Man, it was a nonviolent, pacifist act of protest that has been performed as high up as the professional level across the U.S. ETSU is the only school community that suffered such a severe knee jerk reaction. Y’all don’t wanna hear these guys or see them speak up on race. How dare they bite the hand that feeds. How dare they not protest according to your sensibilities and preferred policies. Institutional racism to the T with a nice fat deflection of “our veterans!” whom if anything spoke up in defense of the protestors rights!

(02-21-2023 02:29 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  The coach, Carter, and team captains met with Noland and he turned them down, so they took it to the basketball court? Can you back that up with facts?

So those young players (Carter obviously wouldn't have; shay is an open question) thought all that thru, had the foresight to request to meet with Noland (but got turned down), so decided to sabotage their team and season? Can you back THAT up with facts?!? Thats a patently absurd construct.

Man, I'm an idealist thru and thru, but that wouldn't have been even a *thought* on their radar. This didn't come out of the blue - it was going on all over the country. You're projecting a mature, experienced, been-thru-negotiations set of young men that didn't exist - yet. Hindsight is said to be 20/20. Heck - it's not even 20/20 *now*. Do you think they had even a remote clue Joe Honda would do what he did? So are they mind-readers, or are they all advanced psychology majors? Not in a million years would that reaction have occurred to them.. Sure...........if the exact same situation came up now, things would go differently. Now that the "magic petition system" is in place.

(02-21-2023 03:33 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Man, it was a nonviolent, pacifist act of protest that has been performed as high up as the professional level across the U.S. ETSU is the only school community that suffered such a severe knee jerk reaction. Y’all don’t wanna hear these guys or see them speak up on race. How dare they bite the hand that feeds. How dare they not protest according to your sensibilities and preferred policies. Institutional racism to the T with a nice fat deflection of “our veterans!” whom if anything spoke up in defense of the protestors rights!

Still whining I see

(02-21-2023 04:45 PM)squeak Wrote:  

(02-21-2023 03:33 PM)shampoo Wrote:  Man, it was a nonviolent, pacifist act of protest that has been performed as high up as the professional level across the U.S. ETSU is the only school community that suffered such a severe knee jerk reaction. Y’all don’t wanna hear these guys or see them speak up on race. How dare they bite the hand that feeds. How dare they not protest according to your sensibilities and preferred policies. Institutional racism to the T with a nice fat deflection of “our veterans!” whom if anything spoke up in defense of the protestors rights!

Still whining I see

Whining?? What’s whining about what he said?? Good god.

But nice try.

First of all, doc, I agree with your assessment of the Furman game. They played hard, and are one or two key players away from a championship caliber team. They have hung with *and have or almost have* beaten championship teams. Who’s in first place in the Big South? UNCA. And the Rajun Cajuns are in 3rd in the Sunbelt. This is not a bad team, and I am reserving the right to judge the coaching on this very young team.

Regarding the kneeling, here’s my take. These players wanted to do something to protest racial injustice, Shay wanted them to buy in to him as a first year coach, so he went along with their suggestion. He was smart enough to ask Carter and Noland first, though, but unfortunately their answer was to keep them in the locker room. But they didn’t consider the away games, which is where they were seen kneeling.

Noland didn’t want to suppress their protest, and thus be potentially labeled a racist, but he was also smart enough to know that it wouldn’t go over well here. So when it got caught on camera, he was in a pickle. Either get all the players mad at you and vote for your ouster, or get the public and local politicians mad and have you fired.

What *should* have happened was the administration should have shown some leadership and talked about ways to protest and actually have your message heard. Instead, their message got completely missed, and it became about dishonoring the flag instead of combating racial injustice. The players didn’t mean for that to happen, nor did they see it coming. The adults in the room should have provided more guidance.

Instead, it hurt the university and decreased donations that give, in many cases, students of color opportunities. That’s the real harm here.

