussed and debated more openly by most Americans. They are;

1)Liberty - are we really as free as we would like to think,
2)Our Role Abroad - are we a force for good around the world or do we cause a lot of problems,
3)Our Culture - are we actually setting a good example or is consumer culture a negative thing,
4)Ethnocentrism - have we not folded in on ourselves with the nonjudgmental movement where we now judge those we see judge,
5)Governance - how effective is our system and what does that mean for us, and 6)Capitalism - what does this mean to us: what does it mean to us: what form should it take: is it morally acceptable?

These and all of their connections to one another and impacts on ourselves and the world are serious stuff. I'd be interested to know, without the shouting down, claims of anti-semitism, and all that, what people really think of the United States, its place, and its impact.

Feel free to add anything you want to the list of things to talk about that truly question who we are, what we are, and who/what we want or ought to be.

I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

(10-01-2014 12:09 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  In the new spirit of the forum I thought that it would not be possible to have a serious discussion about the merits of our once great country.

Great thread.

Quote:There are several key areas that I think need to be discussed and debated more openly by most Americans. They are;

1)Liberty - are we really as free as we would like to think,

Our liberties have slowly eroded over time. Since 9/11 that erosion has picked up speed. This is due to "bipartisan" regulations. The Patriot Act needs to go. The NSA needs to get knocked down.

Quote:2)Our Role Abroad - are we a force for good around the world or do we cause a lot of problems,

We've become a force for our corporations more than the general good of the citizens and tax payers.

Quote:3)Our Culture - are we actually setting a good example or is consumer culture a negative thing,

That is capitalism at its finest, and what we were founded on. I have no issues here.

Quote:4)Ethnocentrism - have we not folded in on ourselves with the nonjudgmental movement where we now judge those we see judge,

Not sure what you are saying here. I think we are less ethnocentric than we used to be as a country, but there is still a large block of people holding out.

Quote:5)Governance - how effective is our system and what does that mean for us, and

With every passing day we restrict ourselves more and become more of a police state.

Quote:6)Capitalism - what does this mean to us: what does it mean to us: what form should it take: is it morally acceptable?

Obviously it means that as long as you aren't directly harming another person, you are free to make money and spend money as you deem. Conservation does not come from that viewpoint generally, however, and that could ultimately be the downfall. Whether from lack of water, pollution, or other areas.

Honestly, I feel that we've become a nation afraid of our own shadow. We're afraid of saying what we truly feel for fear it'll hurt someone's feelings.

We've put ourselves in too much debt helping other countries out when we should've been helping out the people here.

I'm not against immigration, however, we should limit our borders and only let those who are properly documented (passports) enter and leave per our own laws.

Congress was meant to be set up for the people and to be an honor to be elected, it was never meant to be a career. We need to clean house there, re-evaluate the salaries, and set term limits.

We need to move forward if we're going to look to other energy sources. Use technologies that are proven and not stifle any or give absurd amounts of money towards an idea that hasn't been tested yet.

(10-01-2014 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

I'd like to challenge this. How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

I'd like to challenge this. How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I've never ventured out of the country. I know I've heard a few foreigners I've either socialized with, went to school with, or worked with call us dumb Americans.

What I understood is they think we're too obsessed with sports, pop culture, and we don't exert ourselves like they do. Some countries you have to pick your career by time you're 12. Here we have folks into their 20s figuring it out. Most of us only speak one language, where overseas they learn their native tongue, English, and maybe one more.

(10-01-2014 12:09 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  In the new spirit of the forum I thought that it would not be possible to have a serious discussion about the merits of our once great country.

There are several key areas that I think need to be discussed and debated more openly by most Americans. They are;

1)Liberty - are we really as free as we would like to think, I think we're as free as we want to be
2)Our Role Abroad - are we a force for good around the world or do we cause a lot of problems, Why is it our responsibility to be a "force for good around the world?" We're not the worlds PD. The trillions spent on foreign wars, the billions spent in foreign aid, this should be used to enhance American lives...to make America a better place.
3)Our Culture - are we actually setting a good example or is consumer culture a negative thing,
4)Ethnocentrism - have we not folded in on ourselves with the nonjudgmental movement where we now judge those we see judge,
5)Governance - how effective is our system and what does that mean for us, and great, when it actually works (see obstructionism and govt shutdowns)
6)Capitalism - what does this mean to us: what does it mean to us: what form should it take: is it morally acceptable?

