(05-08-2023 01:50 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  ... What fan wouldn't want Independence,? You get to play whomever you like without consequences.

Man, your school must be caught in a conference it doesn't want to be in.

I expect the percentage of Buckeye fans who would prefer Independence to the Big Ten would be closer to 0% than to double digits.

(05-08-2023 12:09 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  There are five universities with D-I athletics that take a vastly different approach than "everyone else": Notre Dame, BYU and the three service academies. Notre Dame has zero interest in joining a league for football and I hope it never does.

Actually the number is 13. The Ivy League is its own universe, with no scholarships, no redshirt, a 1 day spring schedule, no playoff berths, and only playing 10 games.

(05-08-2023 12:11 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:33 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  Has anyone been on the Peacock app?

It sucks, there is very little content worth subscribing to. I get it for free right now with my Comcast/Xfinity but once that ends, there is 0 reason to sign up for Peacock.

NBC needs Notre Dame and they better jump through any hoops necessary to keep them happy.

They are all WWE. If WWE goes away then Peacock as a whole fails.

WWE and Premier League games.

(05-08-2023 10:46 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  https://fightingirishwire.usatoday.com/lists/notre-dame-tv-contract-nbc-college-football-tv-deals/

Came across this today and thought it brought up some valid points regarding ND and NBC's relationship. The money and exposure is no longer a competitive edge for ND's partnership with NBC. With the B1G and SEC now getting nine figures annually just for football (with all games available to watch nationally), the NBC deal doesn't represent what it used to be for ND. Even if the new deal is ~$75 million per year (and I'm throwing that number out, not even sure what has been floated or rumored), that's $25 million less than either the B1G or SEC (and $100 million less over a four-year period).

There are many reasons why ND will remain independent, but the financial and exposure reasons do not create the same type of separation that they did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

Will be fascinating to see what the next TV deal looks like for Notre Dame.

1. Where did you get $75m for ND? Rumors I've heard over the past 9 months are that ND wants $60m AAV, uncertain length, with no news on what NBC expects to offer. NBC Sports President went to ND, he's not losing that contract unless he says he doesn't want it.
2. Where did you get $100m for the P2? Numerous media reports I've read were $65-75m AAV, B1G ending in 2030 and SEC in 2034.

(05-08-2023 11:01 AM)e-parade Wrote:  Doesn't ND also get a good chunk of money from the ACC membership? Not a full share, obviously, but enough that if their new media deal for football is that $75 million that was thrown around that they'll end up closer to $90 million, and that ~$10 million a year is probably worth it to maintain independence.

The question would be from the NBC side, if they want to go that high.

Perhaps some of the ACC people here can chime in, what I've heard about ND is that they get a 20% share of the ACC and a full share of ACCN.

(05-08-2023 12:47 PM)Big 12 fan too Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 10:46 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  https://fightingirishwire.usatoday.com/lists/notre-dame-tv-contract-nbc-college-football-tv-deals/

Came across this today and thought it brought up some valid points regarding ND and NBC's relationship. The money and exposure is no longer a competitive edge for ND's partnership with NBC. With the B1G and SEC now getting nine figures annually just for football (with all games available to watch nationally), the NBC deal doesn't represent what it used to be for ND. Even if the new deal is ~$75 million per year (and I'm throwing that number out, not even sure what has been floated or rumored), that's $25 million less than either the B1G or SEC (and $100 million less over a four-year period).

There are many reasons why ND will remain independent, but the financial and exposure reasons do not create the same type of separation that they did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

Will be fascinating to see what the next TV deal looks like for Notre Dame.

All this says to me is it’s time to stop giving NBC a discount.

ND as an independent is extreme consolidation to the networks. Get an elite brand without needing to prop up a conference. Little in scheduling constraints.

ND can get P2 exposure and money. It’s whether they maintain the uniqueness

If just another BIG or SEC game on various channels week-to-week, they more quickly lose ND branding

I don’t see them leaving OTA for home game package. It’s NBC or ABC, maybe CBS imo. If ND gets roped into a conference, I’d look for them to essentially have their deal rolled into the conference deal, so that they’re on the same channel/time. Easier done if with NBC imo

Notre Dame will wind up being Solomon's baby. The proposal will be to divide them. Having no fleshly mothers claiming them, only an immortal one, they will live on in a closed upper tier as an independent playing 6 games with the Big 10 and 6 with the SEC, or should we have the anticipated third composite conference 4 with the Big 10, 4 with the SEC and 4 with the Big12/Composite. They won't get any conference championship consideration but will always be able to claim an at large.

