(06-15-2014 08:34 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:18 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 07:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I am unaware of any studies that support your assertion, but even if they are out there, I suspect drug use and suicide rates would be influenced not by being gay, but by having to endure the hatred and discrimination they are subjected to. You know, you seem to know alot about this issue, even if most of it is incorrect. I'm starting to wonder if you have some hidden interest in the subject. Homophobia is sometimes ascribed to people who are secretly gay and refuse to accept it. They are afraid and despise the very thing they may in fact, be.

So you start by arguing gay drug use and suicide rates aren't due to their gayness and end by saying they are afraid and despise what they are. But they wouldn't be hanging themselves for that though, no. They keep it secret but endure hatred and discrimination none the less. Wonderful. You believe both cold and hot prove warming also, don't you.

For the record, TominLazybrook has discussed the drugs and suicide rates.

Oh and homophobia has no meaning. Just made up drivel. But you keep right on posting and maybe someday someone will accuse you of being a homophobic homo too.

Paul, don't you see it - he's implying that you're a closet homosexual because he thinks that's a good slur to hurl at you. So in his mind, there is something wrong with being gay otherwise there would be no slur to hurl. It's always the liberals who are the racists and homophobes and they hide it by accusing us of the same thing at the top of their lungs.

You probably should have PM'ed Paul. Filling him in on the board is tacit admission he's to dense to get it.
You guys need to join the circus. Your all excellent contortionists. As I tighten the vice on your idiocy, you become less and less coherent. Please read some of your nonsense. It defies belief and sounds like the reasoning of a 12 year old.

You keep telling yourself that you're more intelligent than the rest of us; you might start to believe your own lies. It's possible you already do, but I try not to make presumptions.

Not more intelligent, not at all. Just far less afraid and thus better able to be objective and rational.Irrational fear leads to people to refuse to see the truth, and make absurd statements like someone did a while back on this thread to the effect the experts are all wrong.

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  If a gay leleads an otherwise peaceful., productive life, causes neither themself nor others harm, would you still advocate they receive therapy?

I don't think anyone is advocating therapy for those not looking for it. If someone claims they can help and someone wants to try, they shouldn't be blocked. Pro choice brother. Can I get a holla?

(06-15-2014 08:37 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:34 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:18 PM)Paul M Wrote:  So you start by arguing gay drug use and suicide rates aren't due to their gayness and end by saying they are afraid and despise what they are. But they wouldn't be hanging themselves for that though, no. They keep it secret but endure hatred and discrimination none the less. Wonderful. You believe both cold and hot prove warming also, don't you.

For the record, TominLazybrook has discussed the drugs and suicide rates.

Oh and homophobia has no meaning. Just made up drivel. But you keep right on posting and maybe someday someone will accuse you of being a homophobic homo too.

Paul, don't you see it - he's implying that you're a closet homosexual because he thinks that's a good slur to hurl at you. So in his mind, there is something wrong with being gay otherwise there would be no slur to hurl. It's always the liberals who are the racists and homophobes and they hide it by accusing us of the same thing at the top of their lungs.

You probably should have PM'ed Paul. Filling him in on the board is tacit admission he's to dense to get it.
You guys need to join the circus. Your all excellent contortionists. As I tighten the vice on your idiocy, you become less and less coherent. Please read some of your nonsense. It defies belief and sounds like the reasoning of a 12 year old.

You keep telling yourself that you're more intelligent than the rest of us; you might start to believe your own lies. It's possible you already do, but I try not to make presumptions.

Not more intelligent, not at all. Just far less afraid and thus better able to be objective and rational.

and I didn't think you had a sense of humor

(06-15-2014 08:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:18 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 07:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I am unaware of any studies that support your assertion, but even if they are out there, I suspect drug use and suicide rates would be influenced not by being gay, but by having to endure the hatred and discrimination they are subjected to. You know, you seem to know alot about this issue, even if most of it is incorrect. I'm starting to wonder if you have some hidden interest in the subject. Homophobia is sometimes ascribed to people who are secretly gay and refuse to accept it. They are afraid and despise the very thing they may in fact, be.

So you start by arguing gay drug use and suicide rates aren't due to their gayness and end by saying they are afraid and despise what they are. But they wouldn't be hanging themselves for that though, no. They keep it secret but endure hatred and discrimination none the less. Wonderful. You believe both cold and hot prove warming also, don't you.

For the record, TominLazybrook has discussed the drugs and suicide rates.

Oh and homophobia has no meaning. Just made up drivel. But you keep right on posting and maybe someday someone will accuse you of being a homophobic homo too.