These and all of their connections to one another and impacts on ourselves and the world are serious stuff. I'd be interested to know, without the shouting down, claims of anti-semitism, and all that, what people really think of the United States, its place, and its impact.

Feel free to add anything you want to the list of things to talk about that truly question who we are, what we are, and who/what we want or ought to be.

(10-01-2014 12:22 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:09 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  In the new spirit of the forum I thought that it would not be possible to have a serious discussion about the merits of our once great country.

Great thread.

Quote:There are several key areas that I think need to be discussed and debated more openly by most Americans. They are;

1)Liberty - are we really as free as we would like to think,

Our liberties have slowly eroded over time. Since 9/11 that erosion has picked up speed. This is due to "bipartisan" regulations. The Patriot Act needs to go. The NSA needs to get knocked down.

Quote:2)Our Role Abroad - are we a force for good around the world or do we cause a lot of problems,

We've become a force for our corporations more than the general good of the citizens and tax payers.

Quote:3)Our Culture - are we actually setting a good example or is consumer culture a negative thing,

That is capitalism at its finest, and what we were founded on. I have no issues here.

Quote:4)Ethnocentrism - have we not folded in on ourselves with the nonjudgmental movement where we now judge those we see judge,

Not sure what you are saying here. I think we are less ethnocentric than we used to be as a country, but there is still a large block of people holding out.

Quote:5)Governance - how effective is our system and what does that mean for us, and

With every passing day we restrict ourselves more and become more of a police state.

Quote:6)Capitalism - what does this mean to us: what does it mean to us: what form should it take: is it morally acceptable?

Obviously it means that as long as you aren't directly harming another person, you are free to make money and spend money as you deem. Conservation does not come from that viewpoint generally, however, and that could ultimately be the downfall. Whether from lack of water, pollution, or other areas.

Good post

I think there is a lot to talk about in it and it's a great starting point.

1. Do you think there are areas where we are even more free than we were before? I certainly agree that there is a general perception of the erosion of our personal liberty though. I don't honestly know if we are truly more free or less free than we were 20 or 30+ years ago. Do you think there is a moral shift in the population that is driving this or is it coming down from on high from our leaders?

2. What do you think of the charge that the US is the world's worst offender when it comes to cultural imperialism and pernicious and invasive ideology? What impact do you think that has abroad, if any? Is it related to something at our core? Is it the natural evolution of our desire to be free, like above, or is a derailment and perversion of freedom?

3. What do you think of those that would rather not take part in American consumer culture, or who find it morally abhorrent? Do you think this ties in with the imperialistic nature, culturally or economically? Is how the US responds to that readily apparent in our foreign policy and our conflicts around the world? That leads to the question of, "how truthful are we" as a society?

4. This ties in with the two above. I'm asking if you think that cultural imperialism, telling other nations they must offer certain things we deem human rights, or adopt policies regarding particular groups etc, has become a serious problem that we, because we believe in American exceptionalism and our morale righteousness, don't see. Essentially, at what point are we doing the same things we condemn because we cannot conceive of the idea that somebody would hold different values? Are our values better than others? Is that ethnocentric or imperialistic in nature? Does it matter?

5. Agree. Should we be concerned that we are enslaving each other? How are we going about this? Is it our economic system? Is it political control? What is the root cause? Are we afraid? Do we just not understand the idea of freedom at its core? It turns back in on #1. What is it to be free? Is our system furthering that?

6. Is capitalism intrinsically tied into our concept of freedom and our government or does it mold them? How do we deal with issues of mass greed and cronyism? Has our government made that possible or is it the other way around? Can capitalism be altered in a way that brings it back to its core meaning or is it working as intended? Or, even more broadly, is it even capitalism and what does it even mean?

