(07-09-2014 01:58 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:55 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:53 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:51 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:48 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  As an example, Chicago's murder rate has been in a downward trend for a long time - decades, really. Meanwhile, the state just recently (late last year) allowed concealed carry. Obviously there's something else going on that made it drop. For Chicago the rate is still high compared to other big cities, I believe, due mostly to the gang violence.

I've seen the conclusion drawn before - variable X is increasing over time, and halfway through the trend, event Y occurs. Then people claim that "X went up after Y occurred" and conclude that Y caused X.

Some of that drop might be because Chicago has lost well over 200,000 residents over the last 10 years. less targets, less perps. Sometimes they find their way to first older suburban rings.

Well, the murders dropped, but the murder rate also dropped, which would already take into account the number of people in the city. This assumes the numbers are accurate of course.

Say that again...

I see what you are saying NIU. Mandatory sentencing keeping people locked up maybe?
Really don't know.

Yea I don't know either. I'm not sure how the crime rate is doing in the rest of the state either. I suppose it might be said that it was easy to lower the crime rate in Chicago because it was so bad before - worse than LA and NYC. I wonder if the drop in population really did affect the crime rate - fewer people so close to together. Who knows.

(07-09-2014 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:33 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Coorelation is not causation.

So what's your theory? OOPS I forgot your head just exploded.

No theory. I'm just saying that one doesn't necessarily cause the other.

I could see how it would stop some murders but concealed weapons don't really deter crime because they are in fact concealed.

If we really want to deter crime, perhaps they should let those who want to care weapons on their hip where everyone can see them. That would deter people in my opinion.

Open Carry...sign me up. But most "mass shootings" occur in gun free zones. Correlation or Causation? .......

(07-09-2014 02:08 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:01 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  So if carry concealed lowers the murder rate, why are murderes among gang members so high? Shouldn't it be lower since everyone pretty much carries concealed?

That's due to the way they calculate stuff.

If you carry a firearm illegally and kill somebody it counts as a murder.
If you have a concealed carry permit and kill somebody defending yourself it isn't a murder.

Two people are still dead but not every dead person killed by a gun is 'murdered.'

If you are defending yourself. We all know where that leads us. Why not just give everyone a concealed permit, then the murder rate would REALLY drop and the NRA nuts would really have something to crow about!!

Oduh...we really already have that,.....it was called the Second Amendment !!

Fact, most shootings occur at very close range, where target practice doesn't count for much. Most of it is up close and personal. Again, there is a huge difference between target practice and firing at a human. Most shootings occur when one or both partys are intoxicated, drive bys not withstanding. Since the vast majority of shootings occur in ghettos and are black on black or gang related, how does John Doe in suburbia having a permit to carry a weapon he'll never be forced to use effect murder rates? It might give him a false sense of security, but he was never really in all that much danger to begin with.

(07-09-2014 03:24 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:51 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:33 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Coorelation is not causation.

So what's your theory? OOPS I forgot your head just exploded.

No theory. I'm just saying that one doesn't necessarily cause the other.

I could see how it would stop some murders but concealed weapons don't really deter crime because they are in fact concealed.

If we really want to deter crime, perhaps they should let those who want to care weapons on their hip where everyone can see them. That would deter people in my opinion.

Open Carry...sign me up. But most "mass shootings" occur in gun free zones. Correlation or Causation? .......

Could be either. Generally the gun free zones are that way because people congregate there - schools, theatres, malls, etc., making mass shootings easier and more efficient. Realistically, somebody could walk into a church or similar place and gun down a whole bunch of people before anyone could react, whether or not they were armed.

Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:02 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I don't get how concealed carry would lower the murder rate. Don't gang members all carry concealed? They seem to be shooting other up all the time.

a law abiding citizen is less likely to get jacked, robbed, beaten if perps think they are carrying. Same deal for someone breaking in a home or a home invasion. Perps want easy safe targets. They don't want to get shot.

How are they going to know if the weapon is concealed?

You really are dense. They don't have to know, just know there's a greater possibility.

Yep.

Same reason all the mass shootings are in the liberal utopias that are "gun-free", err.. victim disarmament zones.

(07-09-2014 01:30 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Correlation is not causation.

Don't go stealing Owl's favorite line. I'm sure he is just about to show up in this thread to explain the whole correlation/causation thing.

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

No, an armed society is a very, very frightened society. Never knowing who might be having a bad hair day and decide they don't like your looks and because they won't tell you in advance what's about to happen, you are now lying in a pool of your own blood, weapon still holstered with a cap in your ass. But man, you sure felt safe, right up to the minute you realized you'd been unexpectedly, out of nowhere shot.

(07-09-2014 03:53 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:05 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 02:02 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 01:57 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I don't get how concealed carry would lower the murder rate. Don't gang members all carry concealed? They seem to be shooting other up all the time.

a law abiding citizen is less likely to get jacked, robbed, beaten if perps think they are carrying. Same deal for someone breaking in a home or a home invasion. Perps want easy safe targets. They don't want to get shot.

How are they going to know if the weapon is concealed?

You really are dense. They don't have to know, just know there's a greater possibility.

Yep.

Same reason all the mass shootings are in the liberal utopias that are "gun-free"/victim disarmament zones.

Owl and JMUPUNK will tell you these shootings are statistically insignificant. Of course, not to the statistics themselves.

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

Deterrence assumes the would be attacker is emotionally stable and thinking logically. Can't assume either one.
While it's a lousy comparison I know, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent as well. How well is that working out?

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

Um, this country is awash in guns. And it's hardly a polite society.

(07-09-2014 03:55 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

No, an armed society is a very, very frightened society. Never knowing who might be having a bad hair day and decide they don't like your looks and because they won't tell you in advance what's about to happen, you are now lying in a pool of your own blood, weapon still holstered with a cap in your ass. But man, you sure felt safe, right up to the minute you realized you'd been unexpectedly, out of nowhere shot.

That's just foolish. An armed society is a polite society. People don't commit murder from having a bad hair day. Point me to one case where that was the primary motivation. You got more hyperbole than BHO on an apology tour.

(07-09-2014 04:21 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Commietom - CSNBBS Secretary Of 'Splaining Stuff

(07-09-2014 04:02 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

Deterrence assumes the would be attacker is emotionally stable and thinking logically. Can't assume either one.
While it's a lousy comparison I know, the death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent as well. How well is that working out?

Well, there's one bastard that'll never kill again.

(07-09-2014 04:08 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 03:55 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(07-09-2014 03:49 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Deterrence has to at some point enter into the vocabulary of liberals. An armed society is a polite society.

No, an armed society is a very, very frightened society. Never knowing who might be having a bad hair day and decide they don't like your looks and because they won't tell you in advance what's about to happen, you are now lying in a pool of your own blood, weapon still holstered with a cap in your ass. But man, you sure felt safe, right up to the minute you realized you'd been unexpectedly, out of nowhere shot.

That's just foolish. An armed society is a polite society. People don't commit murder from having a bad hair day. Point me to one case where that was the primary motivation. You got more hyperbole than BHO on an apology tour.

Well if it's a gang, it doesn't require much. Sometimes you only have to be in the wrong person's territory.

(07-09-2014 04:24 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

Par for a commietom explanation.


Commietom - CSNBBS Secretary Of 'Splaining Stuff

Sum, you are putting me on, right?

(07-09-2014 04:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Sum, you are putting me on, right?

Well, he is after all SuckOnAllRears – CSNBBS Fox News Shill.