(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

FBS in 2014 is essentially like calling the American League, National League, Pacific Coast League, International League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, California League, Carolina League, and Florida State League, collectively, the "Pro Baseball Subdivision", with very limited play between members of the different leagues, and then having a committee choose the four best teams at the end of September for a playoff.

Sure, FBS is kind of a nutty system. But all FBS members are absolutely not part of the same sports league in the way that the 32 NFL teams are each members of the NFL.

That's not the problem. The problem is that rigged to suppress advancement into the top tier and maintain the status quo.

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

FBS in 2014 is essentially like calling the American League, National League, Pacific Coast League, International League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, California League, Carolina League, and Florida State League, collectively, the "Pro Baseball Subdivision", with very limited play between members of the different leagues, and then having a committee choose the four best teams at the end of September for a playoff.

Sure, FBS is kind of a nutty system. But all FBS members are absolutely not part of the same sports league in the way that the 32 NFL teams are each members of the NFL.

Correct, all of FBS is not a single league. However, the P5 conferences plus the top-level teams from the American and MWC should be considered a single league.

Otherwise, Wake Forest should not be in this "major" league either, since a school like UConn has a much higher budget, more national titles, more BCS births, etc. That is just one example, but you can see my point.

(05-22-2014 02:49 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  The amazing thing about this entire system is that there are really only a handful of teams that can actually compete at the highest level and make the playoff, even within P5 conferences themselves. I am talking 15-25 teams total, and they will remain the same 15-25 teams in perpetuity.

Variety is the spice of life. At what point do even casual football fans get bored with seeing this title game every year:

SEC team X vs. Ohio St/Oregon/Wisconsin/Texas/FSU/Oklahoma/Michigan/USC/Penn St./Notre Dame.

I mean, that is basically it. That is the entire list of schools that I give a real shot, year in and year out, for the title. Sure, every once in a while a Baylor or a Clemson may actually do it, but they haven't done it yet.

Playoff will always be 2 SEC teams, 1 B1G (if it is OSU/UM or PSU), and then the B12/ACC/PAC12 fighting for that last spot. It is just so boring.

Since BYU won their MNC, there have been 18 teams win AP or Coaches MNCs. Those 18 teams + Georgia and Oregon have 82 of the 87 top 3 finishes in the AP poll. And all of them but Georgia Tech have 2 or more top 3 finishes. The only others to crack the top 3 are Virginia Tech, Utah and 3 recent ones-TCU, Oklahoma St. and Michigan St.
(to save you from looking it up-USC, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Michigan, Ohio St., Penn St., Notre Dame, Florida St., Miami, Florida, Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Georgia Tech, Washington, Colorado are the 18)

(05-22-2014 04:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

FBS in 2014 is essentially like calling the American League, National League, Pacific Coast League, International League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, California League, Carolina League, and Florida State League, collectively, the "Pro Baseball Subdivision", with very limited play between members of the different leagues, and then having a committee choose the four best teams at the end of September for a playoff.

Sure, FBS is kind of a nutty system. But all FBS members are absolutely not part of the same sports league in the way that the 32 NFL teams are each members of the NFL.

That's not the problem. The problem is that rigged to suppress advancement into the top tier and maintain the status quo.

If that's the definition of rigged, what in the world isn't rigged?

Those 20 schools also have 108 of the 145 top 5 finishes and all but Georgia Tech (only 1) have at least 3 top 5 finishes. No other school has more than 2.

(05-22-2014 04:09 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:01 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

FBS in 2014 is essentially like calling the American League, National League, Pacific Coast League, International League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, California League, Carolina League, and Florida State League, collectively, the "Pro Baseball Subdivision", with very limited play between members of the different leagues, and then having a committee choose the four best teams at the end of September for a playoff.

Sure, FBS is kind of a nutty system. But all FBS members are absolutely not part of the same sports league in the way that the 32 NFL teams are each members of the NFL.

That's not the problem. The problem is that rigged to suppress advancement into the top tier and maintain the status quo.

If that's the definition of rigged, what in the world isn't rigged?

There are lots of things rigged in the world, lots of barriers to entry, lots of price-fixing and collusion, lots of insider trading, lots of kickbacks and no-bid contracts.

Collectively, we at least make an attempt to stop them rather than hand them a crystal trophy.

(05-22-2014 04:04 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

FBS in 2014 is essentially like calling the American League, National League, Pacific Coast League, International League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, California League, Carolina League, and Florida State League, collectively, the "Pro Baseball Subdivision", with very limited play between members of the different leagues, and then having a committee choose the four best teams at the end of September for a playoff.

Sure, FBS is kind of a nutty system. But all FBS members are absolutely not part of the same sports league in the way that the 32 NFL teams are each members of the NFL.

Correct, all of FBS is not a single league. However, the P5 conferences plus the top-level teams from the American and MWC should be considered a single league.

Otherwise, Wake Forest should not be in this "major" league either, since a school like UConn has a much higher budget, more national titles, more BCS births, etc. That is just one example, but you can see my point.