Paul, don't you see it - he's implying that you're a closet homosexual because he thinks that's a good slur to hurl at you. So in his mind, there is something wrong with being gay otherwise there would be no slur to hurl. It's always the liberals who are the racists and homophobes and they hide it by accusing us of the same thing at the top of their lungs.

You probably should have PM'ed Paul. Filling him in on the board is tacit admission he's to dense to get it.
You guys need to join the circus. Your all excellent contortionists. As I tighten the vice on your idiocy, you become less and less coherent. Please read some of your nonsense. It defies belief and sounds like the reasoning of a 12 year old.

Talk about dense, that was for you to see, not him.

(06-15-2014 08:36 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:18 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 07:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I am unaware of any studies that support your assertion, but even if they are out there, I suspect drug use and suicide rates would be influenced not by being gay, but by having to endure the hatred and discrimination they are subjected to. You know, you seem to know alot about this issue, even if most of it is incorrect. I'm starting to wonder if you have some hidden interest in the subject. Homophobia is sometimes ascribed to people who are secretly gay and refuse to accept it. They are afraid and despise the very thing they may in fact, be.

So you start by arguing gay drug use and suicide rates aren't due to their gayness and end by saying they are afraid and despise what they are. But they wouldn't be hanging themselves for that though, no. They keep it secret but endure hatred and discrimination none the less. Wonderful. You believe both cold and hot prove warming also, don't you.

For the record, TominLazybrook has discussed the drugs and suicide rates.

Oh and homophobia has no meaning. Just made up drivel. But you keep right on posting and maybe someday someone will accuse you of being a homophobic homo too.

Paul, don't you see it - he's implying that you're a closet homosexual because he thinks that's a good slur to hurl at you. So in his mind, there is something wrong with being gay otherwise there would be no slur to hurl. It's always the liberals who are the racists and homophobes and they hide it by accusing us of the same thing at the top of their lungs.

You probably should have PM'ed Paul. Filling him in on the board is tacit admission he's to dense to get it.
You guys need to join the circus. Your all excellent contortionists. As I tighten the vice on your idiocy, you become less and less coherent. Please read some of your nonsense. It defies belief and sounds like the reasoning of a 12 year old.

I happen to agree with SMN, you used being a homosexual as an insult so you must believe being a homosexual is not normal.

Fallacious reasoning. You missed my point. YOU think it's it an insult. That is why I said it, not because I doo. Geez kids, get with it.

(06-15-2014 08:29 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Your all excellent contortionists. As I tighten the vice on your idiocy, you become less and less coherent. Please read some of your nonsense. It defies belief and sounds like the reasoning of a 12 year old.

john? Is that you, johniezero?

(06-15-2014 08:38 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:25 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  If a gay leleads an otherwise peaceful., productive life, causes neither themself nor others harm, would you still advocate they receive therapy?

I don't think anyone is advocating therapy for those not looking for it. If someone claims they can help and someone wants to try, they shouldn't be blocked. Pro choice brother. Can I get a holla? Amen brotha!

(06-15-2014 05:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 05:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  This article is about someone who wants to be cured and has a comment from someone refusing the cure.

Quote:A TOOWOOMBA Christian ministry run by a former lesbian claims to be able to heal people of their homosexuality.

Triumphant Ministries Toowoomba was founded by Kathleen Malligan, who says she was "delivered from her lesbianism by Jesus Christ".

Ms Malligan says on the ministry's website she can help people who "want freedom and deliverance from a lifestyle of homosexuality".

"I was lesbian, sex addicted yet without gender confusion," she said.

"It will be 19 years in December 2014 since I have been in a lesbian relationship or had sexual intimacy with any woman.

"Today I no longer identify with being a lesbian, but a woman who is restored and heterosexual, who has this attraction but who has to guard her heart against this homosexual lust coming back to life again."

Ms Malligan says she can give homosexuals the knowledge and skills to repair their "sexual brokenness".

Toowoomba artist Reece Murray, 21, left school in grade 11 after he was bullied for being gay and said it was an insult to claim being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered was something to be freed from.

"I know that this woman is kidding herself. You can't change your sexuality for anyone."

"The fact that this is still going on in this day and age infuriates me.

"Every gay friend I have has had some sort of difficulty being gay in Toowoomba."

http://www.northernstar.com.au/news/ex-l...e/2287582/

That doesn't sound "cured" to me. It sounds like a person who is suppressing her natural desires for religious reasons. More power to her, but she certainly is not "cured" for the obvious reason there is nothing to be cured from.

Can a Pedophile be cured?

I'm not comparing the two in terms of the criminal nature of the action but both are sexual lifestyles based on the people they are attracted to...

Can an Alcoholic be cured?

