(11-27-2013 09:02 AM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  Few people seem to understand that the underlying culture of a conference and a university need to be close.

Money, THIS, geography,....,....., academics.

There's a reason the ACC is derisively called the All Carolina Conference. Needless to say, those four schools plus UVA, UNC's twin brother, are big fish in a small pond and are quite content with that arrangement.

(11-27-2013 12:13 AM)PhiladelphiaVT Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 04:13 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 04:01 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 03:53 PM)lumberpack4 Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 03:49 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  That's no problem at all. Any other conference would love to take UNC and Duke as a package.

I think you miss the point - you can't get just UNC/Duke without NC State. You can't get UNC without UVa, and you can't, get VT without UVa. Those five have to be in sync otherwise the politics fail.

Today, sure. 10-15 years from now, who knows, things change. Colorado said no to the Pac in 1994 because the people then in charge convinced just enough regents to vote no. Those people were long gone by 2010 when CU finally said yes to the Pac. TAMU could not have gotten away with moving to the SEC in 1994, but in 2011 they had an Aggie governor and a legislature that wasn't going to be back in session for more than a year, and the Big 12 didn't fall apart when they left, so their window of opportunity opened.

I doubt there is another set of schools more politically intertwined and incestuously interbred than VT/UVa/UNC/NCSU/Duke and even WF. The close proximity of the schools lead to the alumni and influential folks all having relatives, spouses, and children at 3, 4 and sometimes 5 of the schools. No one gets to leave without the other's saying it's okay and no, some can't leave and leave the others in a bad situation. Even the state political connections between NC and Va greater than most folks realize.

Don't underestimate the 5 going to bat for WF.

I've often wondered about Wake Forest's place in all the speculation regarding conference realignment. As a founding member of the ACC, Wake has been playing sports with UNC/NCSU/Duke/UVA for sixty years so I have a hard time believing those four schools would leave the Deacs high and dry in a decimated ACC.

Wake may be a small school but it is wealthy and academically prestigious thus I imagine the school has quite a few alumni who are politically well-connected in Raleigh. Somehow I think Wake Forest could cause quite a stink (a la Baylor) if it felt it was going to be thrown under the bus during the next round of conference realignment

Rice, TCU and SMU were playing with Texas, Texas A&M and Baylor for 80 years. The finances didn't work anymore. If the finances don't work, no one will hang with Wake Forest. The smallest non-military schools in FBS and I-A for decades have been Rice, TCU, Wake Forest and Tulsa. SMU was often the 5th smallest.

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 12:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:54 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  I sense the jealousy now. Don't be a hater.

GT and Miami are academic institutions. They want to be in a conference that pushes that. Unfortunately that's not the SEC so try again. FSU and CLemson will never be in the SEC. They know it. FSU had a chance a long time ago and turned it down

Miami and GT don't want to be in the SEC?

... because they are too good academically? Miami ranks #47 in US News, U. of Florida ranks #49. That's a difference?

Here are the facts: If the SEC had invited Miami, FSU, Clemson, and GT last year, ALL would have accepted. And the ACC would have been dead as a P5 conference. Sorry about that, but the ACC owes its existence as a major conference to SEC indifference.

You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 12:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:54 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:44 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  Clemson and FSU could have gone to the Big 12.

I didn't mention the Big 12. I mentioned the SEC. Clemson and FSU would have jumped at SEC invitations. Miami and GT would have, too.

Anyone with a modicum of college athletics cultural knowledge knows the ACC is a monstrosity, a sprawling frankenstein that sold its soul for football more than 20 years ago. And the thing is, it still is relatively lousy at football. It's BCS record attests to that.

I sense the jealousy now. Don't be a hater.

GT and Miami are academic institutions. They want to be in a conference that pushes that. Unfortunately that's not the SEC so try again. FSU and CLemson will never be in the SEC. They know it. FSU had a chance a long time ago and turned it down

Miami and GT don't want to be in the SEC?

... because they are too good academically? Miami ranks #47 in US News, U. of Florida ranks #49. That's a difference?

