http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-econ...s-20140411

Some of us have been suggesting this for 20 years.

One of Germany's Mittelstands was acquired by the Chinese last week. Even centuries old business models fall prey to the Chinese yuan.

You know I stand for it.

It would have to be implemented at a lower level than the federal government though. As a state I would establish a wage below minimum to pay them but strictly limit hours, and monitor the actual training. Any company that sets up a program would receive a tax incentive per student. Once in the program, every student will attend class 2 days a week and work 3 days or vice versa.

(04-14-2014 12:52 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  You know I stand for it.

It would have to be implemented at a lower level than the federal government though. As a state I would establish a wage below minimum to pay them but strictly limit hours, and monitor the actual training. Any company that sets up a program would receive a tax incentive per student. Once in the program, every student will attend class 2 days a week and work 3 days or vice versa.

Good ideas for discussion.

Oh, and let me throw in this as well since it mentions teens and jobs (or lack thereof)
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentar...z2yt0fZoCZ

As a teenager I worked under such a program. It was called the summer work program and it taught me a lot. It taught me that I better graduate from school and join the service if I didn't want to stay a janitor. Even though I've done so much janitorial work in the Air Force and as a civilian firefighter at least it paid more than actually being one.

We already have these sort of things (or at least we did when I was younger)... co-ops, work programs, FFAs, 4-H's, Scouting associations, internships...

There was a religious group in NC that had to close down their teaching
young people a trade by the state. Ridiculous. But some were young.

Yes.

(04-15-2014 05:51 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Yes.

Absolutely.

Couldn't agree more. Common Core is going to try and drag the best students down to mediocrity, what we need to do is make the worst students more productive. I think the biggest problem we have is that there's this mindset that you're a loser if you don't go to college, when in reality there are many trades which pay well and help lead to honest lives.

(04-15-2014 07:50 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Couldn't agree more. Common Core is going to try and drag the best students down to mediocrity, what we need to do is make the worst students more productive. I think the biggest problem we have is that there's this mindset that you're a loser if you don't go to college, when in reality there are many trades which pay well and help lead to honest lives.

Absolutely! The left shows its true colors when it denigrates the hard work done both by skilled and unskilled laborers. The push to get people into college comes from an elitist, misanthropic attitude; and not coincidentally, it is counter-productive, from economic, technological and societal perspectives.

No, it may help some poor kids, but this is supposed to be a free country. Also limits opportunities for those that don't need a mandated apprenticeship to learn a trade. It also delays adulthood. We already have a birthrate problem in this country, but America is a fertile crescent compared to the birthrate problem the Germans have. We need to rebuild an economy where young adults can be productive and take adult responsibility, not forced labor. There is already a volunteer military that any non-criminal can join and "learn a trade". The problem is, we aren't producing anything and there is nowhere to use that trade when they get out save the small number that manage to get in with a Lockheed Martin or Northop Grumman.

It only works if young people want to learn. Some just want to exist and make trouble. Tie it to a drug testing program. Weed out the lackeys.

(04-15-2014 08:15 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  It only works if young people want to learn. Some just want to exist and make trouble. Tie it to a drug testing program. Weed out the lackeys.

If young people want to learn, they will. They don't want to learn, because, frankly, selling drugs and collecting welfare is more appealing and lucrative than making $12 an hour fitting pipes all day. Waiting tables at Abblebees and living in the parents' basement is also more appealing and lucrative. Our economic problems run much deeper than young people wanting to learn.

(04-15-2014 08:13 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  No, it may help some poor kids, but this is supposed to be a free country.

What does that have to do w/ anything?

Quote: Also limits opportunities for those that don't need a mandated apprenticeship to learn a trade.

How so?

Quote: It also delays adulthood.

How so? And how so compared w/ college (and grad school, etc)

Quote: We need to rebuild an economy where young adults can be productive and take adult responsibility, not forced labor.

Assuming this is a return of indentured servitude is your straw man complaint. No one is promoting such a thing. Yet you complain about that then push for it literally:

Quote:There is already a volunteer military that any non-criminal can join and "learn a trade".