(10-01-2014 12:34 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

I'd like to challenge this. How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I've never ventured out of the country. I know I've heard a few foreigners I've either socialized with, went to school with, or worked with call us dumb Americans.

What I understood is they think we're too obsessed with sports, pop culture, and we don't exert ourselves like they do. Some countries you have to pick your career by time you're 12. Here we have folks into their 20s figuring it out. Most of us only speak one language, where overseas they learn their native tongue, English, and maybe one more.

Do you think we are?

Is ignorance of the world liberating? (BTW, I am most certainly not calling you ignorant; I'm saying that if you take them at their word is that something that says something about who we are as a group or is it just a mistake to be corrected?)

(10-01-2014 12:44 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:34 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

I'd like to challenge this. How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I've never ventured out of the country. I know I've heard a few foreigners I've either socialized with, went to school with, or worked with call us dumb Americans.

What I understood is they think we're too obsessed with sports, pop culture, and we don't exert ourselves like they do. Some countries you have to pick your career by time you're 12. Here we have folks into their 20s figuring it out. Most of us only speak one language, where overseas they learn their native tongue, English, and maybe one more.

Do you think we are?

Is ignorance of the world liberating? (BTW, I am most certainly not calling you ignorant; I'm saying that if you take them at their word is that something that says something about who we are as a group or is it just a mistake to be corrected?)

Some say ignorance is bliss.

I personally don't have ambitions of living outside the US, so the need to learn 1-2 more languages is not something I don't think I need. Now in Europe you have to because every country has their own language, you travel 8 hours and you're in awhole new world ya know.

Do I think we're dumb Americans? No. I do think we've become lazy. I see it happening with the generation behind me. I think of my grandparents who would tell me stories of getting up in the winter, still dark outside, and do chores. Then come in, get ready and go to school. My parents didn't have to do all that, but their life was certainly no luxury when compared to my childhood. The days of tending to outside stuff before school was gone, I went to school, came home, did homework, and then went outside and played if it wasn't rainy or too cold. Now this new generation is too absorbed with smart phones and tablets, and it's spilling forward, because my generation and my parent's generation are absorbed in them too.

Sometimes I think it'd be good if we hit a reset button.

(10-01-2014 12:49 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:44 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:34 PM)gdunn Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 12:18 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I posit that the only solution to the vast majority of of our internal problems, the general national malaise, and the man-child generation is a generalized improvement in the national economy.

I posit that the only solution to vast majority of our external problems, the general global malaise, and the threat of Islamic terrorism is the generalized improvement of the global economy.

The United States of America must lead on both fronts. There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

I'd like to challenge this. How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I've never ventured out of the country. I know I've heard a few foreigners I've either socialized with, went to school with, or worked with call us dumb Americans.

What I understood is they think we're too obsessed with sports, pop culture, and we don't exert ourselves like they do. Some countries you have to pick your career by time you're 12. Here we have folks into their 20s figuring it out. Most of us only speak one language, where overseas they learn their native tongue, English, and maybe one more.

Do you think we are?

Is ignorance of the world liberating? (BTW, I am most certainly not calling you ignorant; I'm saying that if you take them at their word is that something that says something about who we are as a group or is it just a mistake to be corrected?)

Some say ignorance is bliss.

I personally don't have ambitions of living outside the US, so the need to learn 1-2 more languages is not something I don't think I need. Now in Europe you have to because every country has their own language, you travel 8 hours and you're in awhole new world ya know.

Do I think we're dumb Americans? No. I do think we've become lazy. I see it happening with the generation behind me. I think of my grandparents who would tell me stories of getting up in the winter, still dark outside, and do chores. Then come in, get ready and go to school. My parents didn't have to do all that, but their life was certainly no luxury when compared to my childhood. The days of tending to outside stuff before school was gone, I went to school, came home, did homework, and then went outside and played if it wasn't rainy or too cold. Now this new generation is too absorbed with smart phones and tablets, and it's spilling forward, because my generation and my parent's generation are absorbed in them too.

