CSNbbs

Agree with Frank to a degree...BUT all things considered, the main reason for expansion is MONEY. So which school is going to compete at the highest level and earn the Big East money. And we are talking about NCAA basketball units.

Currently the BE is 6th in per school revenue from NCAA tourney units...ahead of the SEC. In reality they want to move up that list. This is where I see VCU fitting in...they have been successful, selling out and making tourney runs through multiple head coaches for awhile now. Wichita has been doing that lately under Marshall. Gonzaga has been doing it longer than VCU. As has Butler.

From that standpoint, St Louis doesn't seem to fit, they are good, then bad, then mediocre. Dayton is consistent, but last 4 in type consistent.

Market is important to an extent, but the BE already has big markets, what it really wants is big time basketball. I don't think Davidson is going to give you tourney units...

(03-28-2016 12:04 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]Agree with Frank to a degree...BUT all things considered, the main reason for expansion is MONEY.

But it's not just money from tournament credits. It's money from tuition. All that talk about athletics advertising for the university? That. And, the way things have developed, the Big East has evolved into a Catholic urban semi-Ivy League. That's an asset that should last, even if sports TV revenues (NCAA tournament included) crater after 2025 or so when the current set of contracts run out.

Seton HAll's interest in having the Big East name is, in part, the long-term benefit of being, at worst, the Brown or Dartmouth to Georgetown's HArvard. That advantages them over neighboring Catholic schools Iona, St Joes, LaSalle, St Francis (multiple).

(I'm still not sure what Georgetown gets out of the deal. Ego?)

That's why bringing in a VCU is resisted.

(03-28-2016 10:11 AM)bluesox Wrote: [ -> ]I'm surprised BU isn't in the UAA and try to get their hockey program a grandfather clause to keep it at d1. IF rules can be changed, maybe grandfather clauses can be re-opened.... if BU were willing to join the big 10 hockey than join the UAA, the big 10 probably could make it all happen.

Why would BU ever want to do that?

(03-28-2016 12:04 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]From that standpoint, St Louis doesn't seem to fit, they are good, then bad, then mediocre. Dayton is consistent, but last 4 in type consistent.

Two years ago, St. Louis was the slam-dunk No. 11 team and the only question was whether Dayton (objections from Xavier and possibly Marquette), VCU (public school) or Richmond (non-Catholic, not as successful as the other candidates) would be No. 12. Which is why entirely too many people get it twisted when they do realignment/expansion. Recent history is not a good indicator of a school's worth to a conference.

If St. Louis was a fit when expansion talk started, then it's still a fit even in the face of a couple of bad seasons. If it's not, then it never was.

FWIW, I think St. Louis still works for the Big East on a number of levels. Big market, good support, institutionally and regionally congruent. The basketball hasn't been great of late, and they don't have a consistent record of success, but they'd still be Big East-respectable with the right coach.

(03-28-2016 09:11 AM)upstater1 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm surprised the A10 never added Boston U.

In fact, Boston U. would also be a good add for the Big East. A good academic school with a nice arena, tens of thousands of students. The bball team gets no interest because of the conference they play in (Patriot League) which is small time. But if this school was ever elevated, it would start snagging a lot of good recruits. Boston U. was actually a pretty decent team in the 1980s when they were in a higher conference, but it didn't have a decent arena back then.

BU wanted to join the A10 for a long time but there were consistently better options available for the conference to choose from, the decision to invite Fordham being a head scratching exception. As mentioned in another post, UMass opposed their admission and Silber's temperament didn't help.

(03-28-2016 12:31 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016 12:04 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]From that standpoint, St Louis doesn't seem to fit, they are good, then bad, then mediocre. Dayton is consistent, but last 4 in type consistent.