Do this and we can get on with realignment/consolidation.

(05-08-2023 01:53 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 01:42 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:27 AM)UCbball21 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

I think the idea that ND will lose donor money if they joined a conference is totally overblown. Are you really going to stop donating to your favorite school just because they play in an elite conference versus independence? Seems silly.

"Woe is me! ND has to play Ohio State, Michigan, USC, and Penn St. semi-regularly!" PUH-LEASE!

The ND-Clemson ACC championship game drew almost 10M viewers. If that game is ND-OSU in a B1G championship you're probably looking at 15M viewers and one of the highest-rated games of the season.

If ND is forced to join a conference there may be some dissent at first but the majority of their donors will fall right back in line as soon as that first conference game kicks off.

As long as ND is regularly competing for a CFP bid, the money will flowing.

Do you know a critical mass of actual Domers that attended the school (not merely T-shirt fans or Subway Alumni)? For better or worse, I do with a bunch of my neighbors and co-workers.

This isn't like a USC alum complaining about being in the Big Ten vs. Pac-12 or a Texas alum that may have reservations about the SEC.

For Notre Dame, independence is their core institutional identity. It's not a matter of just football - it's engrained in how they see themselves as a school.

Now, if ND is structurally prohibited from competing for a national championship without being a member of a conference (and it's got to be an outright structural prohibition, not merely more difficult), then I believe Domers would acknowledge that they have no choice other than to join a league.

Short of that being the case, though, Domers are a different breed. As long as the Domers believe that ND has a *choice* (and not making enough money isn't one of them because they'll send ND plenty of money), then they're going to vehemently reject conference membership and they'll vote with their dollars.

It might insane to you or me because conference membership is just a natural course of life for all of the rest of us, but the *institutional* identity piece for ND can't be underestimated. It's NOT just about football - that's what so many people that haven't dealt with directly with Domers need to understand.

We all know the reasons why ND wants to remain Independent but the broken record question is why does everyone else allow them to remain Independent and be able to compete for the CFP? There's nothing stopping them from playing a MAC schedule in the future and going undefeated.

I know years ago you correctly mentioned that conferences didn't want to push ND into a corner and have them join a competitor. But now the P5 is down to P2 as they aren't joining the ACC, PAC, or B12 fulltime. So again why does everyone bend over backwards to include them as a sole entity?

Its only your broken record. It has been explained before.

The networks want ND to be able to participate in the playoffs. They don't care if ND is an independent in the playoffs, not enough to do anything about it.

The Big Ten doesn't want to push ND into the SEC. The SEC doesn't want to do anything to push ND into the Big Ten.

Mexican Standoff.

The ACC doesn't want to lose ND as a member to the SEC or Big Ten. That would sink the floundering ship.

The PAC 10 and Big 12 don't really care about it one way or another. They don't want to pick a fight with ND. Why would they? What would they get out of it?

At the level of the network executives and college presidents, an independent ND is not something that bothers them (unlike some fans and message board posters).

Any questions?

Thanks for the input, Terry. I have a question and would like your thoughts on the matter:

Would Notre Dame promote/support a merger between the ACC and the PAC by agreeing to a scheduling and Olympic-sports arrangement between both of them? If so, would that stabilize both conferences?

I ask because after checking out the ACC board over the weekend I re-learned something I had forgotten in all of this madness: Tobacco Road and UVA really do not want to be split up. Because of this alone the ACC may survive, as I am no longer convinced that Clemson would leave.

It is also entirely possible that the SEC may not be as interested in Florida State as some imagine. For all we know they may wind up staying a 16 members.

The level of ingratitude among ND fans is mind boggling. The US Navy insured the Irish could play football in 1942, 1943, and 1944 and the result was a series with Annapolis that still persists today. The ACC ensured that ND had a football season, and they bellyached about it. I recall one poster even calling playing a conference schedule incestuous.

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:01 AM)e-parade Wrote:  Doesn't ND also get a good chunk of money from the ACC membership? Not a full share, obviously, but enough that if their new media deal for football is that $75 million that was thrown around that they'll end up closer to $90 million, and that ~$10 million a year is probably worth it to maintain independence.