I'm no comparing being gay to being addicted to a substance but many would consider a "cure" for Alcoholism to look like a person suppressing desire and abstaining from a behavior.

Moreover she did not say she was "free" as she said she still has to guard. Thats the way it is with sin..

(06-15-2014 08:09 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 08:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 07:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  You know, you seem to know alot about this issue, even if most of it is incorrect. I'm starting to wonder if you have some hidden interest in the subject. Homophobia is sometimes ascribed to people who are secretly gay and refuse to accept it. They are afraid and despise the very thing they may in fact, be.

I think you're out of line here. You're assuming a lot that is not in evidence, and suggesting things that are potentially pretty distasteful about someone whom you have never met. Let's talk about issues here, and stay away from inappropriate and unwarranted ad hominems.

+1

+2

(06-15-2014 09:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 05:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 05:10 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  This article is about someone who wants to be cured and has a comment from someone refusing the cure.

Quote:A TOOWOOMBA Christian ministry run by a former lesbian claims to be able to heal people of their homosexuality.

Triumphant Ministries Toowoomba was founded by Kathleen Malligan, who says she was "delivered from her lesbianism by Jesus Christ".

Ms Malligan says on the ministry's website she can help people who "want freedom and deliverance from a lifestyle of homosexuality".

"I was lesbian, sex addicted yet without gender confusion," she said.

"It will be 19 years in December 2014 since I have been in a lesbian relationship or had sexual intimacy with any woman.

"Today I no longer identify with being a lesbian, but a woman who is restored and heterosexual, who has this attraction but who has to guard her heart against this homosexual lust coming back to life again."

Ms Malligan says she can give homosexuals the knowledge and skills to repair their "sexual brokenness".

Toowoomba artist Reece Murray, 21, left school in grade 11 after he was bullied for being gay and said it was an insult to claim being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered was something to be freed from.

"I know that this woman is kidding herself. You can't change your sexuality for anyone."

"The fact that this is still going on in this day and age infuriates me.

"Every gay friend I have has had some sort of difficulty being gay in Toowoomba."

http://www.northernstar.com.au/news/ex-l...e/2287582/

That doesn't sound "cured" to me. It sounds like a person who is suppressing her natural desires for religious reasons. More power to her, but she certainly is not "cured" for the obvious reason there is nothing to be cured from.

Can a Pedophile be cured?

I'm not comparing the two in terms of the criminal nature of the action but both are sexual lifestyles based on the people they are attracted to...

Can an Alcoholic be cured?

I'm no comparing being gay to being addicted to a substance but many would consider a "cure" for Alcoholism to look like a person suppressing desire and abstaining from a behavior.

Moreover she did not say she was "free" as she said she still has to guard. Thats the way it is with sin..

Bull- It's important that you realize pedophilia is not a sexual lifestyle. No more than rape is. they are primarily acts of aggression, dominance and control against weaker people. They use sex as a means to completely dominate. No a pedophile cannot be cured. The best society can do is impose restrictions and monitoring to keep them away from potential targets and force them to suffer consequences strong enough to deter the activity.
Actually alcoholism cannot be cured in the sense most people mean. An alcoholic may successfully reframe from drinking, in that case the disease is in remission. However, the physical aspect of addiction always remains. Once a pickle, you can never again be a cucumber. You are correct abstinence may appear to be nothing more than exercising willpower, but there is a difference between simple abstinence and true recovery. Alcoholics who work the 12 steps, develop a spiritual life (notice I did not say religious, although that may be true for some), and work with others are capable of living very productive, happy lives, with seldom a thought of dinking.
Keep in mind most people with addictions use drugs/alcohol to medicate deeper emotional scars. these scars need to be addressed for much chance at long term recovery.

Where are these +1s and defenders when posters like okla call people pedophiles, gay, etc.

Funnybto me youre quick to defend one of your own when a comment crosses the line (which it did) but dont rise up when conservative posters post lewd and awful defamatory comments like what I mentioned.

Amazes me.

(06-15-2014 09:16 PM)JDTulane Wrote:  Where are these +1s and defenders when posters like okla call people pedophiles, gay, etc.

Funnybto me youre quick to defend one of your own when a comment crosses the line (which it did) but dont rise up when conservative posters post lewd and awful defamatory comments like what I mentioned.

Amazes me.

We never defended homosexuality or pedophilia to begin with.

Ok before we start please understand I was not comparing Gays to Pedo's...

(06-15-2014 09:15 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Bull- It's important that you realize pedophilia is not a sexual lifestyle. No more than rape is. they are primarily acts of aggression, dominance and control against weaker people.

