The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(06-24-2014 11:44 AM)MajorHoople Wrote:  ...and Pussky trying to get us to all line up like mindless lemmings behind his man-crush Coach Nero.

Keep at it, smart guy.

Still in amazement the childish name-calling that comes from someone of your pedigree...

Not sure why you're so fixated on me thinking Fleck has been doing good work. As I've said a million times, you'll find me consistently supporting more WMU head coaches than just Fleck.

I offer an outsider's view of the WMU football program, FWIW, and see some things that would concern me if I were in your shoes.

Perception of the WMU Program has dropped due to:

*Last season's 1-11 record, which I believe was the most losses in a season in WMU history.
*Season post-mortem by Sportswriter labelling the program as "buffoonish".
*The New Traditions video was a head scratcher
*The gimmicks, slogans, etc. used by Fleck that aren't Bronco related
*Alienating the football Alums

Future Possibilites:

Consensus appears to forecast a 4 win season in 2014. That would be a 5-19 record for Fleck. If he were to turn it around, and put together a couple of very good seasons in 2015 & 2016, chances are good based on history of MAC coaching departures he would be leaving WMU. If he does, how does the new coach follow what he has left behind? What do you do with the rubber steaks, oars, etc? Assuming the recruiting lives up to it's promise, the new coach would have talent to work with, but the culture would most likely go through another big change.

What I see is that the transition from Cubit to Fleck was about as rough as it gets. The price paid for the change so far is a probable 5-19 record, and if successful, you may have to start the process over in three years. What payoff do you think it would take to make it all worthwhile? What are your expectations of the Fleck era?

(06-24-2014 10:21 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 10:19 AM)flushtheherd Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 10:16 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 10:13 AM)Broncobelt Wrote:  ^There are no real victories (that count) until the team takes the field.

Incredibly short-sighted and small picture, but you're entitled to your opinion I suppose.

The only victory is the victory on the field... otherwise your playing youth soccer and not keeping score. Come on now.. your better than that.

And how do you think you get to the point of fielding a team capable of winning on the field? Are we this simpleton that we don't understand there is a process for getting there?

Serious question for you Hoek. Not baiting you. I'm curious as to your thoughts are as to what exactly is the process of fielding a team capable of winning? You know, beyond recruiting players? What steps in the process remain to be executed. Don't need to see a treatise, just curious as to your thoughts on what comes next?

Oh this should be good.....

(06-24-2014 12:13 PM)bronco47 Wrote:  Serious question for you Hoek. Not baiting you. I'm curious as to your thoughts are as to what exactly is the process of fielding a team capable of winning? You know, beyond recruiting players? What steps in the process remain to be executed. Don't need to see a treatise, just curious as to your thoughts on what comes next?

Honest answer is that I believe coaching is overrated and that players for the most part, win games. Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I think things have been going well in strength and conditioning, proof in the loss of 4% body weight team wide. The nutrition change and positive effects it's had on the team last year, that's been well documented.

I attended a lot of practices in 2012, and I attended a lot of practices in 2013. Simply put, there is no comparison.

2012 resembled a group of kids that were frustrated, lazy, and didn't respond to the coaching staff. 2013 resembled a group of rejuvenated kids, sprinting from drill to drill, singing along with music (i.e. DJ), enjoying themselves, loving the game, and full attention to coach staff at every instruction.

I could go on, but I think you get the point...

I'm going to limit the bad mouthing of the previous regime and just say that many people out there know a change needed to be made. And I think even without some of that info, a lot of people here would still agree.

I've seen enough evidence first-hand that I am not "blindly following" and just making this stuff up. In my opinion, the program is moving in a positive direction.

(06-24-2014 12:11 PM)chipfan Wrote:  What I see is that the transition from Cubit to Fleck was about as rough as it gets. The price paid for the change so far is a probable 5-19 record, and if successful, you may have to start the process over in three years. What payoff do you think it would take to make it all worthwhile? What are your expectations of the Fleck era?

You have a good perspective on WMU's situation, Chipfan. I don't think there was a transition from Cubit to Fleck. More like a political change. When a new political party takes over they throw out everything associated with the old regime and start from scratch. Which is why we never see continuous improvement in government.

At this point my only expectation of the Fleck era is that it will be short. He either can't turn it around and gets canned, or he wins and catches the first train available out of Kazoo. Must of us in Broncoland understand this. However, how we are experiencing the ride differs greatly.

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

I LOL'd when I read that part too.

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Coach Hawkins has been quoted many times saying the exact same thing. But you're probably right, what does he know?

(06-24-2014 12:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Coach Hawkins has been quoted many times saying the exact same thing. But you're probably right, what does he know?

