(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 01:39 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 11:41 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  So the answer would be what? Free college education for everyone? Hey...I have no problem with whatever free stuff we want to give out. Just find the way to pay for it...cause...it ain't really free.

Are you sure? It was free in my case. The State of Arkansas has gotten decades worth of increased taxes out of me FAR beyond what they ever spent on helping me attend college.

I was converted from negative producer to positive producer with a few relatively small grants.

I understand your point and I have no problem with helping those in need...but...it still ain't free. Someone paid for the grants. They got money trees in Arkansas? If so...I need to move there asap.

Excuse this hyperbole..but..Anyone can convert from a negative producer to a positive one without stealing from others. It happens every second through hard work and desire.

It turned out to be better than free. The State has made its money back on my education years ago.

I went from just above minimum wage paying almost no state taxes to one of the higher tax brackets. Multiply that difference by over two decades.

I was non-traditional so if it had not been for college my income would not have progressed much.

Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

I've always been curious, why are student loan debts never erased during bankruptcy? Is there a law that prohibits it?

(05-01-2014 04:52 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 01:39 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Are you sure? It was free in my case. The State of Arkansas has gotten decades worth of increased taxes out of me FAR beyond what they ever spent on helping me attend college.

I was converted from negative producer to positive producer with a few relatively small grants.

I understand your point and I have no problem with helping those in need...but...it still ain't free. Someone paid for the grants. They got money trees in Arkansas? If so...I need to move there asap.

Excuse this hyperbole..but..Anyone can convert from a negative producer to a positive one without stealing from others. It happens every second through hard work and desire.

It turned out to be better than free. The State has made its money back on my education years ago.

I went from just above minimum wage paying almost no state taxes to one of the higher tax brackets. Multiply that difference by over two decades.

I was non-traditional so if it had not been for college my income would not have progressed much.

Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

(05-01-2014 05:36 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I've always been curious, why are student loan debts never erased during bankruptcy? Is there a law that prohibits it?

I think so. The practice of defaulting on these loans got so bad that legislation was enacted.

(05-01-2014 05:36 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I've always been curious, why are student loan debts never erased during bankruptcy? Is there a law that prohibits it?

You can still get out from under them but its extremely difficult.

(05-01-2014 11:43 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We all agree that a college education should be encouraged. Personally, I think a cap on total repayment is fair. A cap of 175% of the principle is fair.

I certainly do not agree with that statement. It's ludicrous for several reasons. This is the result of encouraging a college education:

1. More people losing earnings potential/ fewer people skilled in necessary trades
2. Ease of requirements to accommodate so many people.
3. Debasement of the degree's meaning
4. The gross indoctrination instead of actual education
5. Overcrowding of institutions

(05-01-2014 08:51 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 11:43 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We all agree that a college education should be encouraged. Personally, I think a cap on total repayment is fair. A cap of 175% of the principle is fair.

I certainly do not agree with that statement. It's ludicrous for several reasons. This is the result of encouraging a college education:

1. More people losing earnings potential/ fewer people skilled in necessary trades
2. Ease of requirements to accommodate so many people.
3. Debasement of the degree's meaning
4. The gross indoctrination instead of actual education
5. Overcrowding of institutions

Simple solution: stop funding students who want to major in something that's reinforces a partisan worldview. Or at the very least, make them study the subject at a cheaper school.

(05-01-2014 09:02 PM)dmacfour Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 08:51 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 11:43 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We all agree that a college education should be encouraged. Personally, I think a cap on total repayment is fair. A cap of 175% of the principle is fair.

I certainly do not agree with that statement. It's ludicrous for several reasons. This is the result of encouraging a college education:

1. More people losing earnings potential/ fewer people skilled in necessary trades
2. Ease of requirements to accommodate so many people.
3. Debasement of the degree's meaning
4. The gross indoctrination instead of actual education
5. Overcrowding of institutions

Simple solution: stop funding students who want to major in something that's reinforces a partisan worldview. Or at the very least, make them study the subject at a cheaper school.

Simple? Pfft. How's that going to be evaluated and enforced?