Funny I saw the word primarily in there... Meaning that it's not *ALWAYS* about aggression, dominance, and control (by the way there are some consenting adults who play those roles out)....

Anyway.....

Courts in more enlightened lefty nations have already started to fall back on "inter-generational relationships" and you will see it poke it's head more and more out of the woodwork.

Quote:They use sex as a means to completely dominate. No a pedophile cannot be cured. The best society can do is impose restrictions and monitoring to keep them away from potential targets and force them to suffer consequences strong enough to deter the activity.

Actually alcoholism cannot be cured in the sense most people mean. An alcoholic may successfully reframe from drinking, in that case the disease is in remission. However, the physical aspect of addiction always remains.

I would say, as someone with quite a bit of substance abuse background, that in general you are right. But not always..

The rest of your post was pretty thoughtful, thank you for the reply...

(06-15-2014 09:39 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  Ok before we start please understand I was not comparing Gays to Pedo's...

(06-15-2014 09:15 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  Bull- It's important that you realize pedophilia is not a sexual lifestyle. No more than rape is. they are primarily acts of aggression, dominance and control against weaker people.

Funny I saw the word primarily in there... Meaning that it's not *ALWAYS* about aggression, dominance, and control (by the way there are some consenting adults who play those roles out)....

Anyway.....

Courts in more enlightened lefty nations have already started to fall back on "inter-generational relationships" and you will see it poke it's head more and more out of the woodwork.

Quote:They use sex as a means to completely dominate. No a pedophile cannot be cured. The best society can do is impose restrictions and monitoring to keep them away from potential targets and force them to suffer consequences strong enough to deter the activity.

Actually alcoholism cannot be cured in the sense most people mean. An alcoholic may successfully reframe from drinking, in that case the disease is in remission. However, the physical aspect of addiction always remains.

I would say, as someone with quite a bit of substance abuse background, that in general you are right. But not always..

The rest of your post was pretty thoughtful, thank you for the reply...

I'm not sure what your reference to inter-generational relationships is about. Can you explain?
When it comes to the behavior of humans I learned a long time ago blanket statements are a mistake. There are always exceptions, thus my LIBERAL use of the word primarily. Blanket statements and over-generalizing are two huge problems in our society, as evidenced by this board.

(06-15-2014 09:48 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I'm not sure what your reference to inter-generational relationships is about. Can you explain?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/italian-cour...hv7ak.html

"Italy's highest court has overturned the conviction of a 60-year-old man for having sex with an 11-year-old girl, because the verdict failed to take into account their "amorous relationship"."

The reason that a 20 year old having sex with a 11-13 year old is a crime is because we as a society say so....

Quote:When it comes to the behavior of humans I learned a long time ago blanket statements are a mistake. There are always exceptions, thus my LIBERAL use of the word primarily. Blanket statements and over-generalizing are two huge problems in our society, as evidenced by this board.

So then i expect when the topic of gay therapy comes out you won't be saying "it does not work" and acknowledge that for some people it does work.

(06-15-2014 10:45 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-15-2014 09:48 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I'm not sure what your reference to inter-generational relationships is about. Can you explain?

http://www.smh.com.au/world/italian-cour...hv7ak.html

"Italy's highest court has overturned the conviction of a 60-year-old man for having sex with an 11-year-old girl, because the verdict failed to take into account their "amorous relationship"."

The reason that a 20 year old having sex with a 11-13 year old is a crime is because we as a society say so....

Quote:When it comes to the behavior of humans I learned a long time ago blanket statements are a mistake. There are always exceptions, thus my LIBERAL use of the word primarily. Blanket statements and over-generalizing are two huge problems in our society, as evidenced by this board.

So then i expect when the topic of gay therapy comes out you won't be saying "it does not work" and acknowledge that for some people it does work.

If I'm going to be consistent I'd have to agree there are exceptions. However, the way you couched your statement seems a little broad. I would only be comfortable saying there is always the possibility. Which does not speak to the probability, which I see as very, very slim.
I seem to recall the Italian case. I can't speak to Italian law, and don't understand the decision. It really is irrelevant to our discussion though. You are absolutely correct in that 20 year olds having sex with 11-13 year olds is a crime because our laws say it is. The presumption being any child that young is incapable of giving informed consent.

(06-16-2014 05:34 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  If I'm going to be consistent I'd have to agree there are exceptions. However, the way you couched your statement seems a little broad. I would only be comfortable saying there is always the possibility. Which does not speak to the probability, which I see as very, very slim.

Fair enough... So long as you acknowledge that for some people therapy can move them from homosexual to hetero sexual then I am more than happy to say it would be a challenging venture, and one that many many people would fail.

