(05-08-2022 01:35 AM)pono Wrote:  The emphasis on research is also divisive among the faculty community at most universities. UT historically was a well rounded school with good liberal arts departments, philosophy, as well as engineering, business, sciences, music, etc... Some of these disciplines are not research oriented and the focus on research in recent years has come at the expense of once proud departments. It's not just a UT thing but if you talk to retiring faculty in non-research oriented fields at most any school they will lament the current situation. Of course, at a place like MIT or Ga Tech that has an overall emphasis on research heavy fields this is fine. At your typical state school it looks more like a gutted English department. I know Ohio as a state was going in the direction of making the major state universities more niche schools instead of broad based. Not sure if that's still happening. I do wonder if the changing approach to college-seeing it more as a means to earnings potential than an intellectual and social growth period for the transition to adulthood-has led to the decline in enrollment. Certainly, the increasing costs of college have contributed.

The new AD sounds like a good catch, btw.

They're all research oriented. That's why they're called colleges. Innovated small business owners growing into large comsumer products corporations, they're often coming out of Liberal Arts, not the business school. So are computer programmers, efficiencies learning languages. Careers and degrees are not as straight forward as name.

A modern university IMO works like a stock market. Each college is a segment but they all interact if done well. You ride out the lows while trying to predict and prepare for the highs. You don't just try to predict the market, you try to drive the market.

CinciBearcat and I have had some good conversations here regards "niche" and downsizing. It's far too short minded to look at Liberal Arts and Education as low return investments. As an Engineer and seeing that autism that can pervade that mindset, I see the STEM driven Chairs and Depts trying to devalue non-STEM, thinking all that other stuff is a distraction, that Engineers and scientists that can read, write and enjoy arts are distracted Engineers and scientists. Even a very good President at my University tried to devalue English and they have the OWL program used all across the country. But it wasn't a good short term investment to him. Hopefully, smarter heads prevail. THE best Engineers I have come across, all had appreciation and participation in the Arts.

Again, IMO, Universities in general are not leveraging their Athletic Dept, their value to human condition research and research to product. That cuts across EVERY college. Physical, Mental and Social Health, athletes have led, defied the status quo; pundits and businesses follow.

UT can lead or they can continue to follow or more likely, be cut-out entirely. I guarantee that the Trustee board essentially run by that school in Columbus wants the Municipals to follow not lead so that all glory and money heads to real estate in Columbus.

(05-06-2022 06:28 PM)Lester Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:22 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 03:53 PM)Lester Wrote:  

(05-05-2022 02:53 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  with declining enrollment and resulting budget reductions at UT, there are going to be some serious limitations on finances related to all aspects of UT operations including Athletics. Some of which could be made up by rise in fund raising directly into Athletics, but will take significant increase in those funds to rise above the reduced revenue at UT that then reduces the largest portion of revenue into the Athletics budget-transfer of funds from UT operating budget directly into Athletics. I am not saying he can't move in new and innovative ways in regards to Athletics, just that the finances will cause limitations to those opportunities.

When is the last time that UT didn't claim dire financial circumstances? If it's true now, then they shouldn't have been whining for the last 30 years, and maybe I could take them more seriously.

enrollment is down 20% in last ten years-thats the fundamental problem, its that simple, vast majority of revenue is tied to enrollment, budget issues have been significant each year in last decade and will continue into near future

Yeah, I'm not really disputing what you say about current circumstances, as I'm not in a position to know. But UT has been ringing alarm bells about its finances for way more than the last ten years.

I have been here at UT for 23 years, and yes budget challenges exist each year but the continued rapid and severe drop in enrollment since 2010 has really driven concerns over significant and serious budget issues

(05-06-2022 06:31 PM)indianasniff Wrote:  Research growth fuels more research h not academics. The way to grow athletics is for alumni to write checks.

