(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

(02-25-2020 08:16 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 07:10 AM)TripleA Wrote:  "Massive" new taxes, lawsuits on the fossil fuel industry, a fee on every stock trade 5 times current brokerage fees, and a projected savings of $70-80T by "saving the planet."

Among other similar proposals, and all with little or no data to support their viability.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-...xplanation

After which Markets will crash, unemployment will skyrocket, and big business will move out of the country. 2008 will be a wet dream compared to what this would do to the economy.

How/why in F*ck does he think everyone will just bend over and pay up without fighting back. "Rob from the rich and don't give it to the poor" is a recipe for disaster.....

All of this will happen instantly the day Bernie is elected. Business will not wait to see what Bernie can or can't do, they will react immediately to the environment that is coming.

Don't believe it? Look at the Trump economy. As soon as he was elected it exploded. Everyone was ready to act, and BOOM as soon as pro-business leadership took power.

They will be ready to act if Bernie is elected too. It will happen so fast that none of us will be able to protect ourselves. Better do it before the general.

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

I didn't vote for Trump the first time, and I won't vote for him this time, but the only thing he has done for me is put some of my money back into my pocket.

Bernie wants to put his hand into my pocket and take more of it. I don't care if he gets 99.999% of the votes. The majority should not get to steal my money to pay for their wishes, especially for programs that are not clearly defined by the Constitution.

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

It doesn't matter if any of us on this board moves. The ones that matter are the one Bernie rails against. They have the means to move and will.

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

As far as voting goes, intelligent people in this country used to outnumber the morons by a large margin. Based upon recent observations, the morons are rapidly catching up - if they haven't already done so. I feel that a lot of individuals that are voting don't actually understand that which they are voting for, but their vote still carries the same weight as the informed voter's does. That's both unfortunate and damaging to the country as people like Bernie actually could be elected. The country needs to instill some kind of voting exam that needs to be passed before granting the right to vote to see if you understand such things as Socialism that candidate "A" is promoting (for example) - sort of like you need to do to prove you know enough to get a driver's license and drive a car on the highway. I know it would never happen, but still, we are quickly approaching crazy town here and are all potentially stuck on the bus to ruin.

Food for thought. The Brookings Institute says if you take all the assets owned by every single American (rich and poor) it would equal 98 trillion. Bernies plans by is own admission over ten years costs 97 trillion. There is no scenario where there is a "reasonable" tax plan that will pay for Bernies proposals. The only way to pull off Bernies scheme is to take everything from everyone. Taxes arent going to ever pay for this.

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

you mean the ANTI-Trump people saying they'd move if he won?

Bernie can easily be elected and NONE of this happen. Neither party is fiscally responsible... they'd vote both to fund everything and then also to protect the very wealthy AND the poor, as they have done for most of the last century... leaving a huge hole. Nobody will have to move, the nation will eventually collapse on its own

(02-25-2020 11:48 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

I didn't vote for Trump the first time, and I won't vote for him this time, but the only thing he has done for me is put some of my money back into my pocket.

Bernie wants to put his hand into my pocket and take more of it. I don't care if he gets 99.999% of the votes. The majority should not get to steal my money to pay for their wishes, especially for programs that are not clearly defined by the Constitution.

Well then you have the right to move if it happens. Elections have consequences. It really is that damn simple if the American people don't want what Bernie is proposing to happen he won't win. You clearly fear that they might. I hope Bernie abuses every lever of presidential power as well that Trump has, and ignores any congressional oversight attempts. Executive privilege is now absolute according to the doctrine of Trump, so I hope he takes advantage.

(02-25-2020 12:03 PM)ODU BBALL Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

As far as voting goes, intelligent people in this country used to outnumber the morons by a large margin. Based upon recent observations, the morons are rapidly catching up - it they haven't already done so. I feel that a lot of individuals that are voting don't actually understand that which they are voting for, but their vote still carries the same weight as the informed voter's does. That's both unfortunate and damaging to the country as people like Bernie actually could be elected. The country needs to instill some kind of voting exam that needs to be passed before granting the right to vote to see if you understand such things as Socialism that candidate "A" is promoting (for example) - sort of like you need to do to prove you know enough to get a driver's license and drive a car on the highway. I know it would never happen, but still, we are quickly approaching crazy town here and are all potentially stuck on the bus to ruin.

