(07-12-2014 03:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Total surveillance, drones, self-guiding bullets, microwave and sound-based crowd control weapons, militarized police. We are heading for a great world.

I agree that the future is full of all sorts of uncertainties and concerns. It's my hope that regardless of where we all fall along the political spectrum, that we can agree that safeguarding the public's ability to exercise control over government is very important.

(07-12-2014 03:20 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  You're asking the wrong question. America, like the rest of the developed world, has and will continue to prosper under liberalism. The question for America is whether is will survive the onslaught of corporatism. I'm an optimist who thinks the continued rise of liberalism will finally put a proper check on the grotesque use of corporate power. The only question is how much damage will be done before liberalism finally wins out.

+1 +1 +1 Capitalism must evolve into something sustainable or we are all doomed.

(07-12-2014 03:20 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  You're asking the wrong question. America, like the rest of the developed world, has and will continue to prosper under liberalism. The question for America is whether is will survive the onslaught of corporatism. I'm an optimist who thinks the continued rise of liberalism will finally put a proper check on the grotesque use of corporate power. The only question is how much damage will be done before liberalism finally wins out.

That is absolutely false. Thanks for the comedy. Liberalism has destroyed every society that has ever embraced it. That is historically documented. Liberalism may break this country apart, but the entire nation will never embrace it.

You guys on the left, explain something to me.

Whenever anyone talks about the good things that our system has produced, you always want to describe it as a mix of capitalism and socialism. Then when it comes to the bad things, well suddenly it's all blamed on capitalism, not a mixed system.

Those can't both be right. So, which is it?

My own answer would be that it's a mixed system, that socialism creates the problems, and capitalism provides the solutions. And as for the criticism of corporatism, it can only exist in a society with a government that oversteps its bounds. Otherwise, there's nobody to crony with.

(07-12-2014 03:58 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 03:20 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  You're asking the wrong question. America, like the rest of the developed world, has and will continue to prosper under liberalism. The question for America is whether is will survive the onslaught of corporatism. I'm an optimist who thinks the continued rise of liberalism will finally put a proper check on the grotesque use of corporate power. The only question is how much damage will be done before liberalism finally wins out.

+1 +1 +1 Capitalism Liberalism, Communism, Socialism and Fascism must evolve into something sustainable or we are all doomed.

FIFY

(07-12-2014 03:20 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  You're asking the wrong question. America, like the rest of the developed world, has and will continue to prosper under liberalism. The question for America is whether is will survive the onslaught of corporatism. I'm an optimist who thinks the continued rise of liberalism will finally put a proper check on the grotesque use of corporate power. The only question is how much damage will be done before liberalism finally wins out.

Please give examples of these prosperous countries that you speak of.....I am waiting

(07-12-2014 04:09 PM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 03:20 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  You're asking the wrong question. America, like the rest of the developed world, has and will continue to prosper under liberalism. The question for America is whether is will survive the onslaught of corporatism. I'm an optimist who thinks the continued rise of liberalism will finally put a proper check on the grotesque use of corporate power. The only question is how much damage will be done before liberalism finally wins out.

This country will not and cannot survive this liberal ideology (that is being shoved down our throats). It will dissolve into other factions. But individually we may survive as a whole group NO WAY if this crap continues.



That is absolutely false. Thanks for the comedy. Liberalism has destroyed every society that has ever embraced it. That is historically documented. Liberalism may break this country apart, but the entire nation will never embrace it.

(07-12-2014 03:33 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 03:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Total surveillance, drones, self-guiding bullets, microwave and sound-based crowd control weapons, militarized police. We are heading for a great world.

I agree that the future is full of all sorts of uncertainties and concerns. It's my hope that regardless of where we all fall along the political spectrum, that we can agree that safeguarding the public's ability to exercise control over government is very important.

Not making fun, but what makes you think that the public wants to exercise control of the government in the way you mean?