I would also say because of the odds of failure it's important for everyone in the process to love the person through it regardless of the outcome.

Quote:I seem to recall the Italian case. I can't speak to Italian law, and don't understand the decision. It really is irrelevant to our discussion though. You are absolutely correct in that 20 year olds having sex with 11-13 year olds is a crime because our laws say it is. The presumption being any child that young is incapable of giving informed consent.

So when we fall back on "Well because one hurts someone and the other does not" we have to view that as an artificial state of being, not a scientifically fixed one.

In other words it's somewhat dishonest to say "Pedophilia is a sickness so it can and should be cured" and "It's impossible to be be cured from homosexuality because there is nothing wrong".

When the "condition" is only a sickness because society views it as such then the argument being made against conversion therapy is pretty hollow.

If society suddenly said a 60yo can be in intimate with an 11 year old and that 11 year old can reciprocate then all the sudden pedophilia is no longer a sickness right? It does not need to be cured and it will be one of those things we call a "normal" family in the grand tapestry of lefty inclusiveness, we can even give books to pre-k kids and have special inclusive assemblies.

As I like to say... Sometimes the slope really is slippery...

(06-16-2014 11:09 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 05:34 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  If I'm going to be consistent I'd have to agree there are exceptions. However, the way you couched your statement seems a little broad. I would only be comfortable saying there is always the possibility. Which does not speak to the probability, which I see as very, very slim.

Fair enough... So long as you acknowledge that for some people therapy can move them from homosexual to hetero sexual then I am more than happy to say it would be a challenging venture, and one that many many people would fail.

I would also say because of the odds of failure it's important for everyone in the process to love the person through it regardless of the outcome.

Quote:I seem to recall the Italian case. I can't speak to Italian law, and don't understand the decision. It really is irrelevant to our discussion though. You are absolutely correct in that 20 year olds having sex with 11-13 year olds is a crime because our laws say it is. The presumption being any child that young is incapable of giving informed consent.

So when we fall back on "Well because one hurts someone and the other does not" we have to view that as an artificial state of being, not a scientifically fixed one.

In other words it's somewhat dishonest to say "Pedophilia is a sickness so it can and should be cured" and "It's impossible to be be cured from homosexuality because there is nothing wrong".

When the "condition" is only a sickness because society views it as such then the argument being made against conversion therapy is pretty hollow.

If society suddenly said a 60yo can be in intimate with an 11 year old and that 11 year old can reciprocate then all the sudden pedophilia is no longer a sickness right? It does not need to be cured and it will be one of those things we call a "normal" family in the grand tapestry of lefty inclusiveness, we can even give books to pre-k kids and have special inclusive assemblies.

As I like to say... Sometimes the slope really is slippery...

I'm afraid the example, as written is so improbable to be beyond needing to consider. It's never gonna happen. Are you using the word intimate to indicate sexual intimacy, because there are other forms of intimacy, many of which would be appropriate between a child and older adult. IOf an adult wants to have sex with a child, I see that as a grossly inappropriate violation of boundaries and trust. No 11 year old is psychologically prepared for that. I must be missing something here, cause I don't see libs or repubs ever thinking this is appropriate. Help me understand you larger point.

To the extent science can show the harmful psychological effects of pedophilia, it is a scientific fact, not a societal construct. Plus, I did not, nor would any other knowledgable person say pedophilia can be cured. It can't.

(06-16-2014 11:29 AM)Old Dominion Wrote:  I'm afraid the example, as written is so improbable to be beyond needing to consider. It's never gonna happen.

you know, except for the time where an EU members supreme court overturned a statutory rape conviction because of the amorous nature of the relationship.

It is happening that's the point... Go back to the 70's and say RvWade will mean a million abortions a year or that more AA girls would die in the womb than be born...

They would laugh and tell you "that's never going to happen"//

Quote:To the extent science can show the harmful psychological effects of pedophilia, it is a scientific fact, not a societal construct.

"harmful" is once again a matter of opinion. 40 years ago the extent science would should you the harmful effects of homosexuality were scientific fact, not a social construct.

Quote:pPlus, I did not, nor would any other knowledgeable person say pedophilia can be cured. It can't.

IOW they are born that way? It can't means 100% of the time? kind of a broad generalization there right?

(06-15-2014 05:56 PM)Old Dominion Wrote:  That doesn't sound "cured" to me. It sounds like a person who is suppressing her natural desires for religious reasons. More power to her, but she certainly is not "cured" for the obvious reason there is nothing to be cured from.

I want to jump every hot women I see, but I don't because of my religious convictions. The self discipline that comes along with faith is what holds our society together.

DR BEN CARSON FOR PRESIDENT!