Amazingly enough I'm going to agree with you, I believe the majority of the American people aren't very smart, I just don't think that's the exclusive domain of those that support Bernie. Just as many idiot Trump voters as there are idiot Bernie voters.

(02-25-2020 11:10 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:47 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:25 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  You mean the Trump 101 debate strategy? Essentially the Trump response to every single thing Killary hit him on? Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

Do you really believe your taxes will not go up under Sanders?

I fully believe my taxes will go up under Sanders, he's never pretended like they wouldn't. The question is do I believe my taxes would go up more than what I currently pay in health care costs (assuming in a perfect world where he actually passed everything he wanted)? Currently yes they probably would as my current employer health care is the best I've had in my working life and I'm 33 and relatively healthy. I also know because it's happened to me before that I could lose this job tomorrow and the insurance is gone, and between all the hereditary health issues in my family and just everyday risk (my GF got in a car accident right before christmas and we are all subject to that at any moment) that I and anyone on this board are a couple of bad breaks from financial ruin over medical costs. So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

That's not how any of that works.

If you lose your job, you aren't just thrown to the wolves. You'd likely have a severance, and then COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and then the safety net of Medicaid if for some reason you couldn't find a job in a booming economy for a prolonged period of time.

I'm beginning to think that M4A's popularity among the far-left stems entirely from ignorance as to how the system actually works. You want to take from 150 million people, because a few people may fall between the cracks. How about work on fixing the cracks?

(02-25-2020 08:48 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  I'm still waiting for the details and plans for how Mexico is gonna pay for the wall.

From the revenues gained from all those shovel ready jobs.

(02-25-2020 11:45 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:38 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:29 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

And, that's fine. But, why should you get to make that choice for the rest of us? That's the question.

I don't get to make that choice by myself, we have elections and if the will of enough people want it and vote enough people in then it happens. Elections have consequences. If it happens and you don't like it you can move. All the same nonsense I heard Trump people say after his victory.

The founders were wise enough to give us the second amendment. They knew what it took for free people to escape tyranny.

(02-25-2020 12:28 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:10 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:47 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:25 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  You mean the Trump 101 debate strategy? Essentially the Trump response to every single thing Killary hit him on? Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

Do you really believe your taxes will not go up under Sanders?

I fully believe my taxes will go up under Sanders, he's never pretended like they wouldn't. The question is do I believe my taxes would go up more than what I currently pay in health care costs (assuming in a perfect world where he actually passed everything he wanted)? Currently yes they probably would as my current employer health care is the best I've had in my working life and I'm 33 and relatively healthy. I also know because it's happened to me before that I could lose this job tomorrow and the insurance is gone, and between all the hereditary health issues in my family and just everyday risk (my GF got in a car accident right before christmas and we are all subject to that at any moment) that I and anyone on this board are a couple of bad breaks from financial ruin over medical costs. So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

That's not how any of that works.

If you lose your job, you aren't just thrown to the wolves. You'd likely have a severance, and then COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and then the safety net of Medicaid if for some reason you couldn't find a job in a booming economy for a prolonged period of time.

I'm beginning to think that M4A's popularity among the far-left stems entirely from ignorance as to how the system actually works. You want to take from 150 million people, because a few people may fall between the cracks. How about work on fixing the cracks?

You act like I've never seen what happens when you get laid off. I very much have. I didn't get any severance BTW just paid out for my unused PTO. Sure you have COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and COBRA is impossible to afford if you are unemployed so that's not a real option. Like 3 years ago when I got laid off my COBRA package was $600 a month for just me. Probably would be more today. Are you making a defense of Obamacare by the way? That was the option I had to go with, and because I'm healthy I took the risk that nothing horrible would happen while I was unemployed and took a high deductible plan and maxed out the subsidy so I had very little premium to pay while unemployed. If I'd have gotten in a car accident during that time where I was very much struggling to get by I'd have been ruined. So yeah I know how this stuff works and it scares me to death constantly.

Also bonds, you say you're 33 and I assume your employer pays the bulk of your premiums.

Let's say you are blessed with good health. Why do you want to pay $10k+ more in taxes every year, just to avoid deductibles and co-pays that only ever truly kick in, if you are hit with a debilitating illness?

Add up that money up over a 40 year career. Be sure to account for your expected year-over-year growth in income. Then compound that over 40 years, assuming a modest 5-7% return that it could be earning in the stock market.