Two things. Hawkins doesn't coach football. Secondly, John Wooden sure didn't say that.

Hawkins always says players win games and coaching is overrated. You should pay closer attention.

Tell me CF, would you rather have a first year coach who takes over an injury riddled program, goes 1-11, and is killing it on the recruiting front.......

Or would you rather have a first year guy who inherits good talent, is coming off a successful season, has a so so recruiting class, and goes 3-9?

Would you rather have someone who generates excitement from recruits, and who is out in the community, or would rather have less than exciting leader who lives 30 miles away?

Would you rather have someone who has upside and potential, or someone who has a proven track record of losing?

Right now Fleck's future is pure speculation, he's shown a real knack for getting talent. I 'd say the jury is still out as to whether he can coach as he had little to work with. In a head to head with Enos it appeared that neither are X's and O's geniuses. Enos has a 4 year resume that has shown little or no growth. Fleck has done some things that show some upside.

In other words I wouldn't start your pity party for us quite yet.

(06-24-2014 12:40 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Coach Hawkins has been quoted many times saying the exact same thing. But you're probably right, what does he know?

Hawkins is just being modest and giving his players center stage. Every leadership conference I have ever attended (and have attended numerous ones) stressed that a team is only as good as its leader. Also a good leader focuses on giving credit to the team and recognizing team members.

a.k.a. "Hawkins is just different"

Ok guys.

I laid it out there for you, will leave it at that for now.

(06-24-2014 12:28 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:13 PM)bronco47 Wrote:  Serious question for you Hoek. Not baiting you. I'm curious as to your thoughts are as to what exactly is the process of fielding a team capable of winning? You know, beyond recruiting players? What steps in the process remain to be executed. Don't need to see a treatise, just curious as to your thoughts on what comes next?

Honest answer is that I believe coaching is overrated and that players for the most part, win games. Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I think things have been going well in strength and conditioning, proof in the loss of 4% body weight team wide. The nutrition change and positive effects it's had on the team last year, that's been well documented.

I attended a lot of practices in 2012, and I attended a lot of practices in 2013. Simply put, there is no comparison.

2012 resembled a group of kids that were frustrated, lazy, and didn't respond to the coaching staff. 2013 resembled a group of rejuvenated kids, sprinting from drill to drill, singing along with music (i.e. DJ), enjoying themselves, loving the game, and full attention to coach staff at every instruction.

I could go on, but I think you get the point...

I'm going to limit the bad mouthing of the previous regime and just say that many people out there know a change needed to be made. And I think even without some of that info, a lot of people here would still agree.

I've seen enough evidence first-hand that I am not "blindly following" and just making this stuff up. In my opinion, the program is moving in a positive direction.

OK, I'll help.

So far:
Improved football facilities
Established a framework and context for culture change
Emphasized the recruiting process with seemingly good results
Provided an energetic practice environment
Providing a first class strength and conditioning environment.

OK. What about schemes, game plan, etc? I see the list above as more operational support, and less about actual sports coaching. I vaguely recall at one point PJ saying he saw that as the job of the OC and DC.

Do you think he sees it that way? That he is not involved so much in game day planning and execution?

I do reject the idea that better players can simply improvise a winning game.

Disagree completely about the talent on the field comment Hoek. Coaching means everything at this level. Talent can be outworked and put into bad positions by smart coaches on the opposite sidelines.

(06-24-2014 12:50 PM)EA3 Wrote:  Disagree completely about the talent on the field comment Hoek. Coaching means everything at this level. Talent can be outworked and put into bad positions by smart coaches on the opposite sidelines.

Of course, but as I said earlier they seem to be putting in the work too.

I would argue that talent is even more important at this level, but that's just me.

(06-24-2014 12:42 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  Hawkins always says players win games and coaching is overrated. You should pay closer attention.

Hawk says that for 2 reasons:

1. Basketball is a completely different sport that does not require near the amount of discipline when compared to football.

2. He deflects attention away from himself when the team wins, and takes the blames when they lose. He does not want or need the attention. Win and things will take care of themselves.

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Please, tell us how he's off by a mile.......or should we wait for someone else to try and answer the question for you and then you can go "BAM" or "^this."

(06-24-2014 12:58 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(06-24-2014 12:30 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

Quote:Sure, coaches can put you in a position to succeed. But if you have the best players on the field, it's pretty hard to lose.

I'd say you were off by a mile with that one.

Please, tell us how he's off by a mile.......or should we wait for someone else to try and answer the question for you and then you can go "BAM" or "^this."

Seriously, it's exhausting arguing with a bunch of followers.