The question would be from the NBC side, if they want to go that high.

Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about ND's fundraising prowess. How much did they raise in 2022? 2021? 2020? I had trouble finding information from the past decade for them.

https://www.txamfoundation.com/News/Texa...paign.aspx

A&M - $4.25b from 903,658 individual gifts over 9 years (from Jan 2012 to Dec 2020), that's $472m per year for 9 years. Only 8% of that was for Athletics, with another 10% unrestricted.

https://news.nd.edu/news/notre-dame-camp...4-billion/

ND - $2.014b over 7 years (for the period from July 1, 2004 to June 30, 2011), that's $ 277m per year for that period. MUCH higher on a per-student basis, but much lower on a total basis in total dollars or in 2020 dollars.

I have not looked at any other Universities, and a casual search did not turn up more recent fundraising numbers for ND. I wouldn't be surprised if other schools had raised more than A&M, ND included, but I did not see more recent info on ND and didn't search for other colleges. Our endowments have both grown a lot in the past decade, but they're very close to the same (~ $18b for A&M, $20b for ND).

I'm convinced, as are you, that ND is determined to remain independent, but I don't think it's necessary to make such a reach to explain their reasoning. I think it's just more like A&M: 95% of us wanted to join the SEC and are still VERY glad that we're there, so we aren't going anywhere else. 95%, or at least a very strong majority, of ND students/boosters/faculty/fans/etc want them to remain independent if it's financially feasible, so they're going to remain independent.

(05-08-2023 03:44 PM)Ned Low Wrote:  I ask because after checking out the ACC board over the weekend I re-learned something I had forgotten in all of this madness: Tobacco Road and UVA really do not want to be split up. Because of this alone the ACC may survive, as I am no longer convinced that Clemson would leave.

It is also entirely possible that the SEC may not be as interested in Florida State as some imagine. For all we know they may wind up staying a 16 members.

So your premise is this: ACC schools would say, "We have an opportunity to go somewhere we can make tens of millions more dollars every year, hundreds of millions more every 5-10 years. But we really like these other schools we're playing with. Tradition is more important to us than hundreds of millions of dollars."

Said no school ever.

And that won't change for a single ACC institution.

(05-08-2023 11:25 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)ken d Wrote:  ... That's the first time I've ever seen anybody suggest that B1G and SEC teams are getting $100 million a year each from their media contract (much less just for football). Where are you getting that information?

It may be rounding up the ESPN piece on the new deal:

Quote: The Big Ten has completed a new seven-year media rights agreement with Fox, CBS and NBC that is set to bring in more than $7 billion to one of the nation's most powerful athletic conferences.
...
The Big Ten is projected to eventually distribute $80 million to $100 million per year to each of its 16 members. According to USA Today, the league distributed $54.3 million to most of its members during the most recent fiscal year (2019-20) not impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.

The simple per school, per year on $7b is more like $75m.

If ND gets $50m-$60m average over a six year contract, then with the ACC payout on top it seems like it would definitely be close enough. The idea that it needs $75m from NBC to "stay independent" is rounding up S2 revenues, rounding down ND's ACC revenues to $0, and as Frank the Tank notes, ignoring the alumni tithes that ND receives.

It also ignores their FB bowl money, which I assume they get 100% as an Independent. They've been to 5 major bowls in 11 years, including a CFP semifinal and the BCS champtionship game. Most of their other bowls are still good ones that pay very well, though not on the level of the Major Bowls ofc. They get ~$3m per year from the current CFP contract. I'd guess conservatively that's $10m a year, factoring in their major and minor bowls and CFP money from the past decade+. Throw in ~ $8m from the ACC, which could grow by quite a bit in coming years as more ACCN $$ starts rolling in, and ND could get a $42m per year media rights deal and still be at the final $60m once all was said and done. And that's before the new CFP money starts rolling in. It's actually not unreasonable to project ND as being very close to or even even with the P2 after all is said and done.

(05-08-2023 03:52 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:01 AM)e-parade Wrote:  Doesn't ND also get a good chunk of money from the ACC membership? Not a full share, obviously, but enough that if their new media deal for football is that $75 million that was thrown around that they'll end up closer to $90 million, and that ~$10 million a year is probably worth it to maintain independence.