Two years ago, St. Louis was the slam-dunk No. 11 team and the only question was whether Dayton (objections from Xavier and possibly Marquette), VCU (public school) or Richmond (non-Catholic, not as successful as the other candidates) would be No. 12. Which is why entirely too many people get it twisted when they do realignment/expansion. Recent history is not a good indicator of a school's worth to a conference.

If St. Louis was a fit when expansion talk started, then it's still a fit even in the face of a couple of bad seasons. If it's not, then it never was.

FWIW, I think St. Louis still works for the Big East on a number of levels. Big market, good support, institutionally and regionally congruent. The basketball hasn't been great of late, and they don't have a consistent record of success, but they'd still be Big East-respectable with the right coach.

Agreed, 90%. I think that there is and was probably a split on SLU. Every metric but basketball prowess, they're ideal, and a better candidate than Creighton or Butler just based on St Louis > Omaha/Indianapolis. Basketball-wise, they're behind VCU and WSU and maybe Davidson.

I don't think SLU cares at all about a consistent national presence in the sport. It just wants to be in a good league. When Metro/Great Midwest was falling apart, they came to life and made a good case for CUSA inclusion. CUSA fractured, and they landed favorably into A10, where they never amounted to anything until the Big East started looking around again (and that was before the fracturing, as they did go sniffing around Xavier for a time).

Honestly, take SLU, Big East. They seem like the sort who only wants to be good to get themselves somewhere else. They're placeholders the rest of the time. Maybe passing Wichita over helps the A10 sink that deal.

(03-28-2016 12:20 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016 12:04 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]Agree with Frank to a degree...BUT all things considered, the main reason for expansion is MONEY.

But it's not just money from tournament credits. It's money from tuition. All that talk about athletics advertising for the university? That. And, the way things have developed, the Big East has evolved into a Catholic urban semi-Ivy League. That's an asset that should last, even if sports TV revenues (NCAA tournament included) crater after 2025 or so when the current set of contracts run out.

Seton HAll's interest in having the Big East name is, in part, the long-term benefit of being, at worst, the Brown or Dartmouth to Georgetown's HArvard. That advantages them over neighboring Catholic schools Iona, St Joes, LaSalle, St Francis (multiple).

(I'm still not sure what Georgetown gets out of the deal. Ego?)

That's why bringing in a VCU is resisted.

Yes, it's about the Big East having an identity beyond just sports. I'd compare it more to being the urban non-FBS Catholic/private counterpart to the Big Ten FBS big research university league in the same footprint as opposed to the Ivy League, but it's the same idea. Generally speaking, all of the Big East schools are going after the same types of students (with Georgetown being an academic outlier similar to Northwestern in the Big Ten or Vandy in the SEC). It's not just about being a "best of the rest" basketball league without any greater identifiable purpose.

From Georgetown's perspective, there realistically isn't some other better option on the table compared to the Big East (e.g. going to the ACC as a non-football member like Notre Dame). The Patriot League might be an academic upgrade, but a massive athletic downgrade. At the end of the day, Georgetown has a ton of clout (and I'd argue the most clout) compared to any other Big East member when it comes to running the league. I think that's what it gets out of the relationship.

If Majerus had been healthy when the Big East was re-forming, SLU would have been in. Simple as that. But there was just too much uncertainty there for the Big East when starting up. Butler and Xavier much more of known quantities. And Creighton much more consistent as well over SLU.

Creighton had an easy out clause with the Valley compared to the A-10 schools.

(03-28-2016 12:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016 12:31 PM)Cyniclone Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016 12:04 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]From that standpoint, St Louis doesn't seem to fit, they are good, then bad, then mediocre. Dayton is consistent, but last 4 in type consistent.

Two years ago, St. Louis was the slam-dunk No. 11 team and the only question was whether Dayton (objections from Xavier and possibly Marquette), VCU (public school) or Richmond (non-Catholic, not as successful as the other candidates) would be No. 12. Which is why entirely too many people get it twisted when they do realignment/expansion. Recent history is not a good indicator of a school's worth to a conference.