You don't dislike the "P5" hierarchy, you just want to define it to put your team on the good side of it. So, pretty much what Boise State, Ohio State, Missouri, New Mexico State, BYU, and Washington State would do, though each might put the line in a different place if it was solely up to them.

Everyone wants to be in the "major league" and relegate others they look down on into the "minor league".

That is incorect.

What I would like to see (and this is just one man's opinion) is minimum standards for inclusion to the top-level of college football, and the opportunity to meet or exceed those standards for any school that so chooses to make that risky investment. Make the number whatever you want it to be, but you can't have Wake Forest playing at one level, and UConn playing at a lower level, when UConn beats Wake by every measurable imaginable.

Even within MLB, you have your yankees/red sox and you have your Royals/Astros, teams on either end of the payroll. They are still allowed to compete for the same championship.

And quite frankly, baseball is a terrible analogy, as minor league teams are part of the larger franchise anyway. The Greenville Road Warriors don't have aspirations for the majors, they are just the farm team for the Red Sox.

(05-22-2014 04:25 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  you can't have Wake Forest playing at one level, and UConn playing at a lower level, when UConn beats Wake by every measurable imaginable.

In football? By what measurable(s) do you think UConn is significantly ahead in football?

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

bull****. It's a single league with an extremely arbitrary distinction between "P5" and "G5" for the sole purpose of concentrating power within a select group of programs and excluding everyone else. Take away this barrier and the sport would survive just fine (along with being fairer).

If the NFL decided to stop allowing the AFC to make the playoffs or play for a championship, would it magically stop being a single league?

I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

Heck...even though I don't care about BYU. Their stats dwarf WF also and they were just told they are still a G5 school even though they have the stats used by Power conferences. I had at first agreed that the Power in Power conferences was fanbase, stadium size and ticket revenue. But apparently, that isn't the case...which is why its so upsetting. Because, even if BSU filled 100k stadiums they still would be consider a G5 school.

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

time spent at the highest level of CFB
WF: since the early days of CFB
Uconn: since the 21st century

Historic Rivalries with Power schools
WF: Give or take 4-10
Uconn: 0

/thread

(05-22-2014 05:12 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

time spent at the highest level of CFB
WF: since the early days of CFB
Uconn: since the 21st century

Historic Rivalries with Power schools
WF: Give or take 4-10
Uconn: 0

/thread

Depends on who you talk to. I'll bet most of those Wake Forest "traditional" P5 rivals would drop Wake Forest in an instant if they could get---say a regular "rivalry" game with someone else who is more attractive on the schedule.

(05-22-2014 04:37 PM)BoiseStateOfMind Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 03:27 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  What other sports league is designed so that before the first day of practice over half of its members are eliminated from playing for a championship, even if they win every game on their schedule?

FBS is not a single league like the NFL or NBA.

bull****. It's a single league with an extremely arbitrary distinction between "P5" and "G5" for the sole purpose of concentrating power within a select group of programs and excluding everyone else. Take away this barrier and the sport would survive just fine (along with being fairer).

If the NFL decided to stop allowing the AFC to make the playoffs or play for a championship, would it magically stop being a single league?

The inevitable eight game play off can solve it .
I am sure the deck will still be stacked against the G5 conferences. First round being home games with G5 having to be ranked five or higher. Probably playing at number one then the next highest ranked.

(05-22-2014 05:29 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:12 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

time spent at the highest level of CFB
WF: since the early days of CFB
Uconn: since the 21st century

Historic Rivalries with Power schools
WF: Give or take 4-10
Uconn: 0

/thread

Depends on who you talk to. I'll bet most of those Wake Forest "traditional" P5 rivals would drop Wake Forest in an instant if they could get---say a regular "rivalry" game with someone else who is more attractive on the schedule.

using your logic texas would of loved to drop baylor or tcu in favor of somone more attractive to their schedule such as UH.

but i guess that "depends on who you talk to"

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only

Because the only reasons fans give a rat's azz about any of this is money (not that us fans get any of it) and perceived status. The reasons for the differences in money and perceived status are 85-95% football and historical "facts on the ground".

More importantly, it's useless to argue that School X "belongs" by comparing it to one of the weakest athletic departments in the top tier.

Think of it this way: Suppose that you are a hotshot young math professor, and you want to join the Harvard faculty because, well, it's Harvard. You get your shot at an interview, and your presentation focuses on John Smith, one old-line professor in the Harvard math department whose production is less than stellar, and you compare yourself to him.

Is the hiring committee going to say, "Wow, Professor Stang, you're better than Professor Smith, so welcome to the Harvard faculty"? No. They're going to think, "Don't tell us about Smith! He wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for him having tenure for 30 years and the building being named after his father-in-law. You better be a lot better than Smith if you want to get hired here today."

In other words, even if it's "unfair" that Smith still has tenure at Harvard, that doesn't mean that everyone who's a little better than Smith can walk in and join the faculty today. It only means that Smith probably wouldn't be there if they could get away with retiring him.