The question would be from the NBC side, if they want to go that high.

Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about ND's fundraising prowess. How much did they raise in 2022? 2021? 2020? I had trouble finding information from the past decade for them.

https://www.txamfoundation.com/News/Texa...paign.aspx

A&M - $4.25b from 903,658 individual gifts over 9 years (from Jan 2012 to Dec 2020), that's $472m per year for 9 years. Only 8% of that was for Athletics, with another 10% unrestricted.

https://news.nd.edu/news/notre-dame-camp...4-billion/

ND - $2.014b over 7 years (for the period from July 1, 2004 to June 30, 2011), that's $ 277m per year for that period. MUCH higher on a per-student basis, but much lower on a total basis in total dollars or in 2020 dollars.

I have not looked at any other Universities, and a casual search did not turn up more recent fundraising numbers for ND. I wouldn't be surprised if other schools had raised more than A&M, ND included, but I did not see more recent info on ND and didn't search for other colleges. Our endowments have both grown a lot in the past decade, but they're very close to the same (~ $18b for A&M, $20b for ND).

I'm convinced, as are you, that ND is determined to remain independent, but I don't think it's necessary to make such a reach to explain their reasoning. I think it's just more like A&M: 95% of us wanted to join the SEC and are still VERY glad that we're there, so we aren't going anywhere else. 95%, or at least a very strong majority, of ND students/boosters/faculty/fans/etc want them to remain independent if it's financially feasible, so they're going to remain independent.

That's actually my point regarding ND. They're getting that amount of money out of an enrollment of less than 9,000 undergrad students compared to Texas A&M (which my understanding has one of higher alumni giving rates among public universities) that has over 57,000 undergrad students and then you compound that number among multiple generations of alums. So, the ND alumni giving rate on a per capita basis is insanely high. ND has a larger endowment than half of the Ivy League, Northwestern, Duke, University of Chicago and Vandy even though ND isn't producing the same levels of high income JDs, MBAs or PhDs (or any MDs at all) as those other institutions - that's pretty astounding loyalty and amounts of alumni giving considering that it's largely all based on undergrad alum donations.

(05-08-2023 01:50 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 01:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 12:22 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:33 AM)ArmoredUpKnight Wrote:  Has anyone been on the Peacock app?

It sucks, there is very little content worth subscribing to. I get it for free right now with my Comcast/Xfinity but once that ends, there is 0 reason to sign up for Peacock.

NBC needs Notre Dame and they better jump through any hoops necessary to keep them happy.

By chance, I just looked at the Peacock app yesterday. They have maybe one show I would watch.

They need content, and one Notre Dame body bag game a year is not going to be enough. I would guess that's why they included Big Ten basketball games in their Big Ten contract.

(05-08-2023 12:11 PM)mlb Wrote:  They are all WWE. If WWE goes away then Peacock as a whole fails.

OK, so that would by why they have maybe one show I would watch.

It seems like a reason UCF and WWE merged is that they could then collectively threaten the rights holders that in the next contract it would all go to the other one, and then use that to squeeze more money out of the existing rights holders, and get all the benefits of staying with a stable media platform while still get the financial benefits of threatening to leave.

(05-08-2023 12:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:27 AM)UCbball21 Wrote:  I think the idea that ND will lose donor money if they joined a conference is totally overblown. Are you really going to stop donating to your favorite school just because they play in an elite conference versus independence? Seems silly.

"Woe is me! ND has to play Ohio State, Michigan, USC, and Penn St. semi-regularly!" PUH-LEASE!

The ND-Clemson ACC championship game drew almost 10M viewers. If that game is ND-OSU in a B1G championship you're probably looking at 15M viewers and one of the highest-rated games of the season.

If ND is forced to join a conference there may be some dissent at first but the majority of their donors will fall right back in line as soon as that first conference game kicks off.

As long as ND is regularly competing for a CFP bid, the money will flowing.

Do you know a critical mass of actual Domers that attended the school (not merely T-shirt fans or Subway Alumni)? For better or worse, I do with a bunch of my neighbors and co-workers.

This isn't like a USC alum complaining about being in the Big Ten vs. Pac-12 or a Texas alum that may have reservations about the SEC.

