CNN) -- With its long lines and seemingly endless paperwork, a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles can rarely be classified as fun. But it could be worse.

Two West Virginia transgender women claim their recent DMV visits were especially harrowing as they attempted to update their names and change their driver's license photos.

In separate incidents, both recount officials telling them their appearance looked too feminine for a driver's license issued to a male and that they would have to dress down for their photos.

Now they've enlisted The Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund to get their stories heard.

"(A manager) told me it was a DMV policy that people listed as male could not wear makeup," said Kristen Skinner. "The manager referred to me as 'it' and told me to take off my makeup, wig and fake eyelashes."

Skinner, whose hair and eyelashes were her own and not fake, eventually took the license photo after removing all facial makeup.

The 45-year-old IT professional called the experience at the Charles Town office in Jefferson County on January 7 "humiliating."

"The way I was treated was unprofessional," Skinner said. "Isn't the point of a photo identification to identify how you look every day?"

Trudy Kitzmiller said she had a similar experience many months later in neighboring Berkeley County. According to her, after showing all the legal paperwork to change her name on her driver's license, DMV workers in Martinsburg demanded she remove all makeup, jewelry and long hair.

The 52-year-old says she was also called "it."

"It doesn't matter whether my license says M or F. I'm still a transgendered woman, and they shouldn't tell me how to dress or appear," Kitzmiller said.

Teenager in South Carolina confronts similar situation

"I don't know many transgender women in this state, but it (should have) never happened that way. I am a human being and should be treated as a human being."

Kitzmiller refused to change her physical appearance and left the DMV on May 10 without a new driver's license.

In an interview with CNN, Steve Dale, acting commissioner of West Virginia's Department of Motor Vehicles, renounced any remarks that made individuals feel uncomfortable.

"I do not condone or approve any conduct which embarrassed an applicant or would single an applicant out," he said, adding the department is investigating the women's claims of verbal humiliation.

However, Dale emphasized he believes proper protocol was followed.

Under West Virginia law, Dale said, a photo that deviates from gender listed on the license falls under an "attempt to conceal or alter your identity or appearance."

"It would be the same as if you wanted to take a driver's license picture with a scarf over your face or if you we were wearing some type of garb that conceals your identity," he said. "And the decision is a subjective one that is handed down by the customer service representative, and then is subject to appeal by the manager and then it could come all the way up to me, the commissioner."

Dale recommends each woman receive a court-ordered statement that indicates they have transitioned genders.

Then, and only then, can their photo appearance "match" their listed driver's license gender. Kitzmiller and Skinner are listed as men on their licences.

"Normally, if a customer comes in with the court order designating a gender change, it is handled discreetly at the local office and the information is changed," Dale said. "The customer leaves the office with what the circuit court judge has directed and the issue does not reach my desk."

However, according to both women and the Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund, a court-ordered gender change may not be that easy.

In most cases, the court requires medical action to issue the order, which some transgender people are uncomfortable with or simply cannot afford. Skinner said cost is an issue for her.

Michael Silverman, the executive director of the Transgender Fund, elaborated on the cost issue.

"To get your gender changed under the West Virginia license, one must perform a certain surgery. And for many people, this is not possible," he said. "And whether that's because of discriminatory insurance that does not recognize this or through other means should not matter."

Silverman disagreed with the DMV's characterization that makeup, long hair and even eyelashes can equate to attempting to conceal an identity.

"Trudy and Kristen have struggled to become who they are, and they are finally open and honest now in presenting the women they truly are," he said.

"This is how their friends, family, co-workers and community know them, and the DMV cannot tell them they have to hide their true identities as transgender women."

Dale told CNN that he believes many other states have similar policies and that the West Virginia DMV has no plans to change its protocol.

However, he stressed that if their internal review finds any customer service representative or manager treated the women with disrespect, his office would issue a swift apology.

"We want all our applicants to be treated with respect no matter their gender choices, race or creed."

Regardless of the outcome of the review, Kitzmiller says she is struggling to find steady work without a valid ID card.

She has worked as a heavy-machine operator.

