(03-20-2014 08:33 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 08:37 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 07:54 PM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  Read the 2 links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Confe...conference

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journ...rence.aspx

If this had come to fruition it would be one of the best overall conferences around.

North
Penn State
BC
Cincy
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
VT
WVU

South
ECU
FSU
Louisville
Memphis
Miami
South Carolina
Southern Miss
Tulane

Do you know what's weirdest about that whole Metro Conference expansion idea? It's that I have followed all of this stuff closely since the late 70s and I had never heard anything at all about that idea until I read that one article about it in Sport Magazine or the Sporting News - I can't remember which. And even then, I always took it as more of a concept than an actual plan. Otherwise, it barely made any waves whatsoever. I'll tell you this much: the idea never gained any traction in any of the PA media. Like absolutely none whatsoever. Maybe it was too ahead of its time but I don't think that concept came nearly as close to coming to fruition as the Paterno League did.

I do recall the Super Metro proposal being floated around 1990, AFTER Penn State had accepted a bid to the B1G. Note, the Wikipedia article cited does not include Penn State in the group. It was one of the alternatives for the Eastern Independents to address the loss of Penn St., and for Metro members and Miami to find a football conference home. It was never an alternative to the Paterno League. I have no idea how seriously SU, BC, Pitt or Miami ever considered it, but it was considered. I suspect Florida State's move to the ACC and SCar's move to the SEC pretty much killed the potential for this proposal. The formation of the Big East Football Conference, with Miami effectively replacing Penn State as flagship was a perfect solution at the time for the schools involved.

It had seemed to me at the time that inviting Miami to what was otherwise a northeast conference undermined the rationale for that league. It appeared that the only reason for including them was to secure a place in the Bowl Coalition, a predecessor of the BCS, which was no doubt already being quietly discussed at the time. To a slightly lesser extent, this was true also of FSU's invitation to the ACC. Without those two moves, the power conferences at the time (which included neither the ACC or the Big East) likely would have simply kept the major bowls for themselves.

(03-20-2014 07:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 10:28 PM)john01992 Wrote:  remember that this is the northeast ==> a region that was completely hostile to letting landgrant schools truly prosper.

politics ultimately played the biggest role in the lack of a true northeast conference. the region was set up to fail long before the paterno conference was being debated.

Yup. Everybody was awful to everyone below them, academically speaking, where it concerned athletics. To validate Villanova's block of Penn State comes right back around on them where it concerns the likes of Temple and St. Joe's. All three of those are guilty for stiff-arming Drexel.

Villanova pre-Big East was virtually the same school as St. Joe's...the difference was the zipcode. One was scuzzy West Philly, and the other the heart of the Main Line. "Vanillanova." Villanova got ahead of them athletically, and has evaded them ever since.

Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

I've always loved the St. Joe's program ever since I attended a game at the Garden years ago in which they were playing. Despite having a good team, they were getting pummeled that night. With a minute or two left in the game, a contingent of St. Joe's students/fans sitting behind the basket stood up and sang "The Hawk Will Never Die." I thought it was incredible to do that in defeat. I've loved and respected the program ever since.

(03-20-2014 10:56 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 07:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 10:28 PM)john01992 Wrote:  remember that this is the northeast ==> a region that was completely hostile to letting landgrant schools truly prosper.

politics ultimately played the biggest role in the lack of a true northeast conference. the region was set up to fail long before the paterno conference was being debated.

Yup. Everybody was awful to everyone below them, academically speaking, where it concerned athletics. To validate Villanova's block of Penn State comes right back around on them where it concerns the likes of Temple and St. Joe's. All three of those are guilty for stiff-arming Drexel.

Villanova pre-Big East was virtually the same school as St. Joe's...the difference was the zipcode. One was scuzzy West Philly, and the other the heart of the Main Line. "Vanillanova." Villanova got ahead of them athletically, and has evaded them ever since.

Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

I've always loved the St. Joe's program ever since I attended a game at the Garden years ago in which they were playing. Despite having a good team, they were getting pummeled that night. With a minute or two left in the game, a contingent of St. Joe's students/fans sitting behind the basket stood up and sang "The Hawk Will Never Die." I thought it was incredible to do that in defeat. I've loved and respected the program ever since.

I do miss the excitement of the Big Five games at the Palestra. Tobacco Road had nothing on those guys. Shame those rivalries fractured the way they did.