For Notre Dame, independence is their core institutional identity. It's not a matter of just football - it's engrained in how they see themselves as a school.

Now, if ND is structurally prohibited from competing for a national championship without being a member of a conference (and it's got to be an outright structural prohibition, not merely more difficult), then I believe Domers would acknowledge that they have no choice other than to join a league.

Short of that being the case, though, Domers are a different breed. As long as the Domers believe that ND has a *choice* (and not making enough money isn't one of them because they'll send ND plenty of money), then they're going to vehemently reject conference membership and they'll vote with their dollars.

It might insane to you or me because conference membership is just a natural course of life for all of the rest of us, but the *institutional* identity piece for ND can't be underestimated. It's NOT just about football - that's what so many people that haven't dealt with directly with Domers need to understand.

They didn't squawk about being in the ACC in 2020. And they haven't been independent in anything but football for decades. They don't want to give it up, but they will get over it pretty quick if it means not losing competitiveness.

ND fans did squawk about 2020 and playing a full ACC schedule.

They greatly disliked it. It was better than nothing, but ND fans felt too constricted playing 9 games against one conference.

You would be hard pressed to find many ND fans who thought the ACC experience in 2020 was a positive one.

A poll done at the end of the 2020 season by The Athletic revealed that ND's 2020 football conference experience actually made ND fans MORE in favor of independence than before the 2020 season.

(That was the exact opposite of what ACC officials hoped for when ND joined for football in 2020. It was a major turn off)

ND promptly pulled its football program out of the ACC right after the 2020 season and went right back to being a football independent.


P.S. I, for one, lamented the day in 1995 when ND basketball ended a 100 years of independence and joined the Big East. ND's best basketball days were in the 1970's as a major independent with NBC nationwide TV games against Kentucky, UCLA, DePaul and others.

Its a specious argument to make about ND basketball, baseball, etc...being in a conference. Football is the only sport that really matters at ND. The others are all considered minor sports in comparison.

Yeah, it was great seeing them in a Conference in 2020 instead of perpetually gaming the system.

What fan wouldn't want Independence,? You get to play whomever you like without consequences.

Nah, it blew chunks. I mean it was great proving the "ND cannot survive playing a conference schedule" folks completely wrong by ND going 9-0 in the ACC, making the ACC Championship game in its first try and making the playoffs again.

But, it blew chunks as an ND fan experience by playing 9 teams from the same conference. It felt restrictive and was boring, to put it frankly.

Also, it is the conferences "gaming the system" since 1990, not ND.

Back then, there were plenty of major football independents until this conference expansion BS "gamed" things all up.

Since you think that independence is so rosy and an unfair advantage, you should lobby the school you root for to also "game the system" by becoming a football independent too.

As far as scheduling, ND's schedules are plenty tough. Ohio State, USC and Clemson, among others, will play ND this coming season.

(05-08-2023 02:36 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 01:42 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:27 AM)UCbball21 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

I think the idea that ND will lose donor money if they joined a conference is totally overblown. Are you really going to stop donating to your favorite school just because they play in an elite conference versus independence? Seems silly.

"Woe is me! ND has to play Ohio State, Michigan, USC, and Penn St. semi-regularly!" PUH-LEASE!

The ND-Clemson ACC championship game drew almost 10M viewers. If that game is ND-OSU in a B1G championship you're probably looking at 15M viewers and one of the highest-rated games of the season.

If ND is forced to join a conference there may be some dissent at first but the majority of their donors will fall right back in line as soon as that first conference game kicks off.

As long as ND is regularly competing for a CFP bid, the money will flowing.

Do you know a critical mass of actual Domers that attended the school (not merely T-shirt fans or Subway Alumni)? For better or worse, I do with a bunch of my neighbors and co-workers.

This isn't like a USC alum complaining about being in the Big Ten vs. Pac-12 or a Texas alum that may have reservations about the SEC.

For Notre Dame, independence is their core institutional identity. It's not a matter of just football - it's engrained in how they see themselves as a school.

Now, if ND is structurally prohibited from competing for a national championship without being a member of a conference (and it's got to be an outright structural prohibition, not merely more difficult), then I believe Domers would acknowledge that they have no choice other than to join a league.

Short of that being the case, though, Domers are a different breed. As long as the Domers believe that ND has a *choice* (and not making enough money isn't one of them because they'll send ND plenty of money), then they're going to vehemently reject conference membership and they'll vote with their dollars.