"Employers will not hire me because my union card and everything else shows me as Trudy," she said. "My union brothers and sisters treated me great. I was so surprised to see how I was treated by government employees."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/07/living/tra...index.html

Mentally deranged people who can't understand why their fantasy world doesn't match with those who deal in reality.

It's sad.

Quote:"The way I was treated was unprofessional,"

A man getting dressed and made up like a woman for a government picture passing judgement on someone's professionalism.

WTF is a "transgendered woman?" Is that a woman or a man?

I'm glad it was humiliated. Now, try to get back to reality, dude.

WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

And 'trannies' is kind of like using the N word. If you're looking to be credible, you might wish to use the term transgender or transitioning.

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

I think you're looking too far into it Tom.

What's your stance if it's a man that wants to be a woman without the surgery?

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

DMV rules are clear and consistent on this issue, WV will not lose any suit over this. And the crux of the matter is in your own last sentence; the state will not issue a photo ID to someone who is made up enough to significantly alter their natural appearance. Are you really this stupid?

(07-11-2014 09:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

I think you're looking too far into it Tom.

What's your stance if it's a man that wants to be a woman without the surgery?

That's a different question entirely. But I think that someone's ID should match how they present. I don't think it makes any sense to make a bald man wear a wig, for example, in their ID because the pic isn't going to look like him. If the person wears a dress, makeup, and long hair normally in public, then the ID should reflect that.

Lets be clear, there's a lot of ignorance with regards to issues related to transgendered persons and how society should treat them. But I think there's also a lot of needless hate on the part of people too who want to make the lives of transgendered persons more difficult.

(07-11-2014 09:16 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

DMV rules are clear and consistent on this issue, WV will not lose any suit over this. And the crux of the matter is in your own last sentence; the state will not issue a photo ID to someone who is made up enough to significantly alter their natural appearance. Are you really this stupid?

The case does not involve the question of whether WV is following its policy. Its a challenge to the policy.

Lets see how the case progresses. My guess is that she will have her ID in short order with the pic that shows how she presents.

(07-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

I think you're looking too far into it Tom.

What's your stance if it's a man that wants to be a woman without the surgery?

That's a different question entirely. But I think that someone's ID should match how they present. I don't think it makes any sense to make a bald man wear a wig, for example, in their ID because the pic isn't going to look like him. If the person wears a dress, makeup, and long hair normally in public, then the ID should reflect that.

Lets be clear, there's a lot of ignorance with regards to issues related to transgendered persons and how society should treat them. But I think there's also a lot of needless hate on the part of people too who want to make the lives of transgendered persons more difficult.

Tom it's cut and dry. They're listed as men, they don't have documentation saying they're women, so therefore the WV DMV is telling them to be presented as men, not women.

It's like if you wear glasses, they want you to wear your glasses in the photo unless you have contacts.

Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

(07-11-2014 09:20 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

I think you're looking too far into it Tom.

What's your stance if it's a man that wants to be a woman without the surgery?

That's a different question entirely. But I think that someone's ID should match how they present. I don't think it makes any sense to make a bald man wear a wig, for example, in their ID because the pic isn't going to look like him. If the person wears a dress, makeup, and long hair normally in public, then the ID should reflect that.

Lets be clear, there's a lot of ignorance with regards to issues related to transgendered persons and how society should treat them. But I think there's also a lot of needless hate on the part of people too who want to make the lives of transgendered persons more difficult.

Tom it's cut and dry. They're listed as men, they don't have documentation saying they're women, so therefore the WV DMV is telling them to be presented as men, not women.

It's like if you wear glasses, they want you to wear your glasses in the photo unless you have contacts.

Lets see how the courts rule. I think she has a case. She's got her doctor and medical science on her side. And the state is punishing her, quite significantly, simply because she cannot afford surgery or even complete the medical requirements to transition.

I think the general rule should be that how you look in daily life is how the DL photo should present you.

(07-11-2014 09:25 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:20 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:18 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:14 AM)gdunn Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:11 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  WV could lose that lawsuit. Medical professionals require that persons seeking transition present the gender they wish to be reassigned to for a period of several years.