You're wanting to pay millions in future earnings to avoid a $3,500 deductible.

lmfao

(02-25-2020 12:24 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Amazingly enough I'm going to agree with you, I believe the majority of the American people aren't very smart, I just don't think that's the exclusive domain of those that support Bernie. Just as many idiot Trump voters as there are idiot Bernie voters.

True

I'm not worried about the idiots (because you can't fix stupid)... I worry about the poorly informed.

If an NIH model is the answer, why are we talking about M4A?
If M4A is the answer, why aren't we talking about all the things medicare DOESN'T cover and that there are private policies that can (under many conditions and in every state) cover their costs AND return a profit for the amount of $$ that Medicare is willing to pay them (which is less than they get, because they still have to manage that person)

(02-25-2020 12:28 PM)Kronke Wrote:  That's not how any of that works.

If you lose your job, you aren't just thrown to the wolves. You'd likely have a severance, and then COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and then the safety net of Medicaid if for some reason you couldn't find a job in a booming economy for a prolonged period of time.

I'm beginning to think that M4A's popularity among the far-left stems entirely from ignorance as to how the system actually works. You want to take from 150 million people, because a few people may fall between the cracks. How about work on fixing the cracks?

Agree with this 100%. Even many intelligent people, some who even work in healthcare, don't know how all of this works. I'm not a practitioner, I work on the business side of healthcare, meaning I HAVE to know how it works... and there are still some aspects that elude my entire comprehension.

(02-25-2020 12:42 PM)Kronke Wrote:  Also bonds, you say you're 33 and I assume your employer pays the bulk of your premiums.

Let's say you are blessed with good health. Why do you want to pay $10k+ more in taxes every year, just to avoid deductibles and co-pays that only ever truly kick in, if you are hit with a debilitating illness?

Add up that money up over a 40 year career. Be sure to account for your expected year-over-year growth in income. Then compound that over 40 years, assuming a modest 5-7% return that it could be earning in the stock market.

You're wanting to pay millions in future earnings to avoid a $3,500 deductible.

lmfao

Let's say I'm not blessed with good health. Right now I'm lucky enough to be, but I've seen my aunt getting diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer despite never smoking and my girlfriend get in a scary car accident this year. This whole good health thing could change tomorrow through no fault of my own. I also highly doubt it's 10k a year extra in taxes. I've seen what my brother pays in taxes in Australia and this is going to stun you it's not 90% of his paycheck. I know this is also gonna stun you but he's been sick over there and didn't have to wait for months to see a doctor. Another stunner there masses of people waiting in soup lines. Somehow every other industrialized country in the world have systems where you don't have to worry about going bankrupt over healthcare costs, but for some reason the greatest country in the world can't figure out a way to do it.

(02-25-2020 12:39 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 12:28 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:10 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:47 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:25 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  You mean the Trump 101 debate strategy? Essentially the Trump response to every single thing Killary hit him on? Sounds like a winning strategy to me.

Do you really believe your taxes will not go up under Sanders?

I fully believe my taxes will go up under Sanders, he's never pretended like they wouldn't. The question is do I believe my taxes would go up more than what I currently pay in health care costs (assuming in a perfect world where he actually passed everything he wanted)? Currently yes they probably would as my current employer health care is the best I've had in my working life and I'm 33 and relatively healthy. I also know because it's happened to me before that I could lose this job tomorrow and the insurance is gone, and between all the hereditary health issues in my family and just everyday risk (my GF got in a car accident right before christmas and we are all subject to that at any moment) that I and anyone on this board are a couple of bad breaks from financial ruin over medical costs. So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

That's not how any of that works.

If you lose your job, you aren't just thrown to the wolves. You'd likely have a severance, and then COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and then the safety net of Medicaid if for some reason you couldn't find a job in a booming economy for a prolonged period of time.

I'm beginning to think that M4A's popularity among the far-left stems entirely from ignorance as to how the system actually works. You want to take from 150 million people, because a few people may fall between the cracks. How about work on fixing the cracks?