(02-21-2023 06:58 PM)Efan Wrote:  First of all, doc, I agree with your assessment of the Furman game. They played hard, and are one or two key players away from a championship caliber team. They have hung with *and have or almost have* beaten championship teams. Who’s in first place in the Big South? UNCA. And the Rajun Cajuns are in 3rd in the Sunbelt. This is not a bad team, and I am reserving the right to judge the coaching on this very young team.

Regarding the kneeling, here’s my take. These players wanted to do something to protest racial injustice, Shay wanted them to buy in to him as a first year coach, so he went along with their suggestion. He was smart enough to ask Carter and Noland first, though, but unfortunately their answer was to keep them in the locker room. But they didn’t consider the away games, which is where they were seen kneeling.

Noland didn’t want to suppress their protest, and thus be potentially labeled a racist, but he was also smart enough to know that it wouldn’t go over well here. So when it got caught on camera, he was in a pickle. Either get all the players mad at you and vote for your ouster, or get the public and local politicians mad and have you fired.

What *should* have happened was the administration should have shown some leadership and talked about ways to protest and actually have your message heard. Instead, their message got completely missed, and it became about dishonoring the flag instead of combating racial injustice. The players didn’t mean for that to happen, nor did they see it coming. The adults in the room should have provided more guidance.

Instead, it hurt the university and decreased donations that give, in many cases, students of color opportunities. That’s the real harm here.

OPINION: The Tennessean (3/27/22) Conclusion:

“The young men who engage in this silent protest of the ill-treatment of their fellow Americans, are acting in the best traditions of this country.

Knowing the backlash would come, ETSU’s men’s basketball team acted with dignity, respect, courage, and empathy. These are qualities we all desire in our neighbors.

Dr. Daryl A. Carter is a Professor of History and Director of Africana Studies at East Tennessee State University.

Dr. Jean Swindle is an Assistant Professor of Educational Foundations & Special Education at East Tennessee State University.”

I don’t disagree with Carter and Swindle with their conclusion. But, the method of protest during that divisive time did indeed hurt ETSU as an institution — certainly ETSU athletics-basketball. Thing about it — those involved are long gone. ETSU continues to recover. It didn’t have to end this way.

It ended the way it did. No one emerged unscathed. We as a nation have to separate institutional racism (a systematic, generational issue) as a separate but germane offshoot of the more ugly, overt racism we all know and can flag at face value. The Civil Rights Movement was only the start.

Please accept my humble apology for any overly impassioned debate/arguments that may verge on the edge of personal.

(02-20-2023 08:11 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 06:36 PM)shampoo Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 04:30 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 02:19 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  I think some of you all were watching a different game. I thought this was one of our better performances of the season. Up there with the Chatt-town win. *Other than* our usual TO-fest (this time almost exclusively the first half *of* the first half, with 7 or 8 just in that time frame) and failures to finish* (see below) (which was murderous, altho they were contested shots), we were inspired, aggressive, played with urgency (......until* (see below)) and intensity. I thought we played with a warrior's mentality - for the most part.

We shot over 50% overall; 50% from deep; essentially equaled them on the boards despite Slawson's herculean manliness; shot FTs good enough (.......until* (see below); and played 'as a team' better than most games this season --*without our point guard*! We had Furple worried in the second half several times, and their *incredible* shot-making from 3 precisely when the tide was turning - again and again - saved the game for them. Credit to Furple for being able to do that.

Respectfully, BigIslanBuc is just wrong in saying how bad this Furman team is. They're not a 'great' or 'elite' team, by historic SoCon standards, but they aren't a weak team at all. They have temendous experience, they have superior intelligence on passing and ball movement. Superior. That's good coaching. Duh. And yes, they're better than we are at that. But in that regard, our ball movement was perhaps as good as it's been all year. Everybody was trusting everybody else.

What I find amazing is that nobody - nobody - has even mentioned the fatigue that set in the last 6-8 minutes of the game - especially the last 4-5. Haynes was wiped out, and as we saw, cramping badly. His utter fatigue was why he wasn't remotely close on those last 2 (VERY critical) FTs he missed. Yet he played his heart out non-stop. Even King was tired (he played the full 40 minutes). Those guys competed as hard as they have all year - with better cohesiveness. Several commenters herein have been waiting all year for improvement. Well, I saw it yesterday, even if some of you all didn't. But yes, it's too late to "save the season". We're not gonna win the tournament. Our 16 seed ain't gonna happen.

