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I defer to those who have played as to whether freshmen can come in and contribute.

We know there are exceptions to the rule as we see one or two each year.

But typically I suspect most freshmen are overwhelmed by what is being thrown at them and have that deer in the headlights look. Just the fact that everyone is as big and as physical as they are has to be a blow to their ego. There's probably a large difference in the body and muscle mass of a 240 lb freshmen DE and a 240 lb Jr. DE, Even though they weigh the same.

I honestly don't know how it is for the average freshmen but I'm sure guys like Kimbo and Major can share some stories.

I'm just wondering if this is your average group of freshmen and the upperclassmen are typical of the upperclassmen we've had in previous years. I'm guessing/hoping that there are more than the usual number of standout freshmen. At certain positions we seem almost devoid of upperclassmen let alone upperclassmen with experience, size, and talent.

Lastly (Kimbo and Major) , with 85 scholarship limit, players leaving for the NFL earlier (yes I know this isn't prevalent in the MAC), and HS strength and conditioning improving, is football trending towards putting more freshmen on the field.

I think we are having the same questions Dip in regards to just how much of a jump it is for a freshman. Obviously, there are always a handful that are ready for the next level. But for every Corey Davis or Jamie Wilson or even Tim Hiller, there are 10 others that just need a year to mature physically and figure it out mentally before they are truly ready to compete on that level.

That's where my concern comes with knowing that we can expect maybe 15 new and inexperienced kids on the field getting big time minutes. They might be the best choice we've got, but that might just be a testament to not having much else on the roster.

My opinion is that playing so much youth is going to lead to some situations where it looks like they are completely outmanned. But at the same time as we have been discussing, a year or 2 down the road the beating that they take and the experience they get as freshman might help them develop. I'm just not sure of have the patience to wait as long as this is going to take.

I personally think that any freshmen class from OSU, UM, or Nebraska would be the best team in the MAC by the end of the season.

If these freshmen are as good as advertised it still could be ugly early, but by game 6 it could be an impressive group.

IF, and I repeat IF......this is the best recruiting class in MAC history, we're going into uncharted territory. Parity is the norm in this league. This COULD be the anomaly.

(07-22-2014 09:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  I personally think that any freshmen class from OSU, UM, or Nebraska would be the best team in the MAC by the end of the season.

If these freshmen are as good as advertised it still could be ugly early, but by game 6 it could be an impressive group.

IF, and I repeat IF......this is the best recruiting class in MAC history, we're going into uncharted territory. Parity is the norm in this league. This COULD be the anomaly.

It was the best ranked recruiting class in MAC history, it doesn't mean it will actually end up producing the best players. Somebody still has to coach these kids up and whether Fleck and co can actually do that is a huge question mark.

Stop making sense 7, this is a one train of thought board only.

Only pro Peej talk allowed, accurate, spin, or not.

(07-23-2014 10:18 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Stop making sense 7, this is a one train of thought board only.

Only pro Peej talk allowed, accurate, spin, or not.

Clearly you and 7 missed the two large "IF's" in Dip's statement.

Spin =

I will also say that recently the successful QB's in the MAC were dual threat. I don't see that from Stewart. It seems like if you want to succeed in the MAC and make noise outside of the MAC, the QB needs to run.

I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

If we start 2-6, why start Stewart then? Seems like a wasted year. Let him lift weights, learn the system and compete with a clean slate in 2015.

Top MAC teams have upperclassman that have paid the price. That is how they compete with national powers who are much younger.

(07-23-2014 09:50 AM)7 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 09:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  I personally think that any freshmen class from OSU, UM, or Nebraska would be the best team in the MAC by the end of the season.

If these freshmen are as good as advertised it still could be ugly early, but by game 6 it could be an impressive group.

IF, and I repeat IF......this is the best recruiting class in MAC history, we're going into uncharted territory. Parity is the norm in this league. This COULD be the anomaly.

It was the best ranked recruiting class in MAC history, it doesn't mean it will actually end up producing the best players. Somebody still has to coach these kids up and whether Fleck and co can actually do that is a huge question mark.