And best case you solved the problem w/ #4 only.

(05-01-2014 08:51 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 11:43 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  We all agree that a college education should be encouraged. Personally, I think a cap on total repayment is fair. A cap of 175% of the principle is fair.

I certainly do not agree with that statement. It's ludicrous for several reasons. This is the result of encouraging a college education:

1. More people losing earnings potential/ fewer people skilled in necessary trades
2. Ease of requirements to accommodate so many people.
3. Debasement of the degree's meaning
4. The gross indoctrination instead of actual education
5. Overcrowding of institutions

I think each one of those concerns can be handled in turn.

1. That's society doing that, not federal loans. Society is telling people to get a college degree or else you'll be a 'lowly' plumber, or mechanic. Ask yourself, have you ever considered putting down your education and learning a trade? That's a ****** materialistic society pushing that. Sure, loans facilitate to an extent but I think we all agree there should be a choice to take on debt to finance school. I'm merely suggesting that number as a way to avoid crushing perpetual debt which people who want to become counselors and other relatively low paid well educated people take on.

2. I agree with that one. The education bubble is going to pop. Still, debt slaves don't help that situation.

3. Some, not all. An engineering degree is as valuable today as ever. A philosophy degree hasn't been a worthwhile endeavor since the 1600s.

4. Again, some, not all.

5. Schools have just expanded to meet demand. That bubble will end soon enough and half our schools will be down on enrollment quite significantly.

Ultimately, my point was to make borrowing painful enough to require a level of caution and purpose but not crushing enough to mean perpetual debt servicing. Change the number to 200% or 250%. The point is what I just mentioned.

The whole thing is a cluster-**** but ending large numbers of people's lives with debt isn't good for anybody.

(05-01-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:52 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:09 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I understand your point and I have no problem with helping those in need...but...it still ain't free. Someone paid for the grants. They got money trees in Arkansas? If so...I need to move there asap.

Excuse this hyperbole..but..Anyone can convert from a negative producer to a positive one without stealing from others. It happens every second through hard work and desire.

It turned out to be better than free. The State has made its money back on my education years ago.

I went from just above minimum wage paying almost no state taxes to one of the higher tax brackets. Multiply that difference by over two decades.

I was non-traditional so if it had not been for college my income would not have progressed much.

Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

As I stated above, the end my justify the means. I must point out though that I see wording above like... "the Fed helped me"....."the State made it's money back"...ect. I just hope we understand who's money we are talking about. It almost seems like some folks think our money belongs to the government.

Just for clarity....Any redistribution of wealth is a social welfare program. I am not making a judgement on the merits of any of them specifically....just pointing out that fact. As long as we understand that...fine.

(05-02-2014 07:40 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:52 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:23 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  It turned out to be better than free. The State has made its money back on my education years ago.

I went from just above minimum wage paying almost no state taxes to one of the higher tax brackets. Multiply that difference by over two decades.

I was non-traditional so if it had not been for college my income would not have progressed much.

Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

As I stated above, the end my justify the means. I must point out though that I see wording above like... "the Fed helped me"....."the State made it's money back"...ect. I just hope we understand who's money we are talking about. It almost seems like some folks think our money belongs to the government.

Just for clarity....Any redistribution of wealth is a social welfare program. I am not making a judgement on the merits of any of them specifically....just pointing out that fact. As long as we understand that...fine.

Highways are social welfare. The Defense Dept. Is social welfare. Non-taxpayers get the benefit of those as well. Government is by definition a collective enterprise.

What we are talking about is what generates a return on investment on that and what brings value and what doesn't.

(05-01-2014 06:23 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 05:36 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  I've always been curious, why are student loan debts never erased during bankruptcy? Is there a law that prohibits it?

I think so. The practice of defaulting on these loans got so bad that legislation was enacted.

Yes, you had folks like lawyers, doctors, etc maying huge money afterschool and just not paying back thier student debt. They didn't worry about the credit hit since they were making some muck $$$.