Here are the facts: If the SEC had invited Miami, FSU, Clemson, and GT last year, ALL would have accepted. And the ACC would have been dead as a P5 conference. Sorry about that, but the ACC owes its existence as a major conference to SEC indifference.

You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

I think the same is true with Georgia Tech. They both much prefer a viable ACC. They also probably feel they can compete better. GT doesn't have an easy academic road for athletes. That's why they play the triple option. They can compete with different type of athletes.

(11-27-2013 01:38 PM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote:  There's a reason the ACC is derisively called the All Carolina Conference. Needless to say, those four schools plus UVA, UNC's twin brother, are big fish in a small pond and are quite content with that arrangement.

Really?

I thought it stood for "Almost Competitive Conference."

(11-27-2013 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 12:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Miami and GT don't want to be in the SEC?

... because they are too good academically? Miami ranks #47 in US News, U. of Florida ranks #49. That's a difference?

Here are the facts: If the SEC had invited Miami, FSU, Clemson, and GT last year, ALL would have accepted. And the ACC would have been dead as a P5 conference. Sorry about that, but the ACC owes its existence as a major conference to SEC indifference.

You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

I'm not so sure Clemson would have. They value the history they've had in the ACC.

(11-27-2013 02:27 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

I'm not so sure Clemson would have. They value the history they've had in the ACC.

I don't think there is the slightest doubt their fans would jump at the chance. Now that doesn't mean the administration would. The two closest schools to Clemson are Georgia and South Carolina. That UGA rivalry still has steam despite not playing very often since the SEC went to 12.

(11-27-2013 03:51 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 02:27 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

I'm not so sure Clemson would have. They value the history they've had in the ACC.

I don't think there is the slightest doubt their fans would jump at the chance. Now that doesn't mean the administration would. The two closest schools to Clemson are Georgia and South Carolina. That UGA rivalry still has steam despite not playing very often since the SEC went to 12.

That's what I mean. Fans don't decide which conference the administration does. I don't think Clemson's administration would jump to the SEC.

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 12:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:54 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:52 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I didn't mention the Big 12. I mentioned the SEC. Clemson and FSU would have jumped at SEC invitations. Miami and GT would have, too.

Anyone with a modicum of college athletics cultural knowledge knows the ACC is a monstrosity, a sprawling frankenstein that sold its soul for football more than 20 years ago. And the thing is, it still is relatively lousy at football. It's BCS record attests to that.

I sense the jealousy now. Don't be a hater.

GT and Miami are academic institutions. They want to be in a conference that pushes that. Unfortunately that's not the SEC so try again. FSU and CLemson will never be in the SEC. They know it. FSU had a chance a long time ago and turned it down

Miami and GT don't want to be in the SEC?

... because they are too good academically? Miami ranks #47 in US News, U. of Florida ranks #49. That's a difference?

Here are the facts: If the SEC had invited Miami, FSU, Clemson, and GT last year, ALL would have accepted. And the ACC would have been dead as a P5 conference. Sorry about that, but the ACC owes its existence as a major conference to SEC indifference.

You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

Your statements reveal a 100% certainty that you have no idea what Miami thinks, and therefore I can conclude you have little idea about anything that you post.

(11-27-2013 02:27 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

I'm not so sure Clemson would have. They value the history they've had in the ACC.

Clemson and FSU would have joined the SEC faster than an ACC fan could pull the thumb from their mouth.

(11-27-2013 04:05 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:12 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 12:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-26-2013 10:54 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  I sense the jealousy now. Don't be a hater.

GT and Miami are academic institutions. They want to be in a conference that pushes that. Unfortunately that's not the SEC so try again. FSU and CLemson will never be in the SEC. They know it. FSU had a chance a long time ago and turned it down

Miami and GT don't want to be in the SEC?

... because they are too good academically? Miami ranks #47 in US News, U. of Florida ranks #49. That's a difference?

Here are the facts: If the SEC had invited Miami, FSU, Clemson, and GT last year, ALL would have accepted. And the ACC would have been dead as a P5 conference. Sorry about that, but the ACC owes its existence as a major conference to SEC indifference.

You seem to have a misunderstanding as to the meaning of the word "facts".