Sometimes I think it'd be good if we hit a reset button.

Good post.

Generational decay seems to have just turned the corner, in a bad way.

I believe that we are morally bankrupt society. We have small groups imposing their individual agendas in order to promote their own selfish unnatural immoral perverted desires. This arrogant entitlement attitude is killing our country from with in.

I believe that we are the World Leader in Liberty and spreading Liberty. However, our efforts should begin to become more selective. Take Afghanistan and the Middle East, we are giving free aid, blood and sacrifice to a bunch of simple minded animals that do not have the intellectual capacity to understand "Freedom". Nor do they want it.

We are the worlds police department. That needs to stop, unless there is something or "some action" coming our way. We put others above our own and that is wrong.

We are a weak in mind, spirit and physically. I miss the days of hearing people say that "I was blessed with a strong back and weak mind". Because, really those people had common sense, perhaps not a wall full of diplomas but had money in the bank and did not expect anything from anyone. This counts not paying back your student loans!!

(10-01-2014 01:18 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  I believe that we are morally bankrupt society. We have small groups imposing their individual agendas in order to promote their own selfish unnatural immoral perverted desires. This arrogant entitlement attitude is killing our country from with in.

I believe that we are the World Leader in Liberty and spreading Liberty. However, our efforts should begin to become more selective. Take Afghanistan and the Middle East, we are giving free aid, blood and sacrifice to a bunch of simple minded animals that do not have the intellectual capacity to understand "Freedom". Nor do they want it.

We are the worlds police department. That needs to stop, unless there is something or "some action" coming our way. We put others above our own and that is wrong.

We are a weak in mind, spirit and physically. I miss the days of hearing people say that "I was blessed with a strong back and weak mind". Because, really those people had common sense, perhaps not a wall full of diplomas but had money in the bank and did not expect anything from anyone. This counts not paying back your student loans!!

I agree with your statement about policing the world. I do not think that we should be anywhere. My thoughts are we should keep a strong naval & air presence throughout to globe to keep our response time to threats high and also to protect global trade. Let each country provide defense for there own country. and get the hell out of the middle east.

Bravo chaps, a bit of all right.
Totally agree we are barmy to be involved in every argy-bargy and act as the world's plod.
Just bollocks.

You want a frank and honest discussion about the USA? Our education system should be better because vague claims of societal decline aren't useful in any meaningful way.

(10-01-2014 01:35 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  You want a frank and honest discussion about the USA? Our education system should be better because vague claims of societal decline aren't useful in any meaningful way.

I agree with this, however, how the hell do we improve our education system? We have thrown money at the issue, and that doesn't fix it. I think we need to start separating kids out into tracks, but that isn't PC these days.

Societal Decline,...you need evidence? Look around!!

(10-01-2014 01:38 PM)BleedsHuskieRed Wrote:  

(10-01-2014 01:35 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  You want a frank and honest discussion about the USA? Our education system should be better because vague claims of societal decline aren't useful in any meaningful way.

I agree with this, however, how the hell do we improve our education system? We have thrown money at the issue, and that doesn't fix it. I think we need to start separating kids out into tracks, but that isn't PC these days.

I certainly don't have those answers, but this could be a good start.

(10-01-2014 01:39 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Societal Decline,...you need evidence? Look around!!

Ok, let's look around.











What exactly are you referring to when you make that claim?

(10-01-2014 12:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  How likable do you think we are abroad?

Do you think there are issues with this? What is this an expression of in the open sense of this thread?

I'd argue that we are not likable. We are self interested to an extreme point and hypocritical to an even greater extent. We are certainly not above trading our 'values' for what we want in the moment, in the context of a international politics.

I think the context of what I wrote provides the back-up for my statement:

Quote:There is no other country big enough, smart enough, and just damn likable than the USA that can accomplish this feat.

Sure, everyone likes a Canada, but they do not have the economic might to facilitate a global economic recovery. A China is big enough to facilitate a global economic recovery, but their global reputation (human rights, communist, etc) is too strained for them to lead.

The USA however flawed still has the best of what it takes to make the difference.