Back in the day when I was a loan officer, I denied a doctor a loan because he did file bankruptcy. It was plain to see why he did it. Dude was loaded and a great credit except for that bankruptcy. Pissed him off, but I did it anyway, and all my coworkers agreed with me.

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

Oh too funny that this came from you of all people.

You're semi literate, and you can't do math either. Just how much in taxes have they made from you? Seriously.

The ROI from any investment in you has been negative, since you bring down the performance of students.

(05-02-2014 07:47 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 07:40 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:52 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

As I stated above, the end my justify the means. I must point out though that I see wording above like... "the Fed helped me"....."the State made it's money back"...ect. I just hope we understand who's money we are talking about. It almost seems like some folks think our money belongs to the government.

Just for clarity....Any redistribution of wealth is a social welfare program. I am not making a judgement on the merits of any of them specifically....just pointing out that fact. As long as we understand that...fine.

Highways are social welfare. The Defense Dept. Is social welfare. Non-taxpayers get the benefit of those as well. Government is by definition a collective enterprise.

What we are talking about is what generates a return on investment on that and what brings value and what doesn't.

So highways and defense are now considered welfare by the Left. Thanks for the insight. This explains a lot and nothing more needs to be explained. I understand where we are in this conversation.

I would love for it to be true that the majority of the loot the government brings in and spends has a good ROI. Unfortunately...One would have a hell of a time making that case. Evidently some folks believe it is a valid endeavor to pay hundreds of thousands of middle class bureaucrats to waste billions upon billions of dollars of peoples money that they could have used to save or spend productively in their lives on their own.

(05-02-2014 08:57 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:34 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Exactly. I was in the same boat. The feds helped me pay for my college but they are getting a massive return on investment because I am paying much more in taxes than I would have otherwise.

It's amazing that many don't see it that way.

Oh too funny that this came from you of all people.

You're semi literate, and you can't do math either. Just how much in taxes have they made from you? Seriously.

The ROI from any investment in you has been negative, since you bring down the performance of students.

The fact is...The VAST amount of government spending has ZERO ROI. Let's remember what "investment" means in government lingo.

(05-02-2014 09:25 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 07:47 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 07:40 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 04:52 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  The Feds did not help you. The fruits of others labors helped you. You could have done the same thing without it... using loans. If we are trying to somehow justify theft? It is not working. Again...I have no problem with helping people with college expenses. Just don't act like what is received was free. Someone toiled for those funds that were taken from them and given to someone else. The end may justify the means..but..the means is still theft. Lets at least admit it. It seems as if we think this money just appears out of thin air. It does not.

You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

As I stated above, the end my justify the means. I must point out though that I see wording above like... "the Fed helped me"....."the State made it's money back"...ect. I just hope we understand who's money we are talking about. It almost seems like some folks think our money belongs to the government.

Just for clarity....Any redistribution of wealth is a social welfare program. I am not making a judgement on the merits of any of them specifically....just pointing out that fact. As long as we understand that...fine.

Highways are social welfare. The Defense Dept. Is social welfare. Non-taxpayers get the benefit of those as well. Government is by definition a collective enterprise.

What we are talking about is what generates a return on investment on that and what brings value and what doesn't.

So highways and defense are now considered welfare by the Left. Thanks for the insight. This explains a lot and nothing more needs to be explained. I understand where we are in this conversation.

I would love for it to be true that the majority of the loot the government brings in and spends has a good ROI. Unfortunately...One would have a hell of a time making that case. Evidently some folks believe it is a valid endeavor to pay hundreds of thousands of middle class bureaucrats to waste billions upon billions of dollars of peoples money that they could have used to save or spend productively in their lives on their own.

I don't speak for the Left since I'm a conservo-libertarian more along Reagan/Arkansas Rockefeller lines.

My comment about highways and defense was making fun of your position that higher education is some sort of giveaway.

I'm sorry you didn't get the joke and knee-jerked into having to assume I was a liberal.

You might also not jump to criticizing ROI on all government spending when I was narrowly talking about higher education which definitely does have a positive ROI.

