(12-05-2013 08:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  This post is going to be deeply unpopular.

I think Nelson was a very good and very well meaning man. I also think that he was able to have a deep impact on those around him.

I don't think we can just ignore the fact that what he did devastated his nation, crippled the economy, destroyed the healthcare system, has resulted in inflamed racial tensions, saw a mass exodus of people, destabilized the judicial and political systems to the point that the nation is amongst the more corrupt halfway developed nations in the world, and that much of the nation was rendered almost without a government.

I don't think apartheid was right, certainly not, but I think it's wrong of us to pat ourselves on the back and celebrate the man's achievements, notice I didn't say not to celebrate the goodness of the man himself, which have crippled the country and will hinder it for decades, if not more. Change should have been brought about in a very different way.

A lot of folks think, "what a great man and what an achievement" while conveniently forgetting the state of affairs in the country. It's disingenuous and shows that we really don't give a crap about South Africa, or its people.

Many South Africans would deeply disagree with your assessment of Mandela. And I'm talking about white and even Afrikaner South Africans too. If you compare South Africa to any other African country, Mandela's tenure as President stands out even more, not less.

He certainly didn't devastate the South Africa experienced by the vast majority of South Africans. One of my friends is a South African doctor. I asked him about the conditions. He said, it was bad for a while, but now he'd rather practice in Port Elizabeth than in Texas. He went back there. And works for the government health service.

There are people who left South Africa in the period immediately surrounding home rule that did leave. Those emigration rates have stabilized.

Are you aware of the economic situation at the transition to home rule for the majority? The ethnic/tribal tensions? Quite frankly its amazing that Mandela was able to hold things together as well as he did.

South Africa does have a crime problem (although its murder rate is half of what it once was) and it will take generations to sort through the income inequality.

But I think that enough time has passed (and more importantly enough Africans have a stake in the system) that the danger of a Zimbabwe or Zairian scenario is much less.

The big issue that faced Mandela was this. How do you give the African population enough of a stake in the system so that they don't delve into racial pogroms while at the same time providing enough continuity so that the whites don't leave? The results haven't been perfect for either side, but it was, in my opinion, a pretty good balancing act.

At some point, the ANC will split and one side will probably appeal to race based politics. I don't see that being successful. And that is a very good legacy of Mandela. Regardless of the problems, people believe in the viability of a future multiracial South Africa. And lets face facts, the Democratic Alliance, while popular in the Cape Province, is unlikely to take national power anytime soon, so we are looking at one faction or another of the ANC for a while.

And you know what's even more amazing...the ANC was not just a liberal economic regime prior to taking power but an overtly socialist one (real socialist - not what you guys call socialism). South Africa is a vibrant capitalist society. And that is part of Nelson Mandela's legacy too. You come to power on the backs of people like Joe Slovo and you still can keep a market based economy.

(12-05-2013 08:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  This post is going to be deeply unpopular.

I think Nelson was a very good and very well meaning man. I also think that he was able to have a deep impact on those around him.

I don't think we can just ignore the fact that what he did devastated his nation, crippled the economy, destroyed the healthcare system, has resulted in inflamed racial tensions, saw a mass exodus of people, destabilized the judicial and political systems to the point that the nation is amongst the more corrupt halfway developed nations in the world, and that much of the nation was rendered almost without a government.

I don't think apartheid was right, certainly not, but I think it's wrong of us to pat ourselves on the back and celebrate the man's achievements, notice I didn't say not to celebrate the goodness of the man himself, which have crippled the country and will hinder it for decades, if not more. Change should have been brought about in a very different way.

A lot of folks think, "what a great man and what an achievement" while conveniently forgetting the state of affairs in the country. It's disingenuous and shows that we really don't give a crap about South Africa, or its people.