Problem is most Toledo alumni are from Toledo area, where leaders look around for others or the taxpayers to solve everything. Example. Riverfront development by a park district


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

agree 100%.... there is some "big money" in Toledo region, in some cases they are alumni, but donors have plenty of other interests and many have no interest in support UT Athletics but for their own reasons choose to support education, social causes, environment, etc.... Even if you look at donations to UT Foundation, most go to other causes besides Athletics.

Challenge UT Athletics has is pool of donors is not that deep, many of the top donors have already made lifetime donations or commitments. I am not saying new AD cannot increase donations, just that its going to be real challenge.

(05-10-2022 09:34 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:31 PM)indianasniff Wrote:  Research growth fuels more research h not academics. The way to grow athletics is for alumni to write checks.

Problem is most Toledo alumni are from Toledo area, where leaders look around for others or the taxpayers to solve everything. Example. Riverfront development by a park district


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

agree 100%.... there is some "big money" in Toledo region, in some cases they are alumni, but donors have plenty of other interests and many have no interest in support UT Athletics but for their own reasons choose to support education, social causes, environment, etc.... Even if you look at donations to UT Foundation, most go to other causes besides Athletics.

Challenge UT Athletics has is pool of donors is not that deep, many of the top donors have already made lifetime donations or commitments. I am not saying new AD cannot increase donations, just that its going to be real challenge.

They are also writing big checks to OSU and Michgan Athletics.

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 10:45 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-05-2022 03:40 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I'm thinking to hold pat on athletic investment and ask everything be directed into general operating or scholarship and research.

Athletic facilites as many have noted are some of the finest in this level. Concentrate on maintenance, retaining and attracting researchers and instructors in related fields. My view stated here is the same as the near 20 years I've been on message boards; concentrate on making athletics a means to research in health, prosthetics and orthotics. Create efficiencies through symbiotic relationships. The field of animal care is growing as fast as any. People are investing more into the health and repair of pets. I would grow that related area though now, that car is out of the bag. Other universities are creating mega hospitals addressing large and small animal care.

The university has to look for what's not being done and fill or create a niche demand. Research to product is what the survivalists are doing. It is what is attracting the best researchers. The UToledoes will lose trying to fulfill the role of Ohio St Mini.

My comment was only referring to ability of new AD to pursue initiatives that have costs involved and the university operating budget constraints that will limit those ambitions.

and UT will never have a vet school-state is not going to approve new programs that duplicate existing programs, in fact the opposite is underway examining and potentially eliminating current duplicate programs

Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 10:45 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  My comment was only referring to ability of new AD to pursue initiatives that have costs involved and the university operating budget constraints that will limit those ambitions.

and UT will never have a vet school-state is not going to approve new programs that duplicate existing programs, in fact the opposite is underway examining and potentially eliminating current duplicate programs

Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

Car wash or rummage sale? ;-)

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 10:45 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  My comment was only referring to ability of new AD to pursue initiatives that have costs involved and the university operating budget constraints that will limit those ambitions.

and UT will never have a vet school-state is not going to approve new programs that duplicate existing programs, in fact the opposite is underway examining and potentially eliminating current duplicate programs

Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

We'll see this fall. The Pres said that UT wasn't recruiting high school students until their senior years. Crazy as it seems.

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 10:45 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  My comment was only referring to ability of new AD to pursue initiatives that have costs involved and the university operating budget constraints that will limit those ambitions.

and UT will never have a vet school-state is not going to approve new programs that duplicate existing programs, in fact the opposite is underway examining and potentially eliminating current duplicate programs

Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

Gaslighting? Really? Ok.

"are welcome" generally isn't followed by "...don't bother..."

Your admission that you are part of the problem is admirable, even if unintended.

Yes, the problems the University is having appear to be the people sitting in on meetings for the last 23 years. Those stuck on how the budget is structured as opposed to how it could be structured. Those people will not prepare for the future if that requires approaches and ideas that do not validate their decisions of the past.

Budget is driven by function and purpose, not "enrollment." Those thinking enrollment drives budget provide no hope nor innovation. They are stuck in what has been dictated by Ohio St and ultimately Columbus real estate to favor Ohio St and Columbus real estate. They're toadies.