It might insane to you or me because conference membership is just a natural course of life for all of the rest of us, but the *institutional* identity piece for ND can't be underestimated. It's NOT just about football - that's what so many people that haven't dealt with directly with Domers need to understand.

We all know the reasons why ND wants to remain Independent but the broken record question is why does everyone else allow them to remain Independent and be able to compete for the CFP? There's nothing stopping them from playing a MAC schedule in the future and going undefeated.

I know years ago you correctly mentioned that conferences didn't want to push ND into a corner and have them join a competitor. But now the P5 is down to P2 as they aren't joining the ACC, PAC, or B12 fulltime. So again why does everyone bend over backwards to include them as a sole entity?

The thing I object to is giving them a vote on the CFP equal to that of conferences. I don't understand the benefit to the 10 conferences. Except for distributions, which they deserve, they should be treated like any other independent.

Notre Dame is more deserving of a vote than any of the G5 conferences though.

"why does everyone else allow it"
1. Notre Dame brings money (auduence) to the table.
2. The Lords of CFB aren't as consumed by envy as you are. Envy or just a semi OCD disquiet with anomalies in the system.

NBC did seem to have some splashy adverts for its "B1G Saturday Night" thing it will begin broadcasting this Fall.

Whether they see that as a complement to or a kind of replacement for ND football, we'll see.

I don’t think ND fans/alums are homogenous and it seems to me the younger fans/alums are not so against joining a conference.

Not a Big Ten fan but I expect ND will join the BIG by 2036.

(05-08-2023 11:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:27 AM)UCbball21 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:01 AM)e-parade Wrote:  Doesn't ND also get a good chunk of money from the ACC membership? Not a full share, obviously, but enough that if their new media deal for football is that $75 million that was thrown around that they'll end up closer to $90 million, and that ~$10 million a year is probably worth it to maintain independence.

The question would be from the NBC side, if they want to go that high.

Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

I think the idea that ND will lose donor money if they joined a conference is totally overblown. Are you really going to stop donating to your favorite school just because they play in an elite conference versus independence? Seems silly.

"Woe is me! ND has to play Ohio State, Michigan, USC, and Penn St. semi-regularly!" PUH-LEASE!

The ND-Clemson ACC championship game drew almost 10M viewers. If that game is ND-OSU in a B1G championship you're probably looking at 15M viewers and one of the highest-rated games of the season.

If ND is forced to join a conference there may be some dissent at first but the majority of their donors will fall right back in line as soon as that first conference game kicks off.

As long as ND is regularly competing for a CFP bid, the money will flowing.

Do you know a critical mass of actual Domers that attended the school (not merely T-shirt fans or Subway Alumni)? For better or worse, I do with a bunch of my neighbors and co-workers.

This isn't like a USC alum complaining about being in the Big Ten vs. Pac-12 or a Texas alum that may have reservations about the SEC.

For Notre Dame, independence is their core institutional identity. It's not a matter of just football - it's engrained in how they see themselves as a school.

Now, if ND is structurally prohibited from competing for a national championship without being a member of a conference (and it's got to be an outright structural prohibition, not merely more difficult), then I believe Domers would acknowledge that they have no choice other than to join a league.

Short of that being the case, though, Domers are a different breed. As long as the Domers believe that ND has a *choice* (and not making enough money isn't one of them because they'll send ND plenty of money), then they're going to vehemently reject conference membership and they'll vote with their dollars.

It might insane to you or me because conference membership is just a natural course of life for all of the rest of us, but the *institutional* identity piece for ND can't be underestimated. It's NOT just about football - that's what so many people that haven't dealt with directly with Domers need to understand.

Ok, so you're using anecdotal evidence about donations from people you know for ND. I assume that you read my earlier post with fundraising figures, but I didn't use my own anecdotal evidence. A friend of mine gave $4m to A&M last fall. Almost all of my college friends give on some level, though none approach his. As far as I know, he doesn't care at all about Football, or any Athletics programs at all, certainly not enough to fund huge NIL initiatives etc. He has donated enough over the years that about a decade ago he started getting a dozen (very good) tickets to every game. But he could donate to athletics if that was his priority, or all of my other buddies combined could for that matter, we just prefer to support the general University fund, or specific fund, or scholarships, or the Corps, etc etc etc.

https://engineering.tamu.edu/news/2023/0...minor.html

(05-08-2023 03:45 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The level of ingratitude among ND fans is mind boggling. The US Navy insured the Irish could play football in 1942, 1943, and 1944 and the result was a series with Annapolis that still persists today. The ACC ensured that ND had a football season, and they bellyached about it. I recall one poster even calling playing a conference schedule incestuous.