(03-20-2014 10:45 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 08:33 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 08:37 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 07:54 PM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  Read the 2 links below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Confe...conference

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journ...rence.aspx

If this had come to fruition it would be one of the best overall conferences around.

North
Penn State
BC
Cincy
Pitt
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
VT
WVU

South
ECU
FSU
Louisville
Memphis
Miami
South Carolina
Southern Miss
Tulane

Do you know what's weirdest about that whole Metro Conference expansion idea? It's that I have followed all of this stuff closely since the late 70s and I had never heard anything at all about that idea until I read that one article about it in Sport Magazine or the Sporting News - I can't remember which. And even then, I always took it as more of a concept than an actual plan. Otherwise, it barely made any waves whatsoever. I'll tell you this much: the idea never gained any traction in any of the PA media. Like absolutely none whatsoever. Maybe it was too ahead of its time but I don't think that concept came nearly as close to coming to fruition as the Paterno League did.

I do recall the Super Metro proposal being floated around 1990, AFTER Penn State had accepted a bid to the B1G. Note, the Wikipedia article cited does not include Penn State in the group. It was one of the alternatives for the Eastern Independents to address the loss of Penn St., and for Metro members and Miami to find a football conference home. It was never an alternative to the Paterno League. I have no idea how seriously SU, BC, Pitt or Miami ever considered it, but it was considered. I suspect Florida State's move to the ACC and SCar's move to the SEC pretty much killed the potential for this proposal. The formation of the Big East Football Conference, with Miami effectively replacing Penn State as flagship was a perfect solution at the time for the schools involved.

It had seemed to me at the time that inviting Miami to what was otherwise a northeast conference undermined the rationale for that league. It appeared that the only reason for including them was to secure a place in the Bowl Coalition, a predecessor of the BCS, which was no doubt already being quietly discussed at the time. To a slightly lesser extent, this was true also of FSU's invitation to the ACC. Without those two moves, the power conferences at the time (which included neither the ACC or the Big East) likely would have simply kept the major bowls for themselves.

I recall that Big East Commissioner Tranghese was instrumental in the formation of he Bowl Coalition, primarily because he saw the need for the conference champion to have an autobid to a major bowl

(03-20-2014 10:43 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  But I've wondered what's stopping them today? Imagine the potential of the SUNY schools if paired with Temple, UConn and UMass. That's a big population base to start with.

Because most people aren't obsessed with College Sports.

Plenty of people are obsessed with Old State U or Sylania Tech football/basketball, plenty of people are obsessed with college football, college basketball, with the SEC, etc. But very few people sit around and think about the potential of alternative college sports configuration.

"What if the SUNYs, UMass, UConn and Temple put together a conference and people supported those schools the way the Big Ten and SEC states support their state schools?" is not a thought that occurs to a whole lot of people. Certainly not enough to move the political mountains required to turn SUNY-Stony Brook or Buffalo or Binghamton or Albany or CUNY (yes, non-northeasterners, City University of New York is separate from SUNY, and until the 1960s was a perfectly good school) into Penn State or UConn.

In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs or even football programs. NYU supposedly was one of Rutgers' rivals in football. Hell, St. John's played football until a decade ago. That's one school that missed the boat.

I could imagine an eastern collegiate football conference comprised of the following schools:

(1) UMass
(2) UConn
(3) Rhode Island
(4) SUNY - Albany
(5) SUNY - Stony Brook
(6) NYU
(7) Fordham
(8) Temple
(9) Duquesne
(10) Delaware or Towson

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs

Open admissions destroyed CCNY as a quality institution. It's a four-year community college. There's no resource base to build a serious athletic program.

NYU at the other extreme, is doing great academically and financially without Division I athletics.

NYU could fund Fordham-level athletics if they wanted to, but they'd get Fordham-level results.

The point you're missing is that northeasterners in general and New Yorkers in particular aren't sitting around wishing they had a Big State U to root for. If you're into college basketball and want a local big-time team, that's what St John's is. Most St John's fans aren't alumni or children of alumni, (although with an enrollment of 20,000 or so, there are a LOT of SJU alumni) they're NYC basketball fans.

(03-20-2014 03:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 10:56 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 07:37 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(03-19-2014 10:28 PM)john01992 Wrote:  remember that this is the northeast ==> a region that was completely hostile to letting landgrant schools truly prosper.

politics ultimately played the biggest role in the lack of a true northeast conference. the region was set up to fail long before the paterno conference was being debated.