They want to be taken care of and someone else to pay for it. They want tax refunds when they didn't pay taxes. They want disability checks when they are not disabled. They want infinite unemployment "insurance" when they haven't been looking for a job for years. They want grandma warehoused and diapered because they don't want to do it. They want free medical care in whatever quantity they require immediately. They want their food costs subsidized. They want their kids college paid for. If their home value goes down or they can't make their house payment they want the government to fix it. They want public housing. They want the government to force others to pay more for their labor than the supply and demand curve dictates. They want a subsidy for their particular business. They want regulation of their industry to make it harder for competition to enter their market. They want free birth control pills and free abortions. They want the government to back risky loans to them that they can't pay off and then make it go away when they can't pay off.

Everybody wants an all-powerful government for THEIR stuff and THEIR worldview. Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, Christians, Atheists, Unions, CEO's, bankers, brokers, blacks, whites, straights, gays. They ALL want control of this powerful machine in order to use it to get what they want and force others to like it. They are all fighting over the gun to shoot each other with.

There is almost nobody that is looking to control government to protect Liberty or minimize its power.

(07-12-2014 10:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  As I've posted before, the leader Obama most reminds me of is Juan Peron, and I see a future much like Argentina's.

Agreed.

And so (in response to OP) we could ask, "Has Argentina survived?" It still exists.

(07-12-2014 04:32 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 03:33 PM)UM2001GRAD Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 03:29 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Total surveillance, drones, self-guiding bullets, microwave and sound-based crowd control weapons, militarized police. We are heading for a great world.

I agree that the future is full of all sorts of uncertainties and concerns. It's my hope that regardless of where we all fall along the political spectrum, that we can agree that safeguarding the public's ability to exercise control over government is very important.

Not making fun, but what makes you think that the public wants to exercise control of the government in the way you mean?
They want to be taken care of and someone else to pay for it. They want tax refunds when they didn't pay taxes. They want disability checks when they are not disabled. They want infinite unemployment "insurance" when they haven't been looking for a job for years. They want grandma warehoused and diapered because they don't want to do it. They want free medical care in whatever quantity they require immediately. They want their food costs subsidized. They want their kids college paid for. If their home value goes down or they can't make their house payment they want the government to fix it. They want public housing. They want the government to force others to pay more for their labor than the supply and demand curve dictates. They want a subsidy for their particular business. They want regulation of their industry to make it harder for competition to enter their market. They want free birth control pills and free abortions. They want the government to back risky loans to them that they can't pay off and then make it go away when they can't pay off.
Everybody wants an all-powerful government for THEIR stuff and THEIR worldview. Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, Christians, Atheists, Unions, CEO's, bankers, brokers, blacks, whites, straights, gays. They ALL want control of this powerful machine in order to use it to get what they want and force others to like it. They are all fighting over the gun to shoot each other with.
There is almost nobody that is looking to control government to protect Liberty or minimize its power.

And as long as that's the case, we're going to see exactly what we've seen in the last 16 years--a "conservative" government attacking civil liberties, and a "liberal" government following by doubling down.

(07-12-2014 04:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as long as that's the case, we're going to see exactly what we've seen in the last 16 years--a "conservative" government attacking civil liberties, and a "liberal" government following by doubling down.

I don't see any way that dynamic changes until the money stops.

They seem to have gotten the idea that they have a magic money tree.

They can write-out an IOU. Then sell that IOU to the Fed for money that the Fed printed up out of thin air. Then the Fed burns the IOU. Voila...magic.

I've heard lots of liberal talking heads insist that this is a perpetual motion machine that can't fail.

It's not the fall that kills you....it's the sudden stop at the end.

(07-12-2014 04:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 04:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as long as that's the case, we're going to see exactly what we've seen in the last 16 years--a "conservative" government attacking civil liberties, and a "liberal" government following by doubling down.

