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California Supreme Court gets one right.
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #61
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 04:54 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 04:46 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I'm not interested in going down the rabbit hole.

Ill point you back to the discussion regarding strict liability.

Ok fine.

As I said before...

QUoting the article

Under California law, Target’s common law duty of care to its customers does not include a duty to acquire and make available an AED for use in a medical emergency...

Since they are talking about the common law duty of care, what makes you think they didn't apply strict liability?

Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.
06-24-2014 04:58 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.

Yet you're not willing to discuss whether or not having defibrillators in these stores actually furthers the safety of the people there...

Look, strict scrutiny requires a compelling government interest... It must also be narrowly tailored... and it must be the least restrictive means...

All of these require discussions of things you won't discuss.

BTW, the burden of proof falls on the state in cases requiring strict scrutiny. You seem to want to put the burden on the business.


Respond if you'd like... and I appreciate the civil tone even in disagreement... It doesn't seem that we define things the same way so there is no point in continuing.
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2014 05:32 PM by Hambone10.)
06-24-2014 05:30 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #63
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
We aren't talking strict scrutiny. That's a Constituional law doctrine.

We are talking strict liability, a tort law doctine.

I think we've discovered our problem, you aren't following the terminology or concepts at all.
(This post was last modified: 06-24-2014 05:32 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
06-24-2014 05:31 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #64
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.

If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?
06-24-2014 05:32 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #65
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:32 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.

If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?

No
06-24-2014 05:33 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #66
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:32 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.
If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?
No

Then I ask, once again, what is Target strictly liable for? It can't be for any more-than-foreseeable harms, because if that were the case Target would still be strictly liable in this example. If it is any more-than-foreseeable harms they haven't taken the appropriate steps to mitigate, how is that any difference than negligence?
06-24-2014 05:41 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #67
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:32 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.
If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?
No

Then I ask, once again, what is Target strictly liable for? It can't be for any more-than-foreseeable harms, because if that were the case Target would still be strictly liable in this example. If it is any more-than-foreseeable harms they haven't taken the appropriate steps to mitigate, how is that any difference than negligence?

They are strictly liable for the omission. If steps were taken then well do a negligence analysis. The point is that there is still a heightened duty.
06-24-2014 05:48 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #68
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:32 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 04:58 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Why are they talking about a standard of care? Because they aren't talking strict scrutiny. Not doing so is a missed opportunity to further the safety of people in these stores, where millions of American are this very second.
If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?
No
Then I ask, once again, what is Target strictly liable for? It can't be for any more-than-foreseeable harms, because if that were the case Target would still be strictly liable in this example. If it is any more-than-foreseeable harms they haven't taken the appropriate steps to mitigate, how is that any difference than negligence?
They are strictly liable for the omission. If steps were taken then well do a negligence analysis. The point is that there is still a heightened duty.

The omission of what? What steps have to be taken before there is a negligence analysis?
06-24-2014 05:55 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #69
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:55 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:32 PM)jh Wrote:  If a customer has a heart attack in Target, and a qualified staffer properly uses an AED but can't keep the customer from dying, is Target still strictly liable for the death?
No
Then I ask, once again, what is Target strictly liable for? It can't be for any more-than-foreseeable harms, because if that were the case Target would still be strictly liable in this example. If it is any more-than-foreseeable harms they haven't taken the appropriate steps to mitigate, how is that any difference than negligence?
They are strictly liable for the omission. If steps were taken then well do a negligence analysis. The point is that there is still a heightened duty.

The omission of what? What steps have to be taken before there is a negligence analysis?

Anything related to a more than foreseeable occurance. It's a bare bones requirment. A bare minimum.

It is an adaptation of a common defense to strict liability.
06-24-2014 05:59 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #70
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:59 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:55 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:48 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:41 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:33 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  No
Then I ask, once again, what is Target strictly liable for? It can't be for any more-than-foreseeable harms, because if that were the case Target would still be strictly liable in this example. If it is any more-than-foreseeable harms they haven't taken the appropriate steps to mitigate, how is that any difference than negligence?
They are strictly liable for the omission. If steps were taken then well do a negligence analysis. The point is that there is still a heightened duty.
The omission of what? What steps have to be taken before there is a negligence analysis?
Anything related to a more than foreseeable occurance. It's a bare bones requirment. A bare minimum.
It is an adaptation of a common defense to strict liability.