Listen more. Talk less. We're not here to validate you. We, who you've marginalized are proposing thoughts that would represent what we'd like to see. What we think are possible. We, certainly I, are noting what we've seen work other places that we think could apply at the University we care about, regardless the dismissive behavior of those already entrenched.

Universities exist and do fine with 5,000 students. Therefore, UT should be able to prosper if its enrollment declines. The problem, of course, is that professors never lose their jobs, even when declining enrollment means that they are no longer needed. Nor, for that matter, do administrators generally lose their jobs when a school shrinks. Instead, the university kindly waits for people to quit and then doesn't replace them, which is an inefficient way to make the size of the work force appropriate for the size of the student body. Plus, the wrong people always quit, leaving departments without important specialties covered. To the extent that faculty are part of governing the university, their self-interest controls their thought process.

(05-10-2022 10:02 AM)RangerRocket Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

Car wash or rummage sale? ;-)

both

(05-10-2022 10:26 AM)DetroitRocket Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

We'll see this fall. The Pres said that UT wasn't recruiting high school students until their senior years. Crazy as it seems.

yes UT needs to do much better at using a wide range of recruitment efforts and approaches, but as it stands today enrollment projections for fall (which by the previous May the trend is pretty much set) show continued decline-and the resulting drop in those revenues already built into FY23 budget to be presented to Board next month. Those aforementioned recruitment efforts are really needed but will take time to reap improvements. There is no easy or quick fix and such enrollment challenges are being faced by most universities, especially small and mid size institutions across the US and moreso in midwest/Great Lakes due to demographics with fewer direct from HS applicants as that population is in decline.

(05-10-2022 10:48 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 09:47 AM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 06:33 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 05:27 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-06-2022 02:50 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Toledo wouldn't be the first primarily Engineering school to pursue medical related research without having a medical school. They will get on the animal bandwagon if they don't want to be dusted by that school down south.

It's not necessary to have a Veterinarian school. It's necessary to have an open mind and pursue where the money is. Weve had this discussion about doing things the old way and being stuck in what has been done. It's a deserved death or worse, name change.

They pursue grants in which they can apply present knowledge to new applications and build from there. Pick a small segment of study and get really good at it. Prosthetics for animals is going to be big.

Extending quality of life is a growing research to product opportunity. That's engineering. Find me old people without too much free cash and pets. Not going to be easy. Human and animal kinentics... straight up symbiot of athletics.

prosthetics is minor area of current research focus and funding (and there are already many excellent programs in US) and 1) I don't see how any of that helps raise millions to support athletics-which of course was the focus on my original post. UT has grown research in last few years, which is great, but UT operating budget is still driven by enrollment, address recruitment and retention of students is key to address UT finances. 2) Research, especially in STEM is very expensive, brings in funding but also generates large amounts of costs. 3) Its not easy to simple grow research revenues to make up different in open enrollment public state institution.

1) I know
2) I know
3) I know, people looking for easy don't do it. Yet, it's done.

If some have their way of easy, UT will continue its path to over grown community college. If operating budget is being driven by enrollment, the University needs new people running the school. Enrollment should be nothing more than a passenger.

Public universities in the US have budgets driven by enrollment, that includes here in Ohio and in fact even at OSU where revenue from enrollment (tuition, fees, services and state share of instruction) is more that external research funding revenue.

UT has grown external research by significant amount in last decade.... ("UToledo Research Funding Increases 18% in One Year, 70% in Five Years"...The University of Toledo’s research enterprise continues to surge as research dollars for the 2021 fiscal year total more than $65 million, an 18.3% increase in one year and 70% higher than research awards five years ago. Federal research grants alone jumped 20.9% in one year, which made up 83% of total award funding in the 2021 fiscal year." ... which is fantastic.
Growth in new and innovative research areas is great and needed, must continue....