Yes, occasionally, an unknown recruit rises to the top. If it were the norm then BAMA. should stop recruiting the most highly touted and search for hidden gems with few if any offers.

(07-23-2014 10:18 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Stop making sense 7, this is a one train of thought board only.

Only pro Peej talk allowed, accurate, spin, or not.

Thanks for your invaluable input.

(07-23-2014 10:55 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  I will also say that recently the successful QB's in the MAC were dual threat. I don't see that from Stewart. It seems like if you want to succeed in the MAC and make noise outside of the MAC, the QB needs to run.

I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

If we start 2-6, why start Stewart then? Seems like a wasted year. Let him lift weights, learn the system and compete with a clean slate in 2015.

Top MAC teams have upperclassman that have paid the price. That is how they compete with national powers who are much younger.

Yeah, why take a chance on a Kid who verbaled to a top ten program. We should probably cut him loose until Johnny Manzel is available.

(07-23-2014 11:08 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 10:18 AM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Stop making sense 7, this is a one train of thought board only.

Only pro Peej talk allowed, accurate, spin, or not.

Thanks for your invaluable input.

Yeah I should stick to posting phishing attempts to get EMU and CMU people to respond, those are stellar!

(07-23-2014 10:55 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

Nobody has mentioned Christian Hackenberg at Penn State...

(07-23-2014 11:11 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 10:55 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  I will also say that recently the successful QB's in the MAC were dual threat. I don't see that from Stewart. It seems like if you want to succeed in the MAC and make noise outside of the MAC, the QB needs to run.

I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

If we start 2-6, why start Stewart then? Seems like a wasted year. Let him lift weights, learn the system and compete with a clean slate in 2015.

Top MAC teams have upperclassman that have paid the price. That is how they compete with national powers who are much younger.

Yeah, why take a chance on a Kid who verbaled to a top ten program. We should probably cut him loose until Johnny Manzel is available.

Certainly he might turn out to be great. Which is why I think you have to be patient with him. Manzel redshirted if I remember correctly so you make the point for me.

(07-23-2014 11:53 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 11:11 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 10:55 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  I will also say that recently the successful QB's in the MAC were dual threat. I don't see that from Stewart. It seems like if you want to succeed in the MAC and make noise outside of the MAC, the QB needs to run.

I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

If we start 2-6, why start Stewart then? Seems like a wasted year. Let him lift weights, learn the system and compete with a clean slate in 2015.

Top MAC teams have upperclassman that have paid the price. That is how they compete with national powers who are much younger.

Yeah, why take a chance on a Kid who verbaled to a top ten program. We should probably cut him loose until Johnny Manzel is available.

Certainly he might turn out to be great. Which is why I think you have to be patient with him. Manzel redshirted if I remember correctly so you make the point for me.

Manzel was a 4 star QB playing for a top 20 program in the SEC. He redshirted 1 year and the next year beat the #1 team in America and won the Heismen. I'm just wondering if our 4 star QB could compete as a true freshmen in one of the worst conferences in America. He doesn't have win to the Heismen or beat the number one team in America. I'm just hoping he might be better than the 2 guys ahead of him on our 1-11 team, and perhaps make the MAC all freshmen team. So ya see, he doesn't have to be Johnny Manzel..........maybe just 10% of Manzel. Not exactly lofty goals in my opinion.

(07-23-2014 11:31 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 10:55 AM)ITalian83i Wrote:  I think it's absurd to think Stewart can come start from day 1. Time will tell, but redshirting is beneficial long term with almost every position.

Nobody has mentioned Christian Hackenberg at Penn State...

Yeah, but Penn State is a vastly superior program than Wisconsin.........oh wait

(07-23-2014 11:07 AM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 09:50 AM)7 Wrote:  

(07-22-2014 09:34 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  I personally think that any freshmen class from OSU, UM, or Nebraska would be the best team in the MAC by the end of the season.