Does WV have a voter ID requirement? If that's the case, then WV is seeking to ban transgendered persons from voting during their transition period.

It makes zero sense to have a person who presents as one gender being forced to have an ID showing someone that doesn't look like them.

I think you're looking too far into it Tom.

What's your stance if it's a man that wants to be a woman without the surgery?

That's a different question entirely. But I think that someone's ID should match how they present. I don't think it makes any sense to make a bald man wear a wig, for example, in their ID because the pic isn't going to look like him. If the person wears a dress, makeup, and long hair normally in public, then the ID should reflect that.

Lets be clear, there's a lot of ignorance with regards to issues related to transgendered persons and how society should treat them. But I think there's also a lot of needless hate on the part of people too who want to make the lives of transgendered persons more difficult.

Tom it's cut and dry. They're listed as men, they don't have documentation saying they're women, so therefore the WV DMV is telling them to be presented as men, not women.

It's like if you wear glasses, they want you to wear your glasses in the photo unless you have contacts.

Lets see how the courts rule. I think she has a case. She's got her doctor and medical science on her side. And the state is punishing her, quite significantly, simply because she cannot afford surgery or even complete the medical requirements to transition.

She is not a she. She's a he. If she has nuts under her skirt, it's a he. If she cannot afford the surgery to become a she, she is a he as nature intended. Funny how she doesn't have surgery to remove the organs that make her a man but can get a lawyer.

(07-11-2014 08:11 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  In an interview with CNN, Steve Dale, acting commissioner of West Virginia's Department of Motor Vehicles, renounced any remarks that made individuals feel uncomfortable.

"I do not condone or approve any conduct which embarrassed an applicant or would single an applicant out," he said, adding the department is investigating the women's claims of verbal humiliation.

However, Dale emphasized he believes proper protocol was followed.

Under West Virginia law, Dale said, a photo that deviates from gender listed on the license falls under an "attempt to conceal or alter your identity or appearance."

"It would be the same as if you wanted to take a driver's license picture with a scarf over your face or if you we were wearing some type of garb that conceals your identity," he said. "And the decision is a subjective one that is handed down by the customer service representative, and then is subject to appeal by the manager and then it could come all the way up to me, the commissioner."

Dale recommends each woman receive a court-ordered statement that indicates they have transitioned genders.

I was half expecting to read this and be able to laugh it off as the WV DMV being bigoted. How wrong I was, this response seems entirely reasonable.

Going to the DMV is all about identity, it's like going for a medical when you're fat and you smoke, you know that it's gonna be uncomfortable and get a hard time for it. Any normal person would know that despite being a woman on the inside (let's just go with this) they are not just going to have it easy at a government office that is required to do check upon check for legal reasons. Expecting the officials to just roll over because you're different is very selfish of them. The DMV should make exceptions to the rules because the trans people don't like who they are?

(07-11-2014 09:24 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

Your response was not rooted in medicine, but in emotion.

My first response was to just add you to the list of Ignored people that I feel are incapable of contributing to any discussion.

But I'm feeling nice today, so I'll just ask you the following. So you used the words freaks, deranged, and deviant. Do you have any medical backup for those classifications? Certainly a graduate of a school too good to affiliate with the Sun Belt would be able to explain that

And why do you care if someone wishes to present as a gender not matching their genetalia? How does it impact you? Transgendered persons aren't out to convert or rape kids. They simply believe that they are born with the wrong private parts. Medical science is clear that transgendered persons are not freaks or deranged and that transitioning and presenting as the gender deeply held is appropriate.

Do you really want to have a person presenting as a woman using the mens restroom? I think that would raise more questions from your kids than the opposite.

The lawsuit will be interesting. It raises interesting questions. My guess is that WV will quietly settle with the lady and give her the ID.

Lets be clear, they are preventing her from working, voting, etc., unless she violates her doctors orders. And the end result of the case is that the woman must either have an ID that doesn't look like her or no ID at all.