(05-22-2014 05:58 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:29 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 05:12 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only, since much more goes into realignment decisions, but here are a few overall examples. I'm an attorney, and while I pride myself on research, I don't have the time to do it all right now.

Total Revenue
Wake $48M
UConn $63M

Avg Football Attendance 2013
Wake 28,414
UConn 30,932

Mens/Women's BB titles
Wake 0
UConn 11

BCS Bowls
Wake 1,
UConn 1

Interesting article also.

Can Wake Forest Remain Competitive in Football Article

Listen, I have nothing against Wake Forest, and I am not pro-UConn either. I just think there should be a system for inclusion, and if you meet those standards, you should be in, and if you don't you should be out. That is it. Simple. Easy. Fair. If it means you have to have a $60M budget and average 50k in attendance for so many years, that is fine. But whatever the line is, it muct be drawn and nbot grandfathered in as the P5 would have it.

time spent at the highest level of CFB
WF: since the early days of CFB
Uconn: since the 21st century

Historic Rivalries with Power schools
WF: Give or take 4-10
Uconn: 0

/thread

Depends on who you talk to. I'll bet most of those Wake Forest "traditional" P5 rivals would drop Wake Forest in an instant if they could get---say a regular "rivalry" game with someone else who is more attractive on the schedule.

using your logic texas would of loved to drop baylor or tcu in favor of somone more attractive to their schedule such as UH.

but i guess that "depends on who you talk to"

How do you think Houston, Rice, and SMU became a "have nots"? The power schools that were our SWC "rivals", when given a choice, preferred to play schools they deemed more attractive. All I am saying is Wake Forest would be the kind of school that would be left behind should the power schools of their conference ever reach a similar crossroads.

(05-22-2014 06:11 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only

Because the only reasons fans give a rat's azz about any of this is money (not that us fans get any of it) and perceived status. The reasons for the differences in money and perceived status are 85-95% football and historical "facts on the ground".

More importantly, it's useless to argue that School X "belongs" by comparing it to one of the weakest athletic departments in the top tier.

Think of it this way: Suppose that you are a hotshot young math professor, and you want to join the Harvard faculty because, well, it's Harvard. You get your shot at an interview, and your presentation focuses on John Smith, one old-line professor in the Harvard math department whose production is less than stellar, and you compare yourself to him.

Is the hiring committee going to say, "Wow, Professor Stang, you're better than Professor Smith, so welcome to the Harvard faculty"? No. They're going to think, "Don't tell us about Smith! He wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for him having tenure for 30 years and the building being named after his father-in-law. You better be a lot better than Smith if you want to get hired here today."

In other words, even if it's "unfair" that Smith still has tenure at Harvard, that doesn't mean that everyone who's a little better than Smith can walk in and join the faculty today. It only means that Smith probably wouldn't be there if they could get away with retiring him.

and that's the key issue here.

g5 fans think as long as they are better than 1 p5 school they should be in. the reality of the situation is that you have to be at the very least lower-middle to middle tier to get an invite not bottom tier.

(05-22-2014 06:17 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 06:11 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(05-22-2014 04:52 PM)Carolina Stang Wrote:  I do not understand why you would limit the measurables to football stats only

Because the only reasons fans give a rat's azz about any of this is money (not that us fans get any of it) and perceived status. The reasons for the differences in money and perceived status are 85-95% football and historical "facts on the ground".

More importantly, it's useless to argue that School X "belongs" by comparing it to one of the weakest athletic departments in the top tier.

Think of it this way: Suppose that you are a hotshot young math professor, and you want to join the Harvard faculty because, well, it's Harvard. You get your shot at an interview, and your presentation focuses on John Smith, one old-line professor in the Harvard math department whose production is less than stellar, and you compare yourself to him.

Is the hiring committee going to say, "Wow, Professor Stang, you're better than Professor Smith, so welcome to the Harvard faculty"? No. They're going to think, "Don't tell us about Smith! He wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for him having tenure for 30 years and the building being named after his father-in-law. You better be a lot better than Smith if you want to get hired here today."

In other words, even if it's "unfair" that Smith still has tenure at Harvard, that doesn't mean that everyone who's a little better than Smith can walk in and join the faculty today. It only means that Smith probably wouldn't be there if they could get away with retiring him.

and that's the key issue here.

g5 fans think as long as they are better than 1 p5 school they should be in. the reality of the situation is that you have to be at the very least lower-middle to middle tier to get an invite not bottom tier.

Oh no. We understand that much better than you think. Its the lower third of the P5 that doesn't get it. Really, I think the real point is that the top third of the P5 IS the P5. Put most of the decent G5 schools in a major conference, and within 10 years--they would be just as competitive as the vast majority of the conference. Only the programs like Texas, Alabama, Michigan, Ohio St, USC, etc. are really "power programs". The rest are just bulked up G5 programs.