Please stop obfuscating and answer the question. Under your view, what steps does a big box store have to take to avoid being strictly liable for a customer having a heart attack in their store? Surely they called an ambulance--that would seem to be the bare minimum--but I can't see you being satisfied with that response. How far do they have to go?

What is the strict liability defense that you are adapting?
06-24-2014 06:12 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #71
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
If Target buys AEDs for their stores and does not provide trained personnel to operate them I believe they are exposing themselves to more liability than if they did not have the AEDs at all. An AED hanging on the wall without trained personnel is just an ugly, expensive piece of artwork. Relying on trained customers when the need arises is nonsensical.
06-24-2014 06:27 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-24-2014 05:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We aren't talking strict scrutiny. That's a Constituional law doctrine.

We are talking strict liability, a tort law doctine.

I think we've discovered our problem, you aren't following the terminology or concepts at all.


That isn't it at all. I follow you perfectly. I simply make mistakes when as in here, I try and follow your silly train of thought merely because you refuse to add any context to it... insisting that to do so changes your argument somehow... but you apparently can't say how without referring me to some obtusely related law suit... again, without explaining how it applies.... only claiming that it does.

If you want to act like a lawyer, then pretend I'm a juror and explain your point.

You want to make them strictly liable for failing to do something you find reasonable and to advance society. I get that.

I point out that it seems they considered that and decided that it wasn't reasonable.

You won't even TOUCH that explanation.

You won't discuss that you think they should be strictly liable for something without talking about whether it is actually beneficial and advances society.

You CERTAINLY won't discuss what the cost of that liability is.

So what is the point in talking to you about it?
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 02:12 PM by Hambone10.)
06-25-2014 02:10 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #73
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 02:10 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-24-2014 05:31 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We aren't talking strict scrutiny. That's a Constituional law doctrine.

We are talking strict liability, a tort law doctine.

I think we've discovered our problem, you aren't following the terminology or concepts at all.


That isn't it at all. I follow you perfectly. I simply make mistakes when as in here, I try and follow your silly train of thought merely because you refuse to add any context to it... insisting that to do so changes your argument somehow... but you apparently can't say how without referring me to some obtusely related law suit... again, without explaining how it applies.... only claiming that it does.

If you want to act like a lawyer, then pretend I'm a juror and explain your point.

You want to make them strictly liable for failing to do something you find reasonable and to advance society. I get that.

I point out that it seems they considered that and decided that it wasn't reasonable.

You won't even TOUCH that explanation.

You won't discuss that you think they should be strictly liable for something without talking about whether it is actually beneficial and advances society.

You CERTAINLY won't discuss what the cost of that liability is.

So what is the point in talking to you about it?

No

You are not following.
06-25-2014 02:13 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #74
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
One more time:

More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.

Now, separate ourselves for a second.

If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.

It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.

The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 02:30 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
06-25-2014 02:28 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:

More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.

Now, separate ourselves for a second.

If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.

It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.

The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

I've always heard of strict liability referring to a product or activity that can harm a consumer regardless of whether there is negligence or defect. There is nothing in a store that would cause a heart attack (generally speaking).
06-25-2014 03:07 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #76
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 03:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:

More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.

Now, separate ourselves for a second.

If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.

It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.

The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

I've always heard of strict liability referring to a product or activity that can harm a consumer regardless of whether there is negligence or defect. There is nothing in a store that would cause a heart attack (generally speaking).

You're right. However, the major premise is that you pay for the damage you inflict through the course of business, it's loosely based on the idea of unjust enrichment. To do something that causes harm in spite of whether or not their was negligence would necessitate the need for strict liability because it would deprive people of any recourse, which is unjust enrichment in fact. I've argued that bringing in vast numbers of people to your store knowing **** will happen to them and taking no steps to protect them would be to unjustly enrich yourself by not protecting people from the harm that will befall them through the course of your business.

The court here would be applying that rationale, which is a new application of it. Still, it isn't without precedent because nearly identical arguments were raised in defense of the tobacco industry.
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 03:49 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
06-25-2014 03:47 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 03:47 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 03:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:

More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.