If St. Louis was a fit when expansion talk started, then it's still a fit even in the face of a couple of bad seasons. If it's not, then it never was.

FWIW, I think St. Louis still works for the Big East on a number of levels. Big market, good support, institutionally and regionally congruent. The basketball hasn't been great of late, and they don't have a consistent record of success, but they'd still be Big East-respectable with the right coach.

Agreed, 90%. I think that there is and was probably a split on SLU. Every metric but basketball prowess, they're ideal, and a better candidate than Creighton or Butler just based on St Louis > Omaha/Indianapolis. Basketball-wise, they're behind VCU and WSU and maybe Davidson.

I think the issue with SLU is the lack of an obvious 12th team. If Dayton were located in NE Ohio I think they and SLU would likely have been invited at the start. I think Davidson's tiny enrollment is going to keep them out of the running. Davidson has 200 more undergrads than Amherst. That's how small it is. Good academic reputation and good basketball but it really isn't like the other Big East members.

I don't know if I can envision Davidson in the Big East; nothing against them, I have a handful of friends who went there, but it's a really small school. Smaller than my high school. I'm talking fewer than half as many students as Providence, the current smallest school in the Big East. Richmond would be a much better fit, and even though it's small, it's got more than twice as many students as Davidson.

St. Louis would bring a lot to the Big East.

(03-28-2016 12:49 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote: [ -> ]From Georgetown's perspective, there realistically isn't some other better option on the table compared to the Big East (e.g. going to the ACC as a non-football member like Notre Dame). The Patriot League might be an academic upgrade, but a massive athletic downgrade. At the end of the day, Georgetown has a ton of clout (and I'd argue the most clout) compared to any other Big East member when it comes to running the league. I think that's what it gets out of the relationship.

What I meant was, I don't see how it's in Georgetown's interest to emphasize and shape the Big East as a Catholic urban Big 10, given the big academic gap between Georgetown and everyone else in the conference. If I were Georgetown's president or BOT president, I'd want to downplay the academic-athletic linkage (IOW make it all about basketball, because associating with St Johns and the rest of the C7 can only drag me down.

"Peers? These guys? Naaah, we just play basketball together. Hey, look at our SAT/GRE scores."

EDIT: By the same token, you don't see Harvard folks talking about "other Ivies", they talk about "HYP" HArvard Yale PRinceton. Brown, Cornell, Penn? Pshaw.

If the Big East is going to add St Louis, it might as well not expand.

I completely understand the academic side of things. But the purpose of EXPANSION is to increase revenue. In many cases market comes into play...but in the Big East's case, they have market...they just need the best basketball programs. THAT is how they earn their revenue.

There is no reason to add a bottom three basketball team to the league. ZERO. Sure SLU was talked about when they were looking at adding members...and what did the Big East grab...high level basketball programs. It bypasses SLU for Creighton even.

IMO, at this point Gonzaga has a better chance of getting into the Big East than SLU does.

If the Big East doesn't have big basketball revenues, then it is just another conference.

(03-26-2016 01:17 PM)rjglassett Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, stay at 10. Double round-robin for basketball. No difference between 10 and 12 (really) for the conference tournament. None of the current Big East schools are looking elsewhere. Why expand?

Agreed. If Wichita State only has ambitions of an FCS program then adding them and even just them alone is a solid addition for the Big East. Adds another solid hoops program and gives Creighton a Plains state neighbor, but there's really no reason to expand for expansion's sake.

And as for Gonzaga, they fit in every way but geographically. And they're such a geographic mismatch that it DQs them.

(03-28-2016 01:47 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]There is no reason to add a bottom three basketball team to the league. ZERO. Sure SLU was talked about when they were looking at adding members...and what did the Big East grab...high level basketball programs. It bypasses SLU for Creighton even.