But even that growth has not reduced the revenue shortfalls and need for UT operating budget cuts (as most research funding is pass through to cover research expenses which in STEM is very high-equipment, salaries).

Growing research, fund raising, and other revenues is important and needed BUT fundamentally will not close the budget gaps created by continued decline in enrollment. Like every other public university in the US, UT needs to address enrollment issues (recruitment and retention) as the main means to stabilize finances and have potential to grow the institution. My informed perspective here is 23 years at UT including many meetings, reports, discussions and efforts around the budget with my direct involvement. Other views and opinions are welcome but unless you have a level of detailed understanding of a complex $800+ million budget, include revenue streams, its hard to contribute ideas that actually have merit if you are not aware of even how the UT operating budget is structured.

Gaslighting? Really? Ok.

"are welcome" generally isn't followed by "...don't bother..."

Your admission that you are part of the problem is admirable, even if unintended.

Yes, the problems the University is having appear to be the people sitting in on meetings for the last 23 years. Those stuck on how the budget is structured as opposed to how it could be structured. Those people will not prepare for the future if that requires approaches and ideas that do not validate their decisions of the past.

Budget is driven by function and purpose, not "enrollment." Those thinking enrollment drives budget provide no hope nor innovation. They are stuck in what has been dictated by Ohio St and ultimately Columbus real estate to favor Ohio St and Columbus real estate. They're toadies.

Listen more. Talk less. We're not here to validate you. We, who you've marginalized are proposing thoughts that would represent what we'd like to see. What we think are possible. We, certainly I, are noting what we've seen work other places that we think could apply at the University we care about, regardless the dismissive behavior of those already entrenched.

I have led successful efforts to increase enrollment and retention, along with many others, feel free to direct your comments at those colleges at UT who are seeing larger declines. And I welcome any ideas, opinions and suggestions, just with the expectation that at least one is informed as to the basics with university budgets (such as largest revenue does come from student enrollment, even at OSU).

How would you feel if I posted here regarding limitations, issues and challenges in the company and professional field you work in, while not having the any of the understanding or background in that area? Or make assumptions or statements as the basis for your opinions that are factually completely incorrect?

My guess is you would take objection and make effort to correct and inform me otherwise, so please do likewise and listen to what I am saying. If you have ideas or experience with budgets and finances at other small/mid sized public universities please share (and BTW Purdue is not a comparable peer institution to UT by any measure).

Budget is driven by function and purpose, not "enrollment." ---- the primary mission of UT is to educate students and thus like every other public university in order to do so requires revenue to support that mission, one that is supported largely by enrollment, has been the principle of public university budgets for many decades and will be into the future. There simply are no other revenue streams that can be expanded to meet the shortfall from an enrollment decline, even cutting expenses including staff and faculty will not be enough. Even with a large increase in external research funding (see previous post), that additional revenue fall well short of making up decline caused by lower enrollment. Every public institution in US faces this exact same challenge. Its not unique to UT and in fact in many other universities the problem is even more severe and future even more dim.

(05-10-2022 01:09 PM)Lester Wrote:  Universities exist and do fine with 5,000 students. Therefore, UT should be able to prosper if its enrollment declines. The problem, of course, is that professors never lose their jobs, even when declining enrollment means that they are no longer needed. Nor, for that matter, do administrators generally lose their jobs when a school shrinks. Instead, the university kindly waits for people to quit and then doesn't replace them, which is an inefficient way to make the size of the work force appropriate for the size of the student body. Plus, the wrong people always quit, leaving departments without important specialties covered. To the extent that faculty are part of governing the university, their self-interest controls their thought process.

Actually small universities of 5,000 students or less are closing at a rapid rate in the US, same struggle in terms of recruiting and retaining students as smaller tuition revenue stream is quickly falling short of what is needed to support those students (increased operating costs). By no measure are they doing fine, in fact the current and upcoming future prospects for that size of institution are the most dire. And fewer students, fewer staff and faculty at UT will have a significant impact on the local and regional economy in the Toledo region as millions of dollars in annual spending and tax revenues will disappear with no known replacement. Residents, businesses and tax payers in the Toledo region should want UT to grow and not decline as their economy and community who otherwise suffer significantly.