Quote: The problem is, we aren't producing anything and there is nowhere to use that trade when they get out save the small number that manage to get in with a Lockheed Martin or Northop Grumman.

All those hire a veteran programs disagree.

Quote:What does that have to do w/ anything?

It is forced labor. The government is requiring you to do something that might be against your will. That is the opposite of freedom.

Quote: Also limits opportunities for those that don't need a mandated apprenticeship to learn a trade.

How so?

Let's say I graduate from high school and want to open or take over the family car repair garage. In Germany, you can't do that until you put in your time.

Quote: It also delays adulthood.

How so? And how so compared w/ college (and grad school, etc)

College, grad school etc. are optional. Some people just want to work, get married, have kids etc. This would delay that option as they would be at the mercy of the government for a period of time. Some people already have opportunities and don't need the government to provide them.

Quote: We need to rebuild an economy where young adults can be productive and take adult responsibility, not forced labor.

Assuming this is a return of indentured servitude is your straw man complaint. No one is promoting such a thing. Yet you complain about that then push for it literally:

It isn't a straw man. The title of the thread is should the US adopt a German style apprenticeship. I don't know what you are arguing... I am arguining against Germany. The German system is forced labor and there is no opt out. We had an exchange student from Germany in my high school. He wasn't able to start his life until he was 20 due to government requirements.

Quote:There is already a volunteer military that any non-criminal can join and "learn a trade".

Quote: The problem is, we aren't producing anything and there is nowhere to use that trade when they get out save the small number that manage to get in with a Lockheed Martin or Northop Grumman.

All those hire a veteran programs disagree.
[/quote]

(04-15-2014 08:49 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:What does that have to do w/ anything?

It is forced labor. The government is requiring you to do something that might be against your will. That is the opposite of freedom.

Quote: Also limits opportunities for those that don't need a mandated apprenticeship to learn a trade.

How so?

Let's say I graduate from high school and want to open or take over the family car repair garage. In Germany, you can't do that until you put in your time.

Quote: It also delays adulthood.

How so? And how so compared w/ college (and grad school, etc)

College, grad school etc. are optional. Some people just want to work, get married, have kids etc. This would delay that option as they would be at the mercy of the government for a period of time. Some people already have opportunities and don't need the government to provide them.

Quote: We need to rebuild an economy where young adults can be productive and take adult responsibility, not forced labor.

Assuming this is a return of indentured servitude is your straw man complaint. No one is promoting such a thing. Yet you complain about that then push for it literally:

It isn't a straw man. The title of the thread is should the US adopt a German style apprenticeship. I don't know what you are arguing... I am arguining against Germany. The German system is forced labor and there is no opt out. We had an exchange student from Germany in my high school. He wasn't able to start his life until he was 20 due to government requirements.

Quote:There is already a volunteer military that any non-criminal can join and "learn a trade".

Quote: The problem is, we aren't producing anything and there is nowhere to use that trade when they get out save the small number that manage to get in with a Lockheed Martin or Northop Grumman.

All those hire a veteran programs disagree.

[/quote]

Alright, how about a French or Swiss style? They resemble co ops more than long licensing plans. It would also be implemented with our own laws, not just a straight port from Germany to here. Even in Germany, you don't have to get into the apprenticeship program. They can test out of it if they don't want it.

I don't see it delaying adulthood more than attending college for 5 years. It would allow and child to become an adult between 18 and 20 instead of 22, 23, or 24 in a lot of cases.

(04-15-2014 11:32 AM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 08:49 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

Quote:What does that have to do w/ anything?

It is forced labor. The government is requiring you to do something that might be against your will. That is the opposite of freedom.

Quote: Also limits opportunities for those that don't need a mandated apprenticeship to learn a trade.

How so?

Let's say I graduate from high school and want to open or take over the family car repair garage. In Germany, you can't do that until you put in your time.

Quote: It also delays adulthood.