(05-02-2014 09:45 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 09:25 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 07:47 AM)ark30inf Wrote:  

(05-02-2014 07:40 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(05-01-2014 06:20 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  You have a rather near-sighted view. There is a reason government is in the higher education business. It isn't to give away money or provide charity. It is to make our economy competitive and to get a return on investment.

The simplistic view that higher ed = welfare is not accurate.

As I stated above, the end my justify the means. I must point out though that I see wording above like... "the Fed helped me"....."the State made it's money back"...ect. I just hope we understand who's money we are talking about. It almost seems like some folks think our money belongs to the government.

Just for clarity....Any redistribution of wealth is a social welfare program. I am not making a judgement on the merits of any of them specifically....just pointing out that fact. As long as we understand that...fine.

Highways are social welfare. The Defense Dept. Is social welfare. Non-taxpayers get the benefit of those as well. Government is by definition a collective enterprise.

What we are talking about is what generates a return on investment on that and what brings value and what doesn't.

So highways and defense are now considered welfare by the Left. Thanks for the insight. This explains a lot and nothing more needs to be explained. I understand where we are in this conversation.

I would love for it to be true that the majority of the loot the government brings in and spends has a good ROI. Unfortunately...One would have a hell of a time making that case. Evidently some folks believe it is a valid endeavor to pay hundreds of thousands of middle class bureaucrats to waste billions upon billions of dollars of peoples money that they could have used to save or spend productively in their lives on their own.

I don't speak for the Left since I'm a conservo-libertarian more along Reagan/Arkansas Rockefeller lines.

My comment about highways and defense was making fun of your position that higher education is some sort of giveaway.

I'm sorry you didn't get the joke and knee-jerked into having to assume I was a liberal.

You might also not jump to criticizing ROI on all government spending when I was narrowly talking about higher education which definitely does have a positive ROI.

Sorry for painting you with a big brush. Not usually my style if you follow me for very long here.

For clarity...I have no problem with funding higher ed. I think though that you are going to have one hell of a time convincing the board regulars here that the majority of college grads are giving a ROI on the money they received in grants...or that the trillions of dollars of debt that many of them now have racked up is worthwhile. The entire higher ed marketplace is totally fcked up right now. We all know the horror stories from our family and friends. At this point...a schitload of higher ed....is a fcking racket.

Apparently, the student loan debt crisis may be a tad overblown. Not in the amount of student debt, but in what each student must pay back.

The Reality of Student Loan Debt is Different from the Cliches

Snippit

Quote:The deeply indebted college graduate has become a stock character in the national conversation: the art history major with $50,000 in debt, the underemployed barista with $75,000, the struggling poet with $100,000.

The anecdotes have created the impression that such high levels of student debt are typical. But they're not. They are outliers, and they're warping our understanding of bigger economic problems.


In fact, the share of income that young adults are devoting to loan repayment has remained fairly steady over the last two decades, according to data the Brookings Institutions is releasing on Tuesday. Only 7 percent of young-adult households with education debt have $50,000 or more of it. By contrast, 58 percent of such households have less than $10,000 in debt, and an additional 18 percent have between $10,000 and $20,000.

It's waste .....

......unless some of it's going in my pocket!

It's a big bubble, just like the housing bubble. It's a scam making administrators and facility rich. And we have to pay for it.

"Part of the answer lies in escalating salaries, especially for academic “divas,” the marquee names recruited at great expense to bring in the customers ... er, students. Part of the answer lies in institutional metastasis: the expansion of bureaucracy, like any bureaucracy."

http://www.c-span.org/video/?317170-1/bo...new-school

When the bubble burst 1/2 of our State Universities will be underwater. I see "maybe" 30 elite schools doing well, only accepting the brightest students and only offering useful degrees. A few religious based schools like Notre Dame will do well. The rest will have to evolve into more of a community college/tech school model. And tuition for them will have to be 1/3 what it is today.

Since this is a website for college sports, how will this affect college sports? 1/2 the state schools playing at the FBS level will not be able to afford it. Conferences with membership spread out across the country will be a thing of the past.