There is a poster for St. Boneventure on the A-10 message board and BE board (HLOH) who made a compelling argument that it would be the in the best interest for the BE to add doormat teams to boost up wins for the top half of the league. i think his name is jpsmack or something. Would love to see him come up here and go over it.

Quote:Posted by Chappy - Today 11:58 AM
I don't know if I can envision Davidson in the Big East; nothing against them, I have a handful of friends who went there, but it's a really small school. Smaller than my high school. I'm talking fewer than half as many students as Providence, the current smallest school in the Big East. Richmond would be a much better fit, and even though it's small, it's got more than twice as many students as Davidson.

St. Louis would bring a lot to the Big East.

This. Would love to see Richmond use up some of their 2 Billion dollar endowment (no joke) and invest in their BBall program.

(03-28-2016 02:04 PM)ivet Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016 01:47 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote: [ -> ]There is no reason to add a bottom three basketball team to the league. ZERO. Sure SLU was talked about when they were looking at adding members...and what did the Big East grab...high level basketball programs. It bypasses SLU for Creighton even.

There is a poster for St. Boneventure on the A-10 message board and BE board (HLOH) who made a compelling argument that it would be the in the best interest for the BE to add doormat teams to boost up wins for the top half of the league. i think his name is jpsmack or something. Would love to see him come up here and go over it.


This. Would love to see Richmond use up some of their 2 Billion dollar endowment (no joke) and invest in their BBall program.

I don't know if this is still the case at Richmond, but in the past there's been some pushback over admission of athletes. I think that being next door to VCU makes building a strong program and fan interest harder as well. There are a lot more people in the area with ties to VCU than with ties to Richmond.

yeah until VCU falls apart(which is unlikely)- it's going to make it very hard for Richmond to gain any traction to get good enough to get in the Big East. Heck, the longer it goes, the more likely VCU does get added, as if it gets close to the new TV deal- VCU will be very difficult to top.

Discussing BE expansion without acknowledging that SLU is a virtual lock, imo, boarders on silly, given how well SLU fits “by the numbers” in the BE.

SLU By the numbers:

School size:
http://collegestats.org/colleges/catholic/largest/

Endowment:
https://cnsblog.wordpress.com/2011/08/25...ndowments/

Academics:
http://colleges.startclass.com/d/a/Catholic
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreview...l-rankings

Attendance (even in a down year):
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketba...d/2014.pdf

Metro Population:
https://www.currentresults.com/Weather-E...s-list.php

Facilities:
http://www.slubillikens.com/ViewArticle....=205246206

Concerning Gonzaga, as I mentioned in a 2013 post (quoting myself):

“... Gonzaga is not leaving the WCC. It is way too risky. The WCC’s members are also perfectly situated in all of the major (growing) W. Coast markets, save one – SEATTLE (and that is because of Gonzaga). The second Gonzaga leaves the WCC would elevate Seattle University (which – consistent with its name – is unlike Gonzaga in that it is NOT 200 miles from the population/recruiting center of the State of Washington). Short of Gonzaga getting invited to the PAC12, Gonzaga cannot risk having Seattle U. in the WCC; so, Gonzaga will not be accepting any [other] offers.”

Concerning Wichita State: the idea of the BE inviting a public school at this point seem foolish. Aside from the obvious chemistry between the current members (common mission, purpose, philosophy, ancestry, etc.) – which is the reason conferences persevere over time – the Conference has branded itself as an elite Catholic basketball conference. That uniformity (sans Butler) is part of its identity – a differentiating feature of its “brand”. I can’t imagine risking that on Wichita State (even though I have great respect for that program).

To me, the only questions left unanswered are: will the BE expand, and if so, who will be SLU’s eastern counterpart?

SLU has to get to being at least competent before they are added. No major conference has added a team that wasn't good at one of the 2 big sports(either football or men's basketball). As long as SLU keeps on losing 20+ games a year, they have no chance of being added. Keep it up a few more years until the end of the TV deal, and they risk losing everything.