(07-11-2014 09:38 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:24 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

Your response was not rooted in medicine, but in emotion.

My first response was to just add you to the list of Ignored people that I feel are incapable of contributing to any discussion.

But I'm feeling nice today, so I'll just ask you the following. So you used the words freaks, deranged, and deviant. Do you have any medical backup for those classifications?

And why do you care if someone wishes to present as a gender not matching their genetalia? How does it impact you? Transgendered persons aren't out to convert or rape kids. They simply believe that they are born with the wrong private parts. Medical science is clear that transgendered persons are not freaks or deranged and that transitioning and presenting as the gender deeply held is appropriate.

The lawsuit will be interesting. It raises interesting questions. My guess is that WV will quietly settle with the lady and give her the ID.

Lets be clear, they are preventing her from working, voting, etc., unless she violates her doctors orders. And the end result of the case is that the woman must either have an ID that doesn't look like her or no ID at all.

Wanna bet?

And bullshite, he is the only one preventing her from doing any of the above.

(07-11-2014 09:29 AM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 08:11 AM)smn1256 Wrote:  In an interview with CNN, Steve Dale, acting commissioner of West Virginia's Department of Motor Vehicles, renounced any remarks that made individuals feel uncomfortable.

"I do not condone or approve any conduct which embarrassed an applicant or would single an applicant out," he said, adding the department is investigating the women's claims of verbal humiliation.

However, Dale emphasized he believes proper protocol was followed.

Under West Virginia law, Dale said, a photo that deviates from gender listed on the license falls under an "attempt to conceal or alter your identity or appearance."

"It would be the same as if you wanted to take a driver's license picture with a scarf over your face or if you we were wearing some type of garb that conceals your identity," he said. "And the decision is a subjective one that is handed down by the customer service representative, and then is subject to appeal by the manager and then it could come all the way up to me, the commissioner."

Dale recommends each woman receive a court-ordered statement that indicates they have transitioned genders.

I was half expecting to read this and be able to laugh it off as the WV DMV being bigoted. How wrong I was, this response seems entirely reasonable.

Going to the DMV is all about identity, it's like going for a medical when you're fat and you smoke, you know that it's gonna be uncomfortable and get a hard time for it. Any normal person would know that despite being a woman on the inside (let's just go with this) they are not just going to have it easy at a government office that is required to do check upon check for legal reasons. Expecting the officials to just roll over because you're different is very selfish of them. The DMV should make exceptions to the rules because the trans people don't like who they are?

The issue is that gender is more than a ***** or a ******.

But if the DMV is making it hard on someone, simply because they are transgendered, then that is probably a good reason why the lady has a case. Its not the role of the government to make judgements.

(07-11-2014 09:40 AM)TigerBlue4Ever Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:38 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:24 AM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Tom...trannies, yes I used that word, are a deviant subculture and are mentally deranged and are unnatural freaks. WV will not lose this law suit and are keeping anyone from voting.

Your response was not rooted in medicine, but in emotion.

My first response was to just add you to the list of Ignored people that I feel are incapable of contributing to any discussion.

But I'm feeling nice today, so I'll just ask you the following. So you used the words freaks, deranged, and deviant. Do you have any medical backup for those classifications?

And why do you care if someone wishes to present as a gender not matching their genetalia? How does it impact you? Transgendered persons aren't out to convert or rape kids. They simply believe that they are born with the wrong private parts. Medical science is clear that transgendered persons are not freaks or deranged and that transitioning and presenting as the gender deeply held is appropriate.

The lawsuit will be interesting. It raises interesting questions. My guess is that WV will quietly settle with the lady and give her the ID.

Lets be clear, they are preventing her from working, voting, etc., unless she violates her doctors orders. And the end result of the case is that the woman must either have an ID that doesn't look like her or no ID at all.

Wanna bet?

And bullshite, he is the only one preventing her from doing any of the above.

Yes, He (Mr. Dale) is preventing her from doing any of the above.

After reading the thread title, I thought I was gonna open it up to read they were forced to take off their make up and OKIE and S.C. Duke were exposed!!