If these freshmen are as good as advertised it still could be ugly early, but by game 6 it could be an impressive group.

IF, and I repeat IF......this is the best recruiting class in MAC history, we're going into uncharted territory. Parity is the norm in this league. This COULD be the anomaly.

It was the best ranked recruiting class in MAC history, it doesn't mean it will actually end up producing the best players. Somebody still has to coach these kids up and whether Fleck and co can actually do that is a huge question mark.

Yes, occasionally, an unknown recruit rises to the top. If it were the norm then BAMA. should stop recruiting the most highly touted and search for hidden gems with few if any offers.

Totally different situations. The guys that end up coming to the MAC are way more under covered and under scouted than the guys Bama and Florida State are getting. It's way more hit or miss at this level.

NIU's back to back championship senior classes were ranked the 12th and 7th classes in the MAC when they signed. Lynch and Harnish had exactly 1 FBS scholarship offer each.

Recruiting matters, but it's less about how it's ranked and more about finding guys who fit and develop in your system.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for WMU to pull in as much talent as they did, I'm just saying it's not a for sure thing you're going to roll the ball out there and these guys develop to their potential. Somebody has to teach them.

(07-23-2014 12:18 PM)7 Wrote:  NIU's back to back championship senior classes were ranked the 12th and 7th classes in the MAC when they signed. Lynch and Harnish had exactly 1 FBS scholarship offer each.

Recruiting matters, but it's less about how it's ranked and more about finding guys who fit and develop in your system.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for WMU to pull in as much talent as they did, I'm just saying it's not a for sure thing you're going to roll the ball out there and these guys develop to their potential. Somebody has to teach them.

I'm sorry, but I get so sick of hearing this from NIU fans these days. The program wasn't built on coaching alone. Yes, coaching was a big part of it, but that was just one part of a bigger equation. Joe Novak started building the foundation in the late 1990's and early 2000's, Jerry Kill and Dave Doeren sustained it by pulling in some very good recruiting classes between 2009-2012, and then Rod Carey inherited all of it. It will be interesting to see if the program begins to fall off now that some of that momentum has been lost with all of the recent coaching changes.

I agree with him, coaching is a huge part of the equation.

(07-23-2014 12:42 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(07-23-2014 12:18 PM)7 Wrote:  NIU's back to back championship senior classes were ranked the 12th and 7th classes in the MAC when they signed. Lynch and Harnish had exactly 1 FBS scholarship offer each.

Recruiting matters, but it's less about how it's ranked and more about finding guys who fit and develop in your system.

Don't get me wrong, it's great for WMU to pull in as much talent as they did, I'm just saying it's not a for sure thing you're going to roll the ball out there and these guys develop to their potential. Somebody has to teach them.

I'm sorry, but I get so sick of hearing this from NIU fans these days. The program wasn't built on coaching alone. Yes, coaching was a big part of it, but that was just one part of a bigger equation. Joe Novak started building the foundation in the late 1990's and early 2000's, Jerry Kill and Dave Doeren sustained it by pulling in some very good recruiting classes between 2009-2012, and then Rod Carey inherited all of it. It will be interesting to see if the program begins to fall off now that some of that momentum has been lost with all of the recent coaching changes.

It's college sports, all programs are built on coaching alone. Who recruits the players? The coaches. Recruit the players that fit your system, coach them up. Do you think Jordan Lynch would have been succesful playing in a pro style offense? Yeah...no.

We can all continue to debate as to whether or not Stewart will and/or should play this year.

I fall back to the school of thought that if the team is 2-6 is it really worth burning a red shirt year to put in a freshman QB? OR, is that in fact the perfect time to do it? Not sure that I really have the answer because I could make an argument for either line of thinking.

1. Get the kid experience. The season is basically lost as far as record is concerned, so why not get him some game speed experience?
2. Keep the red shirt. Let him mature physically and mentally in the system. And have him more prepared to be your 4 year starter.

I think both schools of thought are valid. The question is which one benefits the kid and the program more in the long run.