Now, separate ourselves for a second.

If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.

It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.

The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

I've always heard of strict liability referring to a product or activity that can harm a consumer regardless of whether there is negligence or defect. There is nothing in a store that would cause a heart attack (generally speaking).

You're right. However, the major premise is that you pay for the damage you inflict through the course of business, it's loosely based on the idea of unjust enrichment. To do something that causes harm in spite of whether or not their was negligence would necessitate the need for strict liability because it would deprive people of any recourse, which is unjust enrichment in fact. I've argued that bringing in vast numbers of people to your store knowing **** will happen to them and taking no steps to protect them would be to unjustly enrich yourself by not protecting people from the harm that will befall them through the course of your business.

The court here would be applying that rationale, which is a new application of it. Still, it isn't without precedent because nearly identical arguments were raised in defense of the tobacco industry.

Tobacco does harm people so I'm not sure what you mean.
06-25-2014 03:50 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #78
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 03:50 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 03:47 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 03:07 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:

More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.

Now, separate ourselves for a second.

If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.

It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.

The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

I've always heard of strict liability referring to a product or activity that can harm a consumer regardless of whether there is negligence or defect. There is nothing in a store that would cause a heart attack (generally speaking).

You're right. However, the major premise is that you pay for the damage you inflict through the course of business, it's loosely based on the idea of unjust enrichment. To do something that causes harm in spite of whether or not their was negligence would necessitate the need for strict liability because it would deprive people of any recourse, which is unjust enrichment in fact. I've argued that bringing in vast numbers of people to your store knowing **** will happen to them and taking no steps to protect them would be to unjustly enrich yourself by not protecting people from the harm that will befall them through the course of your business.

The court here would be applying that rationale, which is a new application of it. Still, it isn't without precedent because nearly identical arguments were raised in defense of the tobacco industry.

Tobacco does harm people so I'm not sure what you mean.

In that there are disconnects between the cause and effect, such as choice, attenuation, self protection, etc.
06-25-2014 03:55 PM
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jh Offline
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Post: #79
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:
More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.
Now, separate ourselves for a second.
If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.
It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.
The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

One last time, you do not understand what strict liability is. First, as NIU007 noted, strict liability only applies to products and abnormally dangerous activities. If a store is strictly liable for a harm then they are strictly liable regardless of what they do. That's the whole point. If a blasting company sets up the perfect blast, but something goes wrong and a nearby house is damaged, the blasting company pays regardless of the safety measures they put in place. Saying that a store is strictly liable unless they have done something is saying that they are not strictly liable. It's saying that they have failed to exercise a reasonable standard of care. Which is negligence, not strict liability.

Of course, you don't actually want negligence either, because you are trying to completely divorce causation from the analysis. A store is only liable for harms that it causes. And, as has been previously noted, stores don't cause heart attacks, heart attacks happen in stores. It's statistically certain that in a Target store at this very moment, as long as you are reading this during their business hours, someone is being battered inside a Target store. Are they liable for those too? Are they liable every time a brother pulls his sister's pigtails? The very suggestion is ludicrous.

I'm guessing that attempting to avoid causation is why you a trying to bring in strict liability, but that doesn't save you either. Even under strict liability the plaintiff still has to prove causation. If a reasonably foreseeable use of a manufacturer's did not cause the harm, the manufacturer is not liable. I'm guessing this is the strict liability defense you are trying to flip, but your version makes no sense. What the defense is is that, regardless of the justifications for strict liability, in this case what the plaintiff did was so stupid that the harm cannot be blamed on the product. Your version is just that something bad happened in a store and stores have lots of money so they should pay even though they did nothing to cause the harm. Nothing Target could have done would have prevented the heart attack.

You also don't seem to realize that stores already owe their customers a heightened duty because the customers are business invitees. Of course, no company owes its invitees anywhere near the level of care you have deemed appropriate. Common law isn't going to get you there--despite your protestations the only way to impose the kind of affirmative duty you are attempting to impose is through regulation. Some legislatures might be stupid enough to do it, but I hope not many.