That was me. Sorry if ND fans don't like the idea of playing in a football conference and that bothers you.

(No, no...I am actually not)

Playing 9 ACC schools that year was as exciting as kissing your sister. So, yes....it felt "incestuous".

It was like playing the same school nine times. All were from the same conference, the same area of the country and seemed to all be the same.

Gratitude is not called for when two sophisticated parties enter into a one year business deal that benefits both parties.

Where is the ACC's gratitude for ND providing great ratings all season and a record viewership for its title game?

Where is the ACC's gratitude for 2020 being its best financial one in history because ND was involved? The ACC got a record payout that year.

It was a cold, calculated business deal, nothing more. It wasn't a handout. The ACC did this for its own business reasons. So did ND.

It was not like the in laws putting one up for free for a year, meals included. So, you can take your "gratitude" and........

P.S. I also believe that after almost 80 seasons since then, ND has paid that Navy debt dozens of times over and the yearly series should be discontinued.

(05-08-2023 12:09 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:42 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:27 AM)UCbball21 Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:10 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 11:01 AM)e-parade Wrote:  Doesn't ND also get a good chunk of money from the ACC membership? Not a full share, obviously, but enough that if their new media deal for football is that $75 million that was thrown around that they'll end up closer to $90 million, and that ~$10 million a year is probably worth it to maintain independence.

The question would be from the NBC side, if they want to go that high.

Yes - correct. They still get a 20% share of the ACC distribution, so that has to be added to get a full picture of ND's revenue.

I'll always go back to this with respect to ND: I don't think anyone that went to a school besides ND (even places like Michigan and Texas) can quite comprehend the overwhelming level of donations that they receive from virtually EVERYONE that attended the school. As a result, ND actually *does* listen to its alums from the bottom-up as opposed to having top-down decisions by administrators or through key donors. ND's financial power isn't from a few key boosters (even though they definitely have a lot of big money donors) or their NBC contract, but rather they effectively get tithes from their entire alumni base that collectively dwarfs what any other major sports school receives (in essence just like the Catholic Church itself).

As long as that alumni base is committed to independence as a principle, then ND will listen to them. Making $20 million more per year in the Big Ten is peanuts compared to losing waaaay more money in alumni donations. That's the piece that a lot of realignment observers miss when they're just comparing the TV revenue from NBC versus the Big Ten contracts. ND might be the most alumni-driven school in America - it's a totally different level than virtually everyone else.

I think the idea that ND will lose donor money if they joined a conference is totally overblown. Are you really going to stop donating to your favorite school just because they play in an elite conference versus independence? Seems silly.

"Woe is me! ND has to play Ohio State, Michigan, USC, and Penn St. semi-regularly!" PUH-LEASE!

The ND-Clemson ACC championship game drew almost 10M viewers. If that game is ND-OSU in a B1G championship you're probably looking at 15M viewers and one of the highest-rated games of the season.

If ND is forced to join a conference there may be some dissent at first but the majority of their donors will fall right back in line as soon as that first conference game kicks off.

As long as ND is regularly competing for a CFP bid, the money will flowing.

Do you know a critical mass of actual Domers that attended the school (not merely T-shirt fans or Subway Alumni)? For better or worse, I do with a bunch of my neighbors and co-workers.

This isn't like a USC alum complaining about being in the Big Ten vs. Pac-12 or a Texas alum that may have reservations about the SEC.

For Notre Dame, independence is their core institutional identity. It's not a matter of just football - it's engrained in how they see themselves as a school.

Now, if ND is structurally prohibited from competing for a national championship without being a member of a conference (and it's got to be an outright structural prohibition, not merely more difficult), then I believe Domers would acknowledge that they have no choice other than to join a league.

Short of that being the case, though, Domers are a different breed. As long as the Domers believe that ND has a *choice* (and not making enough money isn't one of them because they'll send ND plenty of money), then they're going to vehemently reject conference membership and they'll vote with their dollars.