Yup. Everybody was awful to everyone below them, academically speaking, where it concerned athletics. To validate Villanova's block of Penn State comes right back around on them where it concerns the likes of Temple and St. Joe's. All three of those are guilty for stiff-arming Drexel.

Villanova pre-Big East was virtually the same school as St. Joe's...the difference was the zipcode. One was scuzzy West Philly, and the other the heart of the Main Line. "Vanillanova." Villanova got ahead of them athletically, and has evaded them ever since.

Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

I've always loved the St. Joe's program ever since I attended a game at the Garden years ago in which they were playing. Despite having a good team, they were getting pummeled that night. With a minute or two left in the game, a contingent of St. Joe's students/fans sitting behind the basket stood up and sang "The Hawk Will Never Die." I thought it was incredible to do that in defeat. I've loved and respected the program ever since.

I do miss the excitement of the Big Five games at the Palestra. Tobacco Road had nothing on those guys. Shame those rivalries fractured the way they did.

They don't play all the games at the Palestra but Villanova/St. Joe's is still as intense as ever. I wouldn't say the Big Five rivalries are fractured.

(03-20-2014 06:58 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs

Open admissions destroyed CCNY as a quality institution. It's a four-year community college. There's no resource base to build a serious athletic program.

NYU at the other extreme, is doing great academically and financially without Division I athletics.

NYU could fund Fordham-level athletics if they wanted to, but they'd get Fordham-level results.

The point you're missing is that northeasterners in general and New Yorkers in particular aren't sitting around wishing they had a Big State U to root for. If you're into college basketball and want a local big-time team, that's what St John's is. Most St John's fans aren't alumni or children of alumni, (although with an enrollment of 20,000 or so, there are a LOT of SJU alumni) they're NYC basketball fans.

NYU is not "fordham level" athletics. if NYU announced they were going d1 tomorrow every northern conference would be lining up begging to take them and this includes both the b10 & acc.

research university that is #20 in arwu, located in lower Manhattan, with 51k students nearly half of which are post grads.

the b10/acc would gladly take a chance on this school and not lose a second of sleep doing so because the payoff is well worth the risk.

(03-20-2014 06:58 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs

Open admissions destroyed CCNY as a quality institution. It's a four-year community college. There's no resource base to build a serious athletic program.

NYU at the other extreme, is doing great academically and financially without Division I athletics.

NYU could fund Fordham-level athletics if they wanted to, but they'd get Fordham-level results.

The point you're missing is that northeasterners in general and New Yorkers in particular aren't sitting around wishing they had a Big State U to root for. If you're into college basketball and want a local big-time team, that's what St John's is. Most St John's fans aren't alumni or children of alumni, (although with an enrollment of 20,000 or so, there are a LOT of SJU alumni) they're NYC basketball fans.

John, your comments about CCNY are out of date. Athletics are not in their future and academics are not where they were 50-75 years ago, but . . .

Open enrollment ended 15 years ago. Admissions standards are way up. They now have dorms on campus. Their Sophie Davis joint Med School program is one of the most innovative in the country. You don't find any of that at a community college.

Calling City College a 4 year community college is both insulting and factually wrong.

CUNY has improved greatly but there won't be a CUNY flagship research/athletic program any time soon. NYC pols (many of whom are Latinos in Latinos-heavy districts) worry more about access to college for first-generation college students, than excellence and research. They've stated as much in the Assembly whenever state and SUNY leaders push tuition measures and SUNY research. They say colleges should not pursue research and a few even push for a return to tuition-free CUNY and SUNY. Not like there would be strong student interest anyway. CCNY had its day, and Brooklyn College was D-1 for a period, but over 99% of CUNY students are commuters.

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Certainly not enough to move the political mountains required to turn SUNY-Stony Brook or Buffalo or Binghamton or Albany or CUNY...into Penn State or UConn.

In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

True for most of Downstate, but SUNY is a political force elsewhere. UB and SBU are still building athletically but are already powerful AAU's who spend the most in lobbyists in Albany, each with their own strong state advocates (SBU with Sen. Lavalle and Sen. Skelos, UB with Sen. Grisanti and Sen. Ranzenhofer). Each were the schools who worked the SUNYNY2020 bill through the Legislature.

UB was already a Major College team in the 60's, playing Temple, BC, UMass yearly. But the sting of major campus war protests lead to FB being cut. Who knows what could have been of UB football's trajectory as an Eastern Independent if that had not occurred.