Now you are comparing a store allowing customers to come in with tobacco companies selling cigarettes? If I remember correctly, the defense that was denied the tobacco industry was the assumption of risk (or contributory negligence) on the part of the smoker. Once again, that has nothing to do with the case at hand. Target's claim is that their stores don't cause cancer, not that someone assumed the risk of getting cancer when they walked into the store.

Quote:you pay for the damage you inflict through the course of business

Target didn't inflict any damage. If typing out this statement didn't make you clearly see how ludicrous your position is, this is clearly a hopeless task, so I incredulously bow out.
06-25-2014 04:05 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #80
RE: California Supreme Court gets one right.
(06-25-2014 04:05 PM)jh Wrote:  
(06-25-2014 02:28 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  One more time:
More than merely foreseeable harms that occur in stores like Target, Wal Mart, etc--which operate on the basis of serving vast numbers of people--will impart strict liability on those stores. So, in practice, if Target knows that it will bring in 100,000 people and knows that it is a statistical certainty that X will occur to a person or persons then they are strictly liable should they take absolutely no action to prevent that harm or lessen it.
Now, separate ourselves for a second.
If the store can demonstrate, to any degree, that they did foresee the problem and take preventative steps, only to the extent that they accepted and acted upon their heightened duty to protect, they can then defend themselves by arguing that there was or was not negligence. This is the point at which a reasonableness argument comes into play for Target. A valid defense would be that it was unreasonable to do X instead of Y, which we did.
It's a two step analysis which merely makes step 1 strict liability instead of starting at step 2, as they did in California.
The entire goal is to recognize a heightened duty to protect. It's a two step process based on sheer size and probability.

One last time, you do not understand what strict liability is. First, as NIU007 noted, strict liability only applies to products and abnormally dangerous activities. If a store is strictly liable for a harm then they are strictly liable regardless of what they do. That's the whole point. If a blasting company sets up the perfect blast, but something goes wrong and a nearby house is damaged, the blasting company pays regardless of the safety measures they put in place. Saying that a store is strictly liable unless they have done something is saying that they are not strictly liable. It's saying that they have failed to exercise a reasonable standard of care. Which is negligence, not strict liability.

Of course, you don't actually want negligence either, because you are trying to completely divorce causation from the analysis. A store is only liable for harms that it causes. And, as has been previously noted, stores don't cause heart attacks, heart attacks happen in stores. It's statistically certain that in a Target store at this very moment, as long as you are reading this during their business hours, someone is being battered inside a Target store. Are they liable for those too? Are they liable every time a brother pulls his sister's pigtails? The very suggestion is ludicrous.

I'm guessing that attempting to avoid causation is why you a trying to bring in strict liability, but that doesn't save you either. Even under strict liability the plaintiff still has to prove causation. If a reasonably foreseeable use of a manufacturer's did not cause the harm, the manufacturer is not liable. I'm guessing this is the strict liability defense you are trying to flip, but your version makes no sense. What the defense is is that, regardless of the justifications for strict liability, in this case what the plaintiff did was so stupid that the harm cannot be blamed on the product. Your version is just that something bad happened in a store and stores have lots of money so they should pay even though they did nothing to cause the harm. Nothing Target could have done would have prevented the heart attack.

You also don't seem to realize that stores already owe their customers a heightened duty because the customers are business invitees. Of course, no company owes its invitees anywhere near the level of care you have deemed appropriate. Common law isn't going to get you there--despite your protestations the only way to impose the kind of affirmative duty you are attempting to impose is through regulation. Some legislatures might be stupid enough to do it, but I hope not many.

Now you are comparing a store allowing customers to come in with tobacco companies selling cigarettes? If I remember correctly, the defense that was denied the tobacco industry was the assumption of risk (or contributory negligence) on the part of the smoker. Once again, that has nothing to do with the case at hand. Target's claim is that their stores don't cause cancer, not that someone assumed the risk of getting cancer when they walked into the store.

Quote:you pay for the damage you inflict through the course of business

Target didn't inflict any damage. If typing out this statement didn't make you clearly see how ludicrous your position is, this is clearly a hopeless task, so I incredulously bow out.

Good
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2014 04:09 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
06-25-2014 04:09 PM
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