So the U.N. inspectors find surface to Air missiles in a School and turn Them over to the Gaza police for safe Keeping. The Gaza police are Hamas.They use hotels, Hospitals and Schools to fight from as Hamas is too cowardly to face Israeli troops head on. Typical Terrorists. Only way They can get support is to get Civilians killed and anger The people blaming ( Insert whatever Army) to rise up and fight Them. Think it's time to find the Palestinians a new home. Where is Atlantis again?

(07-25-2014 02:28 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  Hamas kills children, therefore it's perfectly acceptable that Israel kills children?

No. That's a gross misstatement of what is factually correct here.

Hamas kills children indiscriminately, without regard to any military significance. Israel targets valid military objectives, and unfortunately but necessarily kills some children as unintended collateral damage.

Do you have any evidence that Israel has attacked any target without some reasonable belief that it was a valid military objective? Just to be clear, I'm not saying that they have the kind of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that is required to obtain a criminal conviction in a court of law. That's one problem here, a lot of those who criticize Israel are applying a criminal justice standard which is not appropriate in a military context.

I'm not saying Israel's perfect. Mistakes get made. That's the inherent nature of warfare. There are probably situations where with 20/20 hindsight we can look back and say that the risk to civilians in a certain area outweighed the military value of the target. But military commanders don't get to make those decisions with 20/20 hindsight. I'm asking if you have evidence of a situation that was improper based upon the information available at the time the decision was made. I'm not aware of any. If you are, I would appreciate your enlightening us.

Let me make one other thing. I'm not saying it's all the fault of Hamas or the Palestinians either. Particularly the non-Hamas Palestinians, who probably for the most part deserve little or no blame. They've been screwed repeatedly for 2000 years, and this is just one more in a long line of screwings. Yes, I do believe their side has more directly and more often violated the principles of international law. But they don't have any choice. They're on the short end of the stick militarily, by a long shot, and that means they're not going to fight by the rules. The Geneva Conventions are great rules for Wellington and Napoleon, or even WWI or WWII. But they were written by people who didn't contemplate terrorism and asymmetric warfare, and they really don't work for either side in an asymmetric confrontation.

I would assign most of the blame to those who think that some sort of two-state solution is possible within the current footprint of Israel, and who in pursuit of that absurd outcome have forced both sides into a situation that is untenable for either.

Why would they read that script to an informant? Why would an informant care about international law? come on boys. You're smarter than this. This was pr 101 after the world was crying out. Lordy sakes.

(07-25-2014 11:54 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Why would they read that script to an informant? Why would an informant care about international law? come on boys. You're smarter than this. This was pr 101 after the world was crying out. Lordy sakes.

Sorry, we aren't for the terrorists, so excuse us if we don't buy your b#llsh#t.

What??????????????

It's not bs. This was a pr release. "see we do it the right way"........ after toppling an 8 story apartment building.

It is what it is.

CYA time.

(07-25-2014 12:03 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What??????????????

It's not bs. This was a pr release. "see we do it the right way"........ after toppling an 8 story apartment building.

It is what it is.

CYA time.

Maybe Iran will drop a nuke on Israel and you can celebrate. I mean we know what would make you really happy. It is what it is.

(07-25-2014 02:24 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

(07-25-2014 01:18 AM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(07-24-2014 11:08 PM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  Last I saw, the civilian casualty count was:

Palestinian civilians killed by IDF: around 700
Israeli civilians killed by Hamas: 3.

If that's showing great restraint to you, I'd hate to see how many civilian deaths it would take to bother you. Or is that even possible, considering who it is being killed?

These aren't trustworthy sources like the IDF propaganda YouTube video you posted (because we know that couldn't have possibly been manipulated), but there are numerous reports of IDF forces firing knowingly on civilians, including the UN school that was targeted.

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-24/itv-n...k-in-gaza/

https://mobile.twitter.com/RichardEngel

https://mobile.twitter.com/danieljerivers

https://mobile.twitter.com/DimaEleiwa/st...92/photo/1

So what? You want more dead Jews to even things out? Is that it? Or do you want fewer dead Palistinians to stop this madness?

Which is it? More dead Jews, call Hamas' friends in, I guess. Iran perhaps, there are others though. Fewer dead Palistinians? Call off their Hamas brethren, kick them out of their homes, hospitals, schools, UN sanctioned buildings and whatever else.

Why is this so hard to understand? Harbor a terrorist, you ARE are a terrorist. Aid and comfort, you ARE a terrorist. Allow them in your Mosque/School/hospital... why would you even be confused when the bombs hit?

Pretty simple stuff, but clearly the hamas terrorists have NO desire for peace.None. Anyone want to argue that?

So you're tasking unarmed civilians with rounding up a bunch of terrorists with rockets? And if they can't, then they deserve to die?

Yea. If the Palestinian people want peace and quiet then they need to see to it that terrorist mobs like Hamas have no home. No comfort zone.

OR, they can rely on the Israelis to take care of the cancer instead. So which is preferred? Cause it's going to, and needs to, get done.

You apparently want it both ways, provide hamas a safe harbor, allow them to lob thousands of missiles into Israel and expect no response. Uhhh, no. The ONLY way this gets over with, if you don't want Israel involved, is for the Palestinians to do it themselves.

Otherwise they are dead one way or the other.

You are a loon....

ERC

(07-25-2014 11:54 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Why would they read that script to an informant? Why would an informant care about international law? come on boys. You're smarter than this. This was pr 101 after the world was crying out. Lordy sakes.