Were there gaffes and weaknesses? Of course. Tipler's errant pass late was a biggie, but that stuff's just gonna happen. He ended with 6 assists, considerably more than Strothers usually has. Several of them *beautiful* interior dumps to Seymour and Haynes for dunks. We were *terribly* sloppy in the first half, but shot well enough to stay in it. We could actually have been up 5-7 without that sloppiness. But then things got cleaned up. We continually got burned with Princeton-esque back cuts in the second half. Again, credit to Furple/Ritchie for calling those. And how many 1-2 ft. shots did we miss? A dozen? That's been an ETSU trademark since about the middle of the bartow regime. But at least yesterday all but 1(?) were heavily contested. Don't know how to explain the *degree* to which that happens, but it's maddening.

This was a high-quality college basketball game, but with clear shortcomings by both teams. It was worthy of telecast, thankfully. I don't know if this will continue the last few games here, but I saw maturity; fire; cohesiveness; but no laziness (yes Haynes got beat one time downcourt (barely), but overall we weren't weak there).

Losing 10 games by 4 points or less is an amazing stat. Sure, coaching likely is responsible for some of those losses. But so is bad luck. And, personally, altho I don't intellectually believe it, of course, I still wonder if there isn't some higher power punishing us for past transgressions. It has the feel of somehow "paying dues". That doesn't help the players on the team right now, other than possibly going into the future.

*finish -- meaning finishing at the basket (successfully completing a shot attempt at point blank range, not the "finishing" SWVaBucsFan mistook a few years ago to mean closing out the game).

*until -- I actually already addressed this above. The "until" meaning until compromising fatigue finally achieved it's purchase.

Geez - there you go again - being punished for past transgressions? Shay and Carter were directly responsible for the divisive, ugly politics descending on the basketball program. No matter how just the cause, and it was just — it was their responsibility to protect the basketball program while finding a better, more effective, and more appropriate-teaching way of exercising the First Amendment. ETSU as an institution IS NOT being punished for any transgressions in that it committed none while the individuals responsible for that political disaster actually got bonus pay on their way out. Go figure. ETSU, I believe, ended up holding the proverbial bag and is still suffering the CONSEQUENCES of the FAILURES and DISLOYALTY of those individuals who are likely still laughing all the way to the bank.

Kinda Trump-esque language. All caps. Disloyalty. Yada yada. The players had a right to exercise freedom of speech, no one knew how to manage that real time. A car dealer with some money made it a bigger deal than it was, that’s the counter point. Loyalty to Johnson City Honda, Johnson City? Give me a break. Give me another example of a university’s community responding so brashly to a similar controversy. We got left holding a bag that a car dealer wants his redundant business name on.

Still, something better could have been done. Once you see how loud the car dealer’s revving the engines, gotta do something. What to do is just so sticky and unclear.

As far as last name’s near perfect performance, classic mistakes cost the win. And it took a near perfect performance in the first place just for this team to be *competitive* with a standard good team. All year these performances have been followed by backslides. Get ready for a rough couple games, potentially.

Trump-sequel language? That old labeling, name calling, and stereotyping is getting real worn. Absolutely, Shay was disloyal to ETSU his boss and signer of his paycheck, and apparently Carter at minimum looked the other way. I’m retired - but my employer would have fired me for such disloyalty, negative backlash, and stupidity. This was not about the students and their free speech rights, implying ETSU as an institution was somehow denying them or somehow complicit with denying them that right (as far from the truth that it gets) - it’s all about the lack of leadership of Shay and Carter, and I think ETSU basketball is still suffering the consequences of that.