I don't see any way that dynamic changes until the money stops.
They seem to have gotten the idea that they have a magic money tree.
They can write-out an IOU. Then sell that IOU to the Fed for money that the Fed printed up out of thin air. Then the Fed burns the IOU. Voila...magic.
I've heard lots of liberal talking heads insist that this is a perpetual motion machine that can't fail.
It's not the fall that kills you....it's the sudden stop at the end.

Agree.

I agree with both of you here. My question, seriously, is this whole scenario simply a result of capitalisms unprecedented success? Marx (Ithink), suggested capitalism held the seeds of its own destruction. I'm starting to think he may have been right.

we're going to look back at 2009-2010, when the dems had huge majorities in both houses of congress and their party in the white house, and we're going to thank our lucky stars the ReBamaLosi -- especially obama -- was/were so staggeringly inept.

It's an overall decline, not limited to liberals or conservatives.

(07-12-2014 05:20 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I agree with both of you here. My question, seriously, is this whole scenario simply a result of capitalisms unprecedented success? Marx (Ithink), suggested capitalism held the seeds of its own destruction. I'm starting to think he may have been right.

But this isn't capitalism.

That's the question I think I already posed once on this thread for those on the left.

When something good happens, you tout the fact that we are a mixed capitalist/socialist economy.
When something bad happens, it's because we have a capitalist economy.

Well, we have either one or the other. So which is it?

My own opinion is that we have a mixed economy and it's socialism that's screwing it up and capitalism that is coming to the rescue. And as far as the whole corporatist thing, that requires some degree of socialism. In a true capitalist society, like the one Milton Friedman describes in the passage I quoted on another thread, there are no crony bureaucrats to get involved with the crony capitalists. You don't crony with the invisible hand.

(07-12-2014 05:20 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I agree with both of you here. My question, seriously, is this whole scenario simply a result of capitalisms unprecedented success? Marx (Ithink), suggested capitalism held the seeds of its own destruction. I'm starting to think he may have been right.

WTFF?!? you obviously missed the collapse of the soviet union.

What will eventually happen: There will be a major conflict. The blue and red states will separate and form smaller countries. It probably will not happen in our lifetimes. It will happen in our children's lifetime. Liberalism is like cancer. It is hard to cure once it sets in.

Capitalism is the most effective and efficient mechanism for resource allocation. That is a fact, there is no real debate about it.

The issue is that it is not 100% efficient. The system doesn't account for everything. Like a company avoiding costs and shoving them onto everyone else in the form of pollution.

One side is fighting to use the system to take advantage of those market breakdowns and gain more profit. For example, it's a lot cheaper to produce chemicals and you make more profit if the EPA is not there to keep you from dumping your costs into someone else's backyard. Or they are fighting for the government to regulate them so they can prevent competitors from arising to challenge their dominant market positions.

The other side is using government to overturn the whole system and move to a centrally planned economy to implement some sort of utopian socialist vision of paradise... THAT HAS NEVER WORKED IN HISTORY AND ALWAYS LEADS TO DICTATORS AND DEATHS OF MILLIONS.

Almost nobody is trying to let capitalism do its job and make the least intrusive corrections where the market breaks down. It fits nobodies agenda to do that.

Nobody is steering, they are both just fighting for the wheel jerking the car all over the road.

(07-12-2014 04:54 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 04:52 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 04:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  And as long as that's the case, we're going to see exactly what we've seen in the last 16 years--a "conservative" government attacking civil liberties, and a "liberal" government following by doubling down.

I don't see any way that dynamic changes until the money stops.
They seem to have gotten the idea that they have a magic money tree.
They can write-out an IOU. Then sell that IOU to the Fed for money that the Fed printed up out of thin air. Then the Fed burns the IOU. Voila...magic.
I've heard lots of liberal talking heads insist that this is a perpetual motion machine that can't fail.
It's not the fall that kills you....it's the sudden stop at the end.

Agree.

So I guess we agree that people should stop paying taxes. As we have seen with immigration, 10 million people can subvert the system and cause it to crash and burn.