Bingo. He wrecked that country and if I hear another mediot refer to him as an "African-American" today I'm going to scream. He was kind of a chosen martyr for rotting in jail but he had no business being in charge.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

(12-05-2013 09:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  And you know what's even more amazing...the ANC was not just a liberal economic regime prior to taking power but an overtly socialist one (real socialist - not what you guys call socialism). South Africa is a vibrant capitalist society. And that is part of Nelson Mandela's legacy too. You come to power on the backs of people like Joe Slovo and you still can keep a market based economy.

This is the true greatness of Madiba.

South Africa is not out of the woods yet, but you cannot travel there without getting the sense that people really are trying to make it work.

(12-05-2013 09:52 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 08:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  This post is going to be deeply unpopular.

I think Nelson was a very good and very well meaning man. I also think that he was able to have a deep impact on those around him.

I don't think we can just ignore the fact that what he did devastated his nation, crippled the economy, destroyed the healthcare system, has resulted in inflamed racial tensions, saw a mass exodus of people, destabilized the judicial and political systems to the point that the nation is amongst the more corrupt halfway developed nations in the world, and that much of the nation was rendered almost without a government.

I don't think apartheid was right, certainly not, but I think it's wrong of us to pat ourselves on the back and celebrate the man's achievements, notice I didn't say not to celebrate the goodness of the man himself, which have crippled the country and will hinder it for decades, if not more. Change should have been brought about in a very different way.

A lot of folks think, "what a great man and what an achievement" while conveniently forgetting the state of affairs in the country. It's disingenuous and shows that we really don't give a crap about South Africa, or its people.

Bingo. He wrecked that country and if I hear another mediot refer to him as an "African-American" today I'm going to scream. He was kind of a chosen martyr for rotting in jail but he had no business being in charge.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Which other way could it have gone?

Has anyone called him African-American? For real?

(12-05-2013 08:10 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  This post is going to be deeply unpopular.

I think Nelson was a very good and very well meaning man. I also think that he was able to have a deep impact on those around him.

I don't think we can just ignore the fact that what he did devastated his nation, crippled the economy, destroyed the healthcare system, has resulted in inflamed racial tensions, saw a mass exodus of people, destabilized the judicial and political systems to the point that the nation is amongst the more corrupt halfway developed nations in the world, and that much of the nation was rendered almost without a government.

I don't think apartheid was right, certainly not, but I think it's wrong of us to pat ourselves on the back and celebrate the man's achievements, notice I didn't say not to celebrate the goodness of the man himself, which have crippled the country and will hinder it for decades, if not more. Change should have been brought about in a very different way.

A lot of folks think, "what a great man and what an achievement" while conveniently forgetting the state of affairs in the country. It's disingenuous and shows that we really don't give a crap about South Africa, or its people.

I'm actually agreeing with you on this in part, HOD...(economically or in the terms of law, I do not think Mandela was that good for the country, but that's a personal opinion); but I will say this, that Mandela managed to keep a race-war from erupting into a major catastrophe. That being said, I think some of his policies were disasterous for the country of South Africa overall.

And as I've seen a few articles, now that Mandela's not even around, that say the white Afrikaans farmers are giving serious consideration to getting the hell out of the country for fear of what is coming.

(12-05-2013 09:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Which other way could it have gone?

Has anyone called him African-American? For real?

Was your experience in Cape Town similar to what I described above?

Some of you guys show a tremendous lack of understanding of the reality in South Africa in 1994 who are criticizing Mandela's leadership of the economy.

Trying out your Ludwig von Mises stuff out on South Africa would have likely created a revolution.

(12-05-2013 10:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 09:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Which other way could it have gone?

Has anyone called him African-American? For real?

Was your experience in Cape Town similar to what I described above?

I'm not really used to paying attention to things like that. Even though the signs of the past were everywhere, people seemed to be trying hard to mend those fences. After the rugby match, if there was any tension that I didn't notice, it was gone with a few drinks.

Off-topic: I would really recommend anyone pick up a ball and play in one of the rugby-crazy countries.