Buc66 could not be more wrong. Observers around the country predicted ETSU would fall immediately to obscurity. What parent in their right mind would want their child to play at a school that can’t handle a kneel? If I had been Shay, I would have gotten out as quick as I could. I also thought Oliver was crazy for taking the job. He did, and he’s living with the consequences.

Let me ask this. If kneeling had the desired effect, why don’t you see it anymore? The reason is because folks are realizing it is even more divisive. It does absolutely *nothing* to bring disparate parties to the table. Zero.

(02-21-2023 08:35 PM)kevster Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 08:11 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 06:36 PM)shampoo Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 04:30 PM)Buc66 Wrote:  

(02-20-2023 02:19 PM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  I think some of you all were watching a different game. I thought this was one of our better performances of the season. Up there with the Chatt-town win. *Other than* our usual TO-fest (this time almost exclusively the first half *of* the first half, with 7 or 8 just in that time frame) and failures to finish* (see below) (which was murderous, altho they were contested shots), we were inspired, aggressive, played with urgency (......until* (see below)) and intensity. I thought we played with a warrior's mentality - for the most part.

We shot over 50% overall; 50% from deep; essentially equaled them on the boards despite Slawson's herculean manliness; shot FTs good enough (.......until* (see below); and played 'as a team' better than most games this season --*without our point guard*! We had Furple worried in the second half several times, and their *incredible* shot-making from 3 precisely when the tide was turning - again and again - saved the game for them. Credit to Furple for being able to do that.

Respectfully, BigIslanBuc is just wrong in saying how bad this Furman team is. They're not a 'great' or 'elite' team, by historic SoCon standards, but they aren't a weak team at all. They have temendous experience, they have superior intelligence on passing and ball movement. Superior. That's good coaching. Duh. And yes, they're better than we are at that. But in that regard, our ball movement was perhaps as good as it's been all year. Everybody was trusting everybody else.

What I find amazing is that nobody - nobody - has even mentioned the fatigue that set in the last 6-8 minutes of the game - especially the last 4-5. Haynes was wiped out, and as we saw, cramping badly. His utter fatigue was why he wasn't remotely close on those last 2 (VERY critical) FTs he missed. Yet he played his heart out non-stop. Even King was tired (he played the full 40 minutes). Those guys competed as hard as they have all year - with better cohesiveness. Several commenters herein have been waiting all year for improvement. Well, I saw it yesterday, even if some of you all didn't. But yes, it's too late to "save the season". We're not gonna win the tournament. Our 16 seed ain't gonna happen.

Were there gaffes and weaknesses? Of course. Tipler's errant pass late was a biggie, but that stuff's just gonna happen. He ended with 6 assists, considerably more than Strothers usually has. Several of them *beautiful* interior dumps to Seymour and Haynes for dunks. We were *terribly* sloppy in the first half, but shot well enough to stay in it. We could actually have been up 5-7 without that sloppiness. But then things got cleaned up. We continually got burned with Princeton-esque back cuts in the second half. Again, credit to Furple/Ritchie for calling those. And how many 1-2 ft. shots did we miss? A dozen? That's been an ETSU trademark since about the middle of the bartow regime. But at least yesterday all but 1(?) were heavily contested. Don't know how to explain the *degree* to which that happens, but it's maddening.

This was a high-quality college basketball game, but with clear shortcomings by both teams. It was worthy of telecast, thankfully. I don't know if this will continue the last few games here, but I saw maturity; fire; cohesiveness; but no laziness (yes Haynes got beat one time downcourt (barely), but overall we weren't weak there).

Losing 10 games by 4 points or less is an amazing stat. Sure, coaching likely is responsible for some of those losses. But so is bad luck. And, personally, altho I don't intellectually believe it, of course, I still wonder if there isn't some higher power punishing us for past transgressions. It has the feel of somehow "paying dues". That doesn't help the players on the team right now, other than possibly going into the future.

*finish -- meaning finishing at the basket (successfully completing a shot attempt at point blank range, not the "finishing" SWVaBucsFan mistook a few years ago to mean closing out the game).

*until -- I actually already addressed this above. The "until" meaning until compromising fatigue finally achieved it's purchase.