That's a lot of hyperactive response there PaulJ. We're just simple folk, you've said so. I'll pick this one, seems easiest for my simple brain to follow.

(05-10-2022 02:50 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  yes UT needs to do much better at using a wide range of recruitment efforts and approaches, but as it stands today enrollment projections for fall (which by the previous May the trend is pretty much set) show continued decline-and the resulting drop in those revenues already built into FY23 budget to be presented to Board next month. Those aforementioned recruitment efforts are really needed but will take time to reap improvements. There is no easy or quick fix and such enrollment challenges are being faced by most universities, especially small and mid size institutions across the US and moreso in midwest/Great Lakes due to demographics with fewer direct from HS applicants as that population is in decline.

Those inside views are appreciated. We’re probably all aware the macro issues.

We’re a message board. We’re not (I presume) UT coaches, ADs, Presidents. We bring supposition and brainstorm off each other. Solutions often come from the ignorant, not bound by decades of one-way of doing things that used to work. Solutions often come from unexpected quarter. Smart leaders listen, facilitate and encourage that interaction, they don’t poison it with “that’s not how we do it.” IF something practical comes from it? Well all the better.

Anything I bring comes from personal experience, not UT Administrative work. I bring things I’ve seen work elsewhere from institutions fighting those same macro issues with success in some areas. Less so in others.

The business of University is changing. We’re seeing this dramatically in the Athletic Depts. Those universities that do not lead, do not invest in new approach, become next decade’s community college, as those people in Columbus wish it to be. They want ONE major city, ONE major public university. My belief is that serves only the privileged, leaving others subservient.

UToledo will do well to bring people into decision making that see purpose drives budgets, not enrollments. They would do well to see future possibilities for research to product and LEAD towards those. They would do well to find inefficiencies in operating instead of counting on the next larger government money grab that results in the maintenance costs that far outweigh the original “free” money.

Athletics is a reflection of the human condition. These and those in the military are the ones operating at the edges of physical, mental and social well-being. If you can fix them, you can fix anyone. Research should be an integral part of the athletic dept. and military enrollment because it meets purpose and would make UToledo unique. Budget will follow.

Athletics and any resulting academic and research opportunities that come from them are great BUT they are not going to be enough to drive the mission or purpose of the institution or generate a significant amount of revenue that offsets enrollment decline. Ideas, suggestions and brainstorming are great and welcome but just realize understanding the fundamental aspects of a $800 million budget and the major revenue streams is also important to the discussion. And there are plenty of people looking at all aspects of the budget and operations, including new and innovative revenues, cutting costs and inefficiencies (has been decline in UT employees of about 20% in last decade+). Athletics and related research have been and should be pursued as opportunities for investment and to generate revenue but they are only ever going to be a small part of the solution and future at UT.

One comment, so as to not catch any ricochets...but we are already doing (and seeing the fiscal benefits of) research carried out in joint manner between athletics and engineering [in this case, specifically biomedical engineering], and through institutional partnership.

ECORE has been in function for right around a decade now, balancing a whole bunch of research areas including biomechanics of rehabilitation and surgical recovery from injury, exercise implementation and equipment patents, surgical patents for orthopedic equipment and processes specifically to aid in the correction and rehabilitation of injuries (specific focus on athletic injuries). They faculty in BIOE and UTMC have cleared right around $31M in patent recuperation, research overhead, spin-off companies and their payback dollars, and training/speaking fees over that decade, that's not including the money shared in partnership with the two institutions who jointly manage the Center (and any potential gifts given to the operation from donors or foundations). So there is absolutely a way to budget dependency through operations like that...unfortunately, we do still have to focus on enrollment, as that is the lifeblood of the University, and any body that loses enough blood cannot live regardless of how great the organs, appendages, and whatnot are. No, $3M~ per year isn't going to make or break a University budget, but it will certainly help float other operations...and could be a bouncing off point for other areas of research through reputation. Yes, enrollment will always drive the bus, but that doesn't mean we should completely disregard scholarly activity and the benefits of its expansion to try to siphon off a dwindling resource...that's basically what we're doing in the energy sector right now, and we're reaping those benefits.