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs or even football programs. NYU supposedly was one of Rutgers' rivals in football. Hell, St. John's played football until a decade ago. That's one school that missed the boat.

I could imagine an eastern collegiate football conference comprised of the following schools:

(1) UMass
(2) UConn
(3) Rhode Island
(4) SUNY - Albany
(5) SUNY - Stony Brook
(6) NYU
(7) Fordham
(8) Temple
(9) Duquesne
(10) Delaware or Towson

It's really too late for most schools in the Northeast to make a move up to major sports at this point. The costs are just too great; particularly for schools in the NY/NJ area. Privates would have to finance without bonding or tax payer support. Most of the state schools are in states that are essentially broke.
CUNY was once the greatest basketball power EVER. It is the only school to ever win the NCAA and NIT tournaments in the same season. Unfortunately a point shaving scandal then rocked the program. In an effort to clean it up, CUNY dropped all big time sports. I don't remember if NYU was later pulled into a point shaving scandal. Regardless, it made an Ivy League like decision to de-emphasize sports.
Fordham (also once a major sports power) did the same. It is only recently that it has decided to re-emphasize sports and offer scholarships. It has the luxury of having deep pockets, booster support and available land on its campus in the Bronx to allow for scholarships and stadium renovation/expansion.
Temple, UMass and the SUNY schools have recently begun to make some moves. They have all been aided at least as much by conference realignment as fan/booster support. I hope they all (and Rutgers) make the most of their new found situations and invest in their programs.
Duquesne fits the profile of the BE perfectly. It should have been on the BE short list for expansion after the split happened. From what I hear, its athletic department is a complete basket case so it was never given serious consideration.
UDel and Towson have been getting mention recently as possible MAC targets. I don't know how serious that all is. I've been to both for football games. The on field product is MAC level.

(03-20-2014 09:33 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:58 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs

Open admissions destroyed CCNY as a quality institution. It's a four-year community college. There's no resource base to build a serious athletic program.

NYU at the other extreme, is doing great academically and financially without Division I athletics.

NYU could fund Fordham-level athletics if they wanted to, but they'd get Fordham-level results.

The point you're missing is that northeasterners in general and New Yorkers in particular aren't sitting around wishing they had a Big State U to root for. If you're into college basketball and want a local big-time team, that's what St John's is. Most St John's fans aren't alumni or children of alumni, (although with an enrollment of 20,000 or so, there are a LOT of SJU alumni) they're NYC basketball fans.

NYU is not "fordham level" athletics. if NYU announced they were going d1 tomorrow every northern conference would be lining up begging to take them and this includes both the b10 & acc.

research university that is #20 in arwu, located in lower Manhattan, with 51k students nearly half of which are post grads.

the b10/acc would gladly take a chance on this school and not lose a second of sleep doing so because the payoff is well worth the risk.

I agree they wouldn't lose any sleep, because this would only happen in their dreams.

(03-20-2014 10:56 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

Oh, timing was everything for the formation of the Big East and its Philadelphia contribution, but I think certain schools would have still favored the Main Line institution over the West Philly one regardless of one streaking more recently than another.

Even still, while timing might explain Villanova's place in the conference, does it have to explain while others in Philly continue to be stiff-armed or viewed unworthy when there's plenty of crap in the conference that should be cut off?

(03-21-2014 11:11 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 09:33 PM)john01992 Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:58 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 06:22 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 04:49 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  In most states, the state schools are a political force. In NEw York, not so much. A lot of people go to private colleges (Catholic and otherwise), out-of-state state schools, etc. Political power brokers are more likely to be from Columbia or Cornell or Fordham than from Binghamton or SUNY-Albany.

Both City College (public) and NYU (private) once had decent basketball programs. Not sure what's keeping each from re-establishing competitive basketball programs

Open admissions destroyed CCNY as a quality institution. It's a four-year community college. There's no resource base to build a serious athletic program.

NYU at the other extreme, is doing great academically and financially without Division I athletics.

NYU could fund Fordham-level athletics if they wanted to, but they'd get Fordham-level results.

The point you're missing is that northeasterners in general and New Yorkers in particular aren't sitting around wishing they had a Big State U to root for. If you're into college basketball and want a local big-time team, that's what St John's is. Most St John's fans aren't alumni or children of alumni, (although with an enrollment of 20,000 or so, there are a LOT of SJU alumni) they're NYC basketball fans.