I can only speak to Miami due to my ties there, but that school's administration wants nothing to do with the SEC. It's not just an academic quality thing, its the total institutional fit of Miami as a small, private urban school and its desire to maintain ties to the Northeast, which is why it originally wanted BC and Syracuse as members in 2003.

You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

Your statements reveal a 100% certainty that you have no idea what Miami thinks ...

I'm sure Miami would love to be in the SEC, but did you see their attendance against Virginia? That is not an SEC school. Miami has location going for it and not much else.

I don't think Clemson would have jumped so quickly either. Their first choice is the ACC, in the event things get ugly their best friend is the SEC but they still aren't happy about getting passed over for USC.

(11-27-2013 04:11 PM)CoogNellie Wrote:  I'm sure Miami would love to be in the SEC, but did you see their attendance against Virginia? That is not an SEC school. Miami has location going for it and not much else.

Oh I agree: The SEC wants nothing to do with Miami. I was hypothesizing about what would happen if the SEC invited them anyway.

Miami would be in the SEC.

(11-27-2013 04:11 PM)CoogNellie Wrote:  I'm sure Miami would love to be in the SEC, but did you see their attendance against Virginia? That is not an SEC school. Miami has location going for it and not much else.

By "not much else" you mean: 5 national championships.

On Miami and Georgia Tech I look at it this way. Georgia Tech left the SEC. Miami had a possibility in the early 90s but didn't have any interest in the SEC at that time.

If the SEC invited FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech and Miami, but FSU and Clemson said no, I can't imagine Miami and Georgia Tech saying yes. Now if FSU and Clemson left for the SEC or anywhere else, they would have little choice. But given a viable ACC that's where I believe they would stay. They just fit a lot better with Duke, Wake, Syracuse, BC, UVA and UNC than they do with any of the SEC schools other than Vanderbilt. They aren't as big and they have a lot higher admission standards. FSU and Clemson, however, fit better with the SEC schools and have the alumni base and $ to match the SEC schools on things like facilities.

If anything Miami's location is a bad thing for the program overall.

It's a small private school that relies on the city folks. When they are good the crowd is big and loud and when they are bad there is no crowd.

It isn't a setup designed for continual and sustained success. You can only win down there when you get all of the cards in line, still, you can really win when that happens.

(11-27-2013 04:14 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 04:11 PM)CoogNellie Wrote:  I'm sure Miami would love to be in the SEC, but did you see their attendance against Virginia? That is not an SEC school. Miami has location going for it and not much else.

By "not much else" you mean: 5 national championships.

Yeah Army and Navy have national championships too. I don't see anybody begging to get them.

(11-27-2013 04:07 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 02:27 PM)jaminandjachin Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:47 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(11-27-2013 07:39 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  You don't seem to speak for Miami very well. Heck, Miami would join the SEC just to get Florida on the schedule every year, they have always been desperate for that. As for the northeast, Miami dumped its Big East affiliations without a second thought to sign with a conference that had no northeast affiliations save for newcomer BC. Those are pretty weak ties.

No, Miami would have lunged at an SEC bid last year, as would Clemson, FSU, and Georgia Tech, and the ACC would have been toast.

FSU and Clemson would have definitely joined the SEC, regardless of any circumstance. I don't know much about Miami, but I feel as though you'd need an unstable ACC for them to switch. As for Tech, there is a great deal of animosity betwwen that school and the SEC that it would require the ACC losing P5 status for them to come crawling back to the conference they once called home.

Clemson would have joined. Not sure about FSU. FSU chose not to in the 90s. The President made disparaging comments in 2010 about the SEC. Depends on the $ projections and their certainty in those projections. I suspect the projections would have made enough sense to move for FSU. The SEC is the only conference that really makes sense for them geographically.

I'm not so sure Clemson would have. They value the history they've had in the ACC.

Clemson and FSU would have joined the SEC faster than an ACC fan could pull the thumb from their mouth.

You're entitled to your opinion. I think FSU might take the invite (and that's a big might), but Clemson I'm still not sure. They were the top dog in the conference before FSU showed up. In the ACC Clemson is special, in the SEC they're just like everyone else. The only special program in the SEC right now is Bama.