(05-11-2022 02:19 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  One comment, so as to not catch any ricochets...but we are already doing (and seeing the fiscal benefits of) research carried out in joint manner between athletics and engineering [in this case, specifically biomedical engineering], and through institutional partnership.

ECORE has been in function for right around a decade now, balancing a whole bunch of research areas including biomechanics of rehabilitation and surgical recovery from injury, exercise implementation and equipment patents, surgical patents for orthopedic equipment and processes specifically to aid in the correction and rehabilitation of injuries (specific focus on athletic injuries). They faculty in BIOE and UTMC have cleared right around $31M in patent recuperation, research overhead, spin-off companies and their payback dollars, and training/speaking fees over that decade, that's not including the money shared in partnership with the two institutions who jointly manage the Center (and any potential gifts given to the operation from donors or foundations). So there is absolutely a way to budget dependency through operations like that...unfortunately, we do still have to focus on enrollment, as that is the lifeblood of the University, and any body that loses enough blood cannot live regardless of how great the organs, appendages, and whatnot are. No, $3M~ per year isn't going to make or break a University budget, but it will certainly help float other operations...and could be a bouncing off point for other areas of research through reputation. Yes, enrollment will always drive the bus, but that doesn't mean we should completely disregard scholarly activity and the benefits of its expansion to try to siphon off a dwindling resource...that's basically what we're doing in the energy sector right now, and we're reaping those benefits.

my mistake if I suggested or implied that UT completely disregard scholarly activity and its expansion as that was not my intent..very supportive of such efforts and initiatives (and involved in some myself), only point I was trying to make here-which you also highlighted-that even with recent and likely continued growth in research funding revenue, decline in enrollment leaves huge revenue hole to be filled and focusing on retention and recruitment of students is essential to addressing that budget gap, increased revenue from research will not be sufficient-as that issue is at all public universities in US and here in Ohio (even OSU where revenue from students is more than external research funding) - dependence on enrollment.

(05-10-2022 03:12 PM)PaulJ Wrote:  

(05-10-2022 01:09 PM)Lester Wrote:  Universities exist and do fine with 5,000 students. Therefore, UT should be able to prosper if its enrollment declines. The problem, of course, is that professors never lose their jobs, even when declining enrollment means that they are no longer needed. Nor, for that matter, do administrators generally lose their jobs when a school shrinks. Instead, the university kindly waits for people to quit and then doesn't replace them, which is an inefficient way to make the size of the work force appropriate for the size of the student body. Plus, the wrong people always quit, leaving departments without important specialties covered. To the extent that faculty are part of governing the university, their self-interest controls their thought process.

Actually small universities of 5,000 students or less are closing at a rapid rate in the US, same struggle in terms of recruiting and retaining students as smaller tuition revenue stream is quickly falling short of what is needed to support those students (increased operating costs). By no measure are they doing fine, in fact the current and upcoming future prospects for that size of institution are the most dire. And fewer students, fewer staff and faculty at UT will have a significant impact on the local and regional economy in the Toledo region as millions of dollars in annual spending and tax revenues will disappear with no known replacement. Residents, businesses and tax payers in the Toledo region should want UT to grow and not decline as their economy and community who otherwise suffer significantly.

Sure, it's better for the city of UT is a thriving university of 30,000 than if it is a thriving university of 10,000. Nonetheless, if the university enrollment is shrinking, that does not necessarily mean that the university needs to be broke. The problem, as I said before, is that universities, unlike businesses, are not capable of downsizing efficiently. Professors are protected. I have seen this and know it to be true.