(06-18-2014 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:19 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?

I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.

Sorry.

tell me, what do you see when you look at this picture?

EagleX finally admitting defeat.

weak.

Yes...yes you are.

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?
How do you reconcile those two positions?

(06-18-2014 09:45 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:19 AM)EagleX Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?

I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.

Sorry.

tell me, what do you see when you look at this picture?

EagleX finally admitting defeat.

weak.

The first thing I thought of was the little alien ships in the Space Invaders video game.

Loved that game VA. I happened on a repairman for that game once and he told me how to make sure you got 3,000 points for destroying that ship that scrolled across the top. You had to fire an exact number of shots in between blowing it up.

(06-18-2014 09:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Loved that game VA. I happened on a repairman for that game once and he told me how to make sure you got 3,000 points for destroying that ship that scrolled across the top. You had to fire an exact number of shots in between blowing it up.

Yeah, that was good one. Pretty sure kids would laugh at that game today though.

(06-18-2014 09:49 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Yes...yes you are.

ah, the "I know you are, but what am I?" defense. now you're just embarrassing yourself.

(06-18-2014 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?

No...not really. I only give him credit for sticking to the agreement.

(06-18-2014 10:05 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?

No...not really. I only give him credit for sticking to the agreement.

Fair enough. You're back to being a reasonable lefty, at least on this issue.

(06-18-2014 10:05 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?

No...not really. I only give him credit for sticking to the agreement.

I can see that; however, the situation in Iraq has always been very fluid. Obama was told by the generals in Iraq that leaving too soon would not be a wise decision, regardles of whatever "plan" was in place. Obama did not heed that advice. Yes, Obama was just sticking to the "plan" but plans can and should change if terms dictate.

With regards to both the framework for leaving Iraq that Bush set up in the last few months of his presidency and the decision to leave Iraq, you have to consider (1) communication between Obama's people and the Bush administration, and (2) what the Iraqi government was doing. I don't think there is any General or anyone in either administration that would advocate staying in Iraq without the status of forces agreement that Iraq was not able to provide at that time. I also have to question if Bush's exit plan would've been at all similar if McCain had won the election in 2008.

No way we stay there without a SOFA agreement. That would be an impossible situation.

(06-18-2014 11:05 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 10:05 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?

No...not really. I only give him credit for sticking to the agreement.

I can see that; however, the situation in Iraq has always been very fluid. Obama was told by the generals in Iraq that leaving too soon would not be a wise decision, regardles of whatever "plan" was in place. Obama did not heed that advice. Yes, Obama was just sticking to the "plan" but plans can and should change if terms dictate.

America lost the will to stay in Iraq...if they ever had it. No way Obama would have committed to staying any longer regardless of changes in condition to go against that sentiment.

He couldn't even get the war mongers in congress to bring the Syria authorization to a vote for cripes sake!

I don't think we ever had the will to do Iraq the way it needed to be done--overwhelming force, guns blazing, kill everybody that needs killing and blow up everything that they might use, then leave.

I'm not even sure that we ever had the will to do Afghanistan that way, not even after 9/11.

So the decision was made to try to give us this antiseptic war where nobody got hurt. Only war doesn't work like that. It's not all sitting in your living room watching the display from a guided weapon and figuring out which window you want it to go through.

Never fight a war you don't intend to win. In to win, or don't go in. Bush/Chaney/Rummy (take your pick, or all of the above) violated that principle in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Obama and his regime continued to violate it.

(06-18-2014 01:38 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 11:05 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 10:05 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 09:53 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-18-2014 08:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Eagle, who designed the Iraq war and planned for the exit strategy by signing the status of forces of agreement removing all US forces from Iraq?
I know it's not very convenient for you and your agenda, but it wasn't Obama and the Democrats.
Sorry.

But you still give Obama credit for ending the war, right?

No...not really. I only give him credit for sticking to the agreement.

I can see that; however, the situation in Iraq has always been very fluid. Obama was told by the generals in Iraq that leaving too soon would not be a wise decision, regardles of whatever "plan" was in place. Obama did not heed that advice. Yes, Obama was just sticking to the "plan" but plans can and should change if terms dictate.

America lost the will to stay in Iraq...if they ever had it. No way Obama would have committed to staying any longer regardless of changes in condition to go against that sentiment.

He couldn't even get the war mongers in congress to bring the Syria authorization to a vote for cripes sake!

yes, harry reid, nancy pelosi, and the dem presidential field of 7 dwarfs constantly declaring the war "lost" (treasonous bastards) probably managed to shake many good and honest people's belief in persecuting the war.

it's the "big lie"; if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, eventually, people forget the truth and believe the lie.

When I came back from my hiatus, I removed the ignore from pretty much everyone and vowed to leave everyone off it. I'm seriously starting to re-think that position. SMH.

(06-18-2014 11:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  No way we stay there without a SOFA agreement. That would be an impossible situation.

Right. So the only valid criticism of Obama with regards to keeping troops there is whether he tried hard enough our could have gotten the Iraqis to pass the SOFA, and it's likely that there's no way that he nor Maliki could've pushed it through no matter how hard they tried. From there, it's Maliki's misuse of power that paved the way for ISIS.

Eagle your thoughts and reality can not go exist. I'm sorry. The "surge" that you are trumpeting was just the early seeds of ISIS. Please come to grips with reality.

(06-18-2014 01:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't think we ever had the will to do Iraq the way it needed to be done--overwhelming force, guns blazing, kill everybody that needs killing and blow up everything that they might use, then leave.

I'm not even sure that we ever had the will to do Afghanistan that way, not even after 9/11.

So the decision was made to try to give us this antiseptic war where nobody got hurt. Only war doesn't work like that. It's not all sitting in your living room watching the display from a guided weapon and figuring out which window you want it to go through.

Never fight a war you don't intend to win. In to win, or don't go in. Bush/Chaney/Rummy (take your pick, or all of the above) violated that principle in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Obama and his regime continued to violate it.

I think the problem is that the enemy in Afghanistan and Iraq was not wearing uniforms. Unless they're shooting at you or walking around with weapons, you don't know who the bad guys are. Intelligence can help some but you probably need at least some help from the populace. Which you will not get if you just killed their relatives. There's always going to be collateral damage, but I think there's a tipping point.

Owl must have missed the whole shock and awe stage.........

Seriously Owl. You can't just go around killing people indiscriminately. You can't tell friend from foe over there.