How so? And how so compared w/ college (and grad school, etc)

College, grad school etc. are optional. Some people just want to work, get married, have kids etc. This would delay that option as they would be at the mercy of the government for a period of time. Some people already have opportunities and don't need the government to provide them.

Quote: We need to rebuild an economy where young adults can be productive and take adult responsibility, not forced labor.

Assuming this is a return of indentured servitude is your straw man complaint. No one is promoting such a thing. Yet you complain about that then push for it literally:

It isn't a straw man. The title of the thread is should the US adopt a German style apprenticeship. I don't know what you are arguing... I am arguining against Germany. The German system is forced labor and there is no opt out. We had an exchange student from Germany in my high school. He wasn't able to start his life until he was 20 due to government requirements.

Quote:There is already a volunteer military that any non-criminal can join and "learn a trade".

Quote: The problem is, we aren't producing anything and there is nowhere to use that trade when they get out save the small number that manage to get in with a Lockheed Martin or Northop Grumman.

All those hire a veteran programs disagree.

Alright, how about a French or Swiss style? They resemble co ops more than long licensing plans. It would also be implemented with our own laws, not just a straight port from Germany to here. Even in Germany, you don't have to get into the apprenticeship program. They can test out of it if they don't want it.

I don't see it delaying adulthood more than attending college for 5 years. It would allow and child to become an adult between 18 and 20 instead of 22, 23, or 24 in a lot of cases.
[/quote]

I don't know anything about the French or the Swiss. If it is voluntary, maybe, but we already have that in the military.

(04-15-2014 08:32 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 08:15 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  It only works if young people want to learn. Some just want to exist and make trouble. Tie it to a drug testing program. Weed out the lackeys.

If young people want to learn, they will. They don't want to learn, because, frankly, selling drugs and collecting welfare is more appealing and lucrative than making $12 an hour fitting pipes all day. Waiting tables at Abblebees and living in the parents' basement is also more appealing and lucrative. Our economic problems run much deeper than young people wanting to learn.

You don't do apprenticeships for $12 pipe fitting jobs. The kind of trade jobs that require an apprenticeship arrangement generally pay very good salaries.

The machinists at my dad's company make $45-$70,000/yr. They can't find workers with the skills required to run the machines any more. The average age of machinists in that place was around 58 when I worked there and that was 6 years ago. They haven't really had much success bringing in new guys with the skills required to replace the old guys. Most of their new hires have been immigrants from Vietnam because they were the only ones that had the necessary skills to run the machines.

(04-15-2014 12:27 PM)Niner National Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 08:32 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(04-15-2014 08:15 AM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  It only works if young people want to learn. Some just want to exist and make trouble. Tie it to a drug testing program. Weed out the lackeys.

If young people want to learn, they will. They don't want to learn, because, frankly, selling drugs and collecting welfare is more appealing and lucrative than making $12 an hour fitting pipes all day. Waiting tables at Abblebees and living in the parents' basement is also more appealing and lucrative. Our economic problems run much deeper than young people wanting to learn.

You don't do apprenticeships for $12 pipe fitting jobs. The kind of trade jobs that require an apprenticeship arrangement generally pay very good salaries.

The machinists at my dad's company make $45-$70,000/yr. They can't find workers with the skills required to run the machines any more. The average age of machinists in that place was around 58 when I worked there and that was 6 years ago. They haven't really had much success bringing in new guys with the skills required to replace the old guys. Most of their new hires have been immigrants from Vietnam because they were the only ones that had the necessary skills to run the machines.

I don't disagree, but those jobs are few and far between these days, which goes to my point. Training 1,000,000 people for 1,000 machinist jobs isn't going to help anyone. It pays $45-$70,000 /yr strictly because of the fact that they can't find the workers. If the workers were of abundance, it would pay more like $12/hour. Supply and demand. Problem is that wages for the most part have gone nowhere in the last 20 years and the depreciation of our currency guarantees that that wage gets you nowhere. I'm not even old and I remember when $12/hr was enough to make a decent living.