(12-05-2013 10:39 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 10:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 09:57 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  Which other way could it have gone?
Has anyone called him African-American? For real?

Was your experience in Cape Town similar to what I described above?

I'm not really used to paying attention to things like that. Even though the signs of the past were everywhere, people seemed to be trying hard to mend those fences. After the rugby match, if there was any tension that I didn't notice, it was gone with a few drinks.
Off-topic: I would really recommend anyone pick up a ball and play in one of the rugby-crazy countries.

I'd agree with all of that.

Invictus was a great movie. I often wondered if Mandela was really that forgiving and wise or was it pure Hollywood. If half of what they portrayed is the truth, Mandela was the Ghandi of our times.

(12-05-2013 11:02 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Invictus was a great movie. I often wondered if Mandela was really that forgiving and wise or was it pure Hollywood. If half of what they portrayed is the truth, Mandela was the Ghandi of our times.

In an odd twist, Gandhi rose to prominence in South Africa, where he organized the first protests against race based laws.

Gandhi returned to India as a famous defender of the rights of Indians because of his work in South Africa.

(12-05-2013 11:20 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(12-05-2013 11:02 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Invictus was a great movie. I often wondered if Mandela was really that forgiving and wise or was it pure Hollywood. If half of what they portrayed is the truth, Mandela was the Ghandi of our times.

In an odd twist, Gandhi rose to prominence in South Africa, where he organized the first protests against race based laws.
Gandhi returned to India as a famous defender of the rights of Indians because of his work in South Africa.

I did not realize that until visiting Durban.

As for Invictus, my conversations with a lot of South Africans suggest that it's a pretty accurate portrayal. And what I know about the context leading up to that period is consistent with that.

By the way, had a beer with the Matt Damon character (Francois Pienaar) in Pretoria. That was pretty cool.

Nice to see a thread where most everyone is agreeable and pretty positive. I've always been amazed that South Africa's white population is less than 10 percent (slightly higher for adults but that's the overall average). Hopefully the country continues to move in the right direction. Lord knows Africa needs at least one or two stable countries.

RIP.

Why am I seeing this in the news and Google and everywhere else? Why didn't obama give a half a sh*t enough to speak about the victims of all of these U/S natural disasters? He was on his toes freaking beating off to get on TV the instant he heard Mandela died...

Mourn the man if you must, but try to focus on your second choice of people over here in the nation you're supposed to be leading.

(12-06-2013 09:16 AM)LSU04_08 Wrote:  Why am I seeing this in the news and Google and everywhere else? Why didn't obama give a half a sh*t enough to speak about the victims of all of these U/S natural disasters? He was on his toes freaking beating off to get on TV the instant he heard Mandela died...

Mourn the man if you must, but try to focus on your second choice of people over here in the nation you're supposed to be leading.

Nelson Mandela was a special man. Compared to the average American, he did unthinkable things in fighting apartheid and giving South Africa a (relatively) democratic government.

I love reading comments from all the South Africa experts.

The media tells me Mandela was great man. I'll take there word for it. He certainly is much loved.

It was very obvious from Dear Leaders remarks..that Mandela is his number one hero. He linked him with Lincoln and Ghandi.

It is very strange to know our Presidents biggest hero is a foreignor/marxist/socialist. very strange in deed.

The Big O has got to Go.

(12-06-2013 07:46 AM)Fort Bend Owl Wrote:  Nice to see a thread where most everyone is agreeable and pretty positive. I've always been amazed that South Africa's white population is less than 10 percent (slightly higher for adults but that's the overall average). Hopefully the country continues to move in the right direction. Lord knows Africa needs at least one or two stable countries.

RIP.

The thing is, it's moving in the wrong direction.

You want a stable, less corrupt, better place to be in sub-saharan Africa, try Gabon.

I have been so worried about Gabone.

F-ing autocorrect man.

I used to really like my ipad, until iOs7

I have family in Equatorial Guinea and Gabone. EG is a dive but Gabon is much nicer than South Africa.