It might insane to you or me because conference membership is just a natural course of life for all of the rest of us, but the *institutional* identity piece for ND can't be underestimated. It's NOT just about football - that's what so many people that haven't dealt with directly with Domers need to understand.

There is also a central underlying factor here that nobody mentions.

ND people don't like and don't trust conferences, at all. Its a high level of distrust.

They think that conferences will not advance ND's best interests but will actually work to its detriment.

They think that conferences won't really welcome ND as a member, but only want ND just to wring money out of it, to control it and then work to minimize it.

Other fans don't seem to get that level of distrust that exists. Whether it is a legitimate fear or not, many ND people strongly believe that to be the case.

ND fans point to Nebraska and Penn State as examples. PSU has not had nearly the success as a Big Ten member as it did as a football independent.

That distrust is mostly directed at the Big Ten due to history, but it extends to the ACC and the SEC, all of them really.

ND wants to retain control over its program and not surrender it to people who may not have ND's best interests in mind.

ND holds tight to independence because it thinks joining a conference will damage its identity, its brand and the football program, in that order.

That distrust towards the B1G is warranted, based upon what happened to PSU and Nebraska (and to a lesser extent Rutgers and Md, who were marginalized until recently, just from a much lower starting point than PSU or Nebraska).

Contrast that with the SEC.

USC: from 1903 to 1991, they had 5 seasons with 8 or more wins. Since joining the SEC, they've won at least 8 games 9 times, including last year. It's not a catapult to the top, but it's certainly a significant improvement.

A&M: Went from a pretty decent brand in the SWC/Big 12 to a Major Brand over the past decade. Put another way, PSU was WAY ahead of us in 1991, but today I think that you could say we're roughly equal Brands. PSU has fallen a bit and A&M has elevated a bit, and our conferences helped us both along in those moves.

Arkansas: Won at least 10 games 6 times from 1906 to 1991. Won 10 games 3 times since joining the SEC. Not a huge boost nor huge dropoff on the field, though overall program strength is probably a bit better than it was in the SWC days (which was already pretty good).

Missouri: Despite recent struggles, they've actually done pretty well in the SEC. 4 10-win seasons pre-2012, 2 since joining the SEC. 5 of the 6 total 10 win seasons were under Pinkel, who won 2 SEC East titles. Clearly, they can compete for and win Championships in the SEC just as well as they could in their previous conferences. Their recent struggles (~ .500 in the 7 years since 2016) are far more likely due to difficulty replacing Pinkel than difficulty from being in the SEC. Their Brand is certainly no worse off today than it was before they joined the SEC.

So, 2 clear success stories, 2 that, while maybe not rousing successes, are certainly better than the 4 B1G additions of the past 30+ years. Maybe it's just joining the B1G that ND should avoid. LMK if you want Sankey's #.

(05-08-2023 05:08 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-08-2023 03:45 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  The level of ingratitude among ND fans is mind boggling. The US Navy insured the Irish could play football in 1942, 1943, and 1944 and the result was a series with Annapolis that still persists today. The ACC ensured that ND had a football season, and they bellyached about it. I recall one poster even calling playing a conference schedule incestuous.

That was me. Sorry if ND fans don't like the idea of playing in a football conference and that bothers you.

(No, no...I am actually not)

Playing 9 ACC schools that year was as exciting as kissing your sister. So, yes....it felt "incestuous".

It was like playing the same school nine times. All were from the same conference, the same area of the country and seemed to all be the same.

Gratitude is not called for when two sophisticated parties enter into a one year business deal that benefits both parties.

Where is the ACC's gratitude for ND providing great ratings all season and a record viewership for its title game?

Where is the ACC's gratitude for 2020 being its best financial one in history because ND was involved? The ACC got a record payout that year.

It was a cold, calculated business deal, nothing more. It wasn't a handout. The ACC did this for its own business reasons. So did ND.

It was not like the in laws putting one up for free for a year, meals included. So, you can take your "gratitude" and........

P.S. I also believe that after almost 80 seasons since then, ND has paid that Navy debt dozens of times over and the yearly series should be discontinued.

Yeah, ND owes nothing to the ACC. I hope we reduce the amount of games to 3, would love more SEC games.