Geez - there you go again - being punished for past transgressions? Shay and Carter were directly responsible for the divisive, ugly politics descending on the basketball program. No matter how just the cause, and it was just — it was their responsibility to protect the basketball program while finding a better, more effective, and more appropriate-teaching way of exercising the First Amendment. ETSU as an institution IS NOT being punished for any transgressions in that it committed none while the individuals responsible for that political disaster actually got bonus pay on their way out. Go figure. ETSU, I believe, ended up holding the proverbial bag and is still suffering the CONSEQUENCES of the FAILURES and DISLOYALTY of those individuals who are likely still laughing all the way to the bank.

Kinda Trump-esque language. All caps. Disloyalty. Yada yada. The players had a right to exercise freedom of speech, no one knew how to manage that real time. A car dealer with some money made it a bigger deal than it was, that’s the counter point. Loyalty to Johnson City Honda, Johnson City? Give me a break. Give me another example of a university’s community responding so brashly to a similar controversy. We got left holding a bag that a car dealer wants his redundant business name on.

Still, something better could have been done. Once you see how loud the car dealer’s revving the engines, gotta do something. What to do is just so sticky and unclear.

As far as last name’s near perfect performance, classic mistakes cost the win. And it took a near perfect performance in the first place just for this team to be *competitive* with a standard good team. All year these performances have been followed by backslides. Get ready for a rough couple games, potentially.

Trump-sequel language? That old labeling, name calling, and stereotyping is getting real worn. Absolutely, Shay was disloyal to ETSU his boss and signer of his paycheck, and apparently Carter at minimum looked the other way. I’m retired - but my employer would have fired me for such disloyalty, negative backlash, and stupidity. This was not about the students and their free speech rights, implying ETSU as an institution was somehow denying them or somehow complicit with denying them that right (as far from the truth that it gets) - it’s all about the lack of leadership of Shay and Carter, and I think ETSU basketball is still suffering the consequences of that.

Buc66 could not be more wrong. Observers around the country predicted ETSU would fall immediately to obscurity. What parent in their right mind would want their child to play at a school that can’t handle a kneel? If I had been Shay, I would have gotten out as quick as I could. I also thought Oliver was crazy for taking the job. He did, and he’s living with the consequences.

Which NFL team does Colin Kaepernick play for? Why isn’t this guy playing in the NFL? He certainly has the talent. Or, why isn’t he at least in the NFL central office public relations or an NFL TV commentator? Why hasn’t the NFL embraced him and made him their poster child? DIRTY, ROTTON POLITICS can harm that product and the MONEY flow as well. People don’t go to NFL games or watch them on TV to be dragged into politics - no matter their party affiliation. SAME GOES FOR COLLEGE SPORTS - THAT’’S MY ARGUMENT.

None of this has any thing to do with the current coaching staff. Shay is gone over two years now and is back to winning big time games with Steve Forbes on a national stage in the ACC. He was an assistant coach who could not head coach. Then we hired another assistant coach who could not head coach and is on the verge of losing 20 games in a season. If the events of over two years ago meant anything in the present then Virginia would not be the sixth ranked team in the nation and Kentucky could never have just beaten the mighty ut two times this year. The sooner the Bucs can get a qualified head coach the sooner the Bucs can go to Asheville with a chance to win a championship. Go Bucs!

(02-21-2023 10:25 PM)Efan Wrote:  Let me ask this. If kneeling had the desired effect, why don’t you see it anymore? The reason is because folks are realizing it is even more divisive. It does absolutely *nothing* to bring disparate parties to the table. Zero.

You are correct. Too many antagonists constantly create issues in order to advance the politics of the aristocracy. I went by the LXI building in Johnson City's Keystone community yesterday and wondered how many of you were in there lending your time and resources. You know those things which actually make a difference to people you suggest to champion. The self-righteous bubble some of you live in is astonishing. If that triggers certain delicate sensibilities for some on this board, then you're not looking for solutions, you're only looking for attention.