First, please don't try to act like you're smarter than me. I have tried to show a lot of patience to you, in spite of some pretty offensive things you've said over the past couple of weeks.

Second, I don't think the world was crying out over this hospital full of munitions being blown up. This is the IDF trying to demonstrate that Hamas is playing a dangerous game. The world has been crying out over a school being blown up, but it's quite possible - if not likely - that it is Hamas's weapons that blew it up.

The "informant" was the hospital director, according to the IDF.

Warning Call to Wafa Hospital Before IDF Targets Site - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9AHzUKYk8 Wrote:Published on Jul 23, 2014 Hamas has turned Wafa Hospital into a command center and a rocket-launching site. Hamas has fired at Israel and at IDF forces from the hospital. As a result, the IDF repeatedly conveyed warnings to the hospital staff and urged civilians to leave the area. Hamas continued firing from the hospital. In response, the IDF targeted specific sites and terrorists within the hospital grounds. Secondary explosions can be seen, confirming IDF intelligence about the site.

One. You know what I find offensive? Innocent families being slaughtered in their homes.

Two. Without question. Israel was being painted in a negative light in regards to the loss of innocent life. This is not a question. It was in newspapers around the world. This is not up for debate.

and one other thing.

Saying this:

You're smarter than this.

Is not saying:

First, please don't try to act like you're smarter than me.

(07-25-2014 12:49 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  One. You know what I find offensive? Innocent families being slaughtered in their homes.

Two. Without question. Israel was being painted in a negative light in regards to the loss of innocent life. This is not a question. It was in newspapers around the world. This is not up for debate.

So you don't find offensive the shooting of thousands of rockets into civilian areas? You don't find offensive Hamas using children as walking bombs with explosives strapped to them? You don't find offensive the fact that Hamas has turned down every offer of a cease fire? You don't find it offensive that Hamas's stated goal is the destruction of Israel? I am just getting warmed up by the way. So tell me how smart you are. I love that part.

ERC.


All the stuff you just said. How is bombing an 8 story apartment building filled with families with no discernible Hamas ties an answer? Think this through. Their actions only emboldened Hamas.

Now no one is wishing for an Iranian nuclear bomb n Tel Aviv as you so eloquently stated. I now answered your question. Now try to answer mine.

How is bombing an 8 story apartment building filled with families with no discernible Hamas ties an answer?

(07-25-2014 12:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  You are a loon....

ERC

So how do you propose to deny Hamas a safe harbor to lob missiles into civilian areas of Israel?

(07-25-2014 12:49 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  One. You know what I find offensive? Innocent families being slaughtered in their homes.

Two. Without question. Israel was being painted in a negative light in regards to the loss of innocent life. This is not a question. It was in newspapers around the world. This is not up for debate.

Show us one person around here that doesn't agree with this.

So which "side" is indiscriminately targeting civilians, which side is making efforts to limit civilian casualties? You seem to be mad, or whatever emotion it is (perhaps envious?), that Israel simply happens to be better at this.

Well, guess what? First, tough schit. Second, they HAVE to be. To survive. 6mm Jews in one little post stamp size Country, surrounded by 300++mm Muslims, many hell bent on driving then into the sea and swearing to exterminate them altogether.

Think clearly here Mach, I'm moderately certain you're smarter than this.

You must have missed it last time. Drones, but even then, you need to address the root problems.

Have you ever watched one of those Nightline Ted Koppel town hall meetings? . It's quite evident who the bully is. I looked for it on youtube to put on here but can't find one.


We need to bring those back. Our media does a terrible job here.

(07-25-2014 12:49 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Two. Without question. Israel was being painted in a negative light in regards to the loss of innocent life. This is not a question. It was in newspapers around the world. This is not up for debate.

Then logic dictates that you should be upset that Hamas is intentionally exposing civilians to this risk and attempting to maximize the loss of civilian life for political gain (and your responses are evidence that the loss of innocent life is paying political dividends for Hamas). The way that you are reacting (commenting that Jews should just build ovens to slaughter innocents) is just the icing on the cake for Hamas. Your words say that you are outraged by the loss of innocent life, but the fact that you react the way that you are reacting is what has encouraged Hamas to bring this situation about.

(07-25-2014 02:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Have you ever watched one of those Nightline Ted Koppel town hall meetings? . It's quite evident who the bully is. I looked for it on youtube to put on here but can't find one.
We need to bring those back. Our media does a terrible job here.

What is quite evident is that Israel has greater military power, not that Israel is a bully. So the Palestinians do what they have to do if they want to fight against a much stronger power, they don't play by the rules. So what is Israel supposed to do?

(07-25-2014 02:43 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Have you ever watched one of those Nightline Ted Koppel town hall meetings? . It's quite evident who the bully is. I looked for it on youtube to put on here but can't find one.


We need to bring those back. Our media does a terrible job here.

A bully? Really? A freaking bully? Is that what you have panties a-bunch over? Jesu Cristo, what, did you get stuffed in a locker somewhere along the way? A freaking bully?!? C'mooooon.

What you seem to be upset about is that the Israelis are simply better at this shcit. So what should they do? Dumb down their own capabilities and then what?
Even the "playing field" by trotting out their own crappy 50's era short range rockets and just start indiscriminately lobbing them back over the border each time as a response?

Would that be "fair"? Cause it would cause a HELL of a lot more damage and innocent casualties than what's currently happening.

6mm facing 300++ mm. Some bully.