NYU is not "fordham level" athletics. if NYU announced they were going d1 tomorrow every northern conference would be lining up begging to take them and this includes both the b10 & acc.

research university that is #20 in arwu, located in lower Manhattan, with 51k students nearly half of which are post grads.

the b10/acc would gladly take a chance on this school and not lose a second of sleep doing so because the payoff is well worth the risk.

I agree they wouldn't lose any sleep, because this would only happen in their dreams.

yeah the b10/acc has as much a chance of poaching NYU from the UAA as they do poaching harvard from the Ivy League.

but the point still stands........no conference would lose a second of sleep taking a gamble on NYU.

Remember though there was a land grant university conference in the Northeast - Yankee Conference.
UMass
UConn
Maine
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Vermont

(03-21-2014 01:08 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 10:56 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

Oh, timing was everything for the formation of the Big East and its Philadelphia contribution, but I think certain schools would have still favored the Main Line institution over the West Philly one regardless of one streaking more recently than another.

Even still, while timing might explain Villanova's place in the conference, does it have to explain while others in Philly continue to be stiff-armed or viewed unworthy when there's plenty of crap in the conference that should be cut off?

There seems to be a pro league type of philosophy that there will be only one franchise in each market. I don't think it's a matter of otherPhilly schools being "unworthy" as much as it is a belief that the league will be best with only one school in each market. It's not just a bias in Philly, but it will likely keep Dayton out of the Big East and it probably helped to keep UConn out of the ACC.

I don't agree with that philosophy. I believe that college sports thrives with great rivalries which are often AT&T heir best when the schools are close to each other, i.e. Duke-North Carolina, Alabalma-Auburn, the great rivalries of the Big 5, etc. But the situation is what it is.

(03-21-2014 06:00 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-21-2014 01:08 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  

(03-20-2014 10:56 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  Sometimes timing in life is everything. Villanova's 1971 Final Four was more recent than st. Joe's. Both teams had a dip in the '70's but Villanova had recovered and posted a couple of big seasons leading up to the discussions forming the Big East while St. Joe's was just beginning to come out of their decline in 1978-79. Football had probably helped to get Villanova into the Eastern 8 while St. Joe's was still in the old ECC, which gave Villanova a higher profile at the time. Didn't Villanova have a larger enrollment too? That certainly helped.

Oh, timing was everything for the formation of the Big East and its Philadelphia contribution, but I think certain schools would have still favored the Main Line institution over the West Philly one regardless of one streaking more recently than another.

Even still, while timing might explain Villanova's place in the conference, does it have to explain while others in Philly continue to be stiff-armed or viewed unworthy when there's plenty of crap in the conference that should be cut off?

There seems to be a pro league type of philosophy that there will be only one franchise in each market. I don't think it's a matter of otherPhilly schools being "unworthy" as much as it is a belief that the league will be best with only one school in each market. It's not just a bias in Philly, but it will likely keep Dayton out of the Big East and it probably helped to keep UConn out of the ACC.

I don't agree with that philosophy. I believe that college sports thrives with great rivalries which are often AT&T heir best when the schools are close to each other, i.e. Duke-North Carolina, Alabalma-Auburn, the great rivalries of the Big 5, etc. But the situation is what it is.

Agreed.

If the Big 10 had only 1 team in Indiana, Michigan, and Illinois, then Purdue, Illinois, and Northwestern would probably have joined with UC, Louisville, and the Big 8 a long time ago. This would have turned the whole Midwest into a region with 2 dominant conferences, which is the exact opposite of what the Big 10 wants.

The problem in the Northeast nowadays is that there are no longer enough quality high school football teams to support that an entire conference of top-level D-1 teams. The upper Midwest (Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, and even Illinois) is starting to experience the same problems.

The thing everyone is missing here is it wouldn't have mattered if Paterno got his eastern conference. Brice Jordan decided his legacy as the President of Penn State would be to get Penn State into the Big 10. An eastern conference would not have stopped this. Every University President wants to leave a legacy. That was Brice Jordan's.

(03-24-2014 10:40 AM)Shannon Panther Wrote:  The thing everyone is missing here is it wouldn't have mattered if Paterno got his eastern conference. Brice Jordan decided his legacy as the President of Penn State would be to get Penn State into the Big 10. An eastern conference would not have stopped this. Every University President wants to leave a legacy. That was Brice Jordan's.

But the Eastern LEague would have been part of PAterno's legacy. In a Paterno vs Brice Jordan power struggle, Brice Jordan doesn't win.