You act like I've never seen what happens when you get laid off. I very much have. I didn't get any severance BTW just paid out for my unused PTO. Sure you have COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and COBRA is impossible to afford if you are unemployed so that's not a real option. Like 3 years ago when I got laid off my COBRA package was $600 a month for just me. Probably would be more today. Are you making a defense of Obamacare by the way? That was the option I had to go with, and because I'm healthy I took the risk that nothing horrible would happen while I was unemployed and took a high deductible plan and maxed out the subsidy so I had very little premium to pay while unemployed. If I'd have gotten in a car accident during that time where I was very much struggling to get by I'd have been ruined. So yeah I know how this stuff works and it scares me to death constantly.

If you qualified for the maximum subsidy, not only would your premium have been $0, but you also would have qualified for the cost-sharing reduction, meaning your co-pays and deductibles would have also been $0. How would you ever be financially ruined in such a situation?

https://www.healthcare.gov/lower-costs/s...ket-costs/

That tells me either this is a made up story, or you proved my point regarding your ignorance as to how these things work.

Do you have a university near you that offers a personal finance course? If so, I highly recommend you invest in taking it. I did as an elective when I was an undergrad, and I can say it was truly worthwhile. You have a lot of holes in your education when it comes to basic math and finance, and people talking with you is often a frustrating waste of time, because a lot of it just goes over your head.

(02-25-2020 12:57 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 12:42 PM)Kronke Wrote:  Also bonds, you say you're 33 and I assume your employer pays the bulk of your premiums.

Let's say you are blessed with good health. Why do you want to pay $10k+ more in taxes every year, just to avoid deductibles and co-pays that only ever truly kick in, if you are hit with a debilitating illness?

Add up that money up over a 40 year career. Be sure to account for your expected year-over-year growth in income. Then compound that over 40 years, assuming a modest 5-7% return that it could be earning in the stock market.

You're wanting to pay millions in future earnings to avoid a $3,500 deductible.

lmfao

Let's say I'm not blessed with good health. Right now I'm lucky enough to be, but I've seen my aunt getting diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer despite never smoking and my girlfriend get in a scary car accident this year. This whole good health thing could change tomorrow through no fault of my own. I also highly doubt it's 10k a year extra in taxes. I've seen what my brother pays in taxes in Australia and this is going to stun you it's not 90% of his paycheck. I know this is also gonna stun you but he's been sick over there and didn't have to wait for months to see a doctor. Another stunner there masses of people waiting in soup lines. Somehow every other industrialized country in the world have systems where you don't have to worry about going bankrupt over healthcare costs, but for some reason the greatest country in the world can't figure out a way to do it.

That's what insurance is for. Pay a premium to hedge the risk instead of flushing millions of future earnings down the toilet.

Like I asked, do that math and show your work. I'd love to see what you come up with.

(02-25-2020 01:00 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 12:39 PM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 12:28 PM)Kronke Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 11:10 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(02-25-2020 09:47 AM)ODUCoach Wrote:  Do you really believe your taxes will not go up under Sanders?

I fully believe my taxes will go up under Sanders, he's never pretended like they wouldn't. The question is do I believe my taxes would go up more than what I currently pay in health care costs (assuming in a perfect world where he actually passed everything he wanted)? Currently yes they probably would as my current employer health care is the best I've had in my working life and I'm 33 and relatively healthy. I also know because it's happened to me before that I could lose this job tomorrow and the insurance is gone, and between all the hereditary health issues in my family and just everyday risk (my GF got in a car accident right before christmas and we are all subject to that at any moment) that I and anyone on this board are a couple of bad breaks from financial ruin over medical costs. So me personally I'd happily pay higher taxes to not be a slave to my job for health insurance and even with it still at risk of financial ruin at any moment.

That's not how any of that works.

If you lose your job, you aren't just thrown to the wolves. You'd likely have a severance, and then COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and then the safety net of Medicaid if for some reason you couldn't find a job in a booming economy for a prolonged period of time.

I'm beginning to think that M4A's popularity among the far-left stems entirely from ignorance as to how the system actually works. You want to take from 150 million people, because a few people may fall between the cracks. How about work on fixing the cracks?

You act like I've never seen what happens when you get laid off. I very much have. I didn't get any severance BTW just paid out for my unused PTO. Sure you have COBRA and Obamacare options to weigh, and COBRA is impossible to afford if you are unemployed so that's not a real option. Like 3 years ago when I got laid off my COBRA package was $600 a month for just me. Probably would be more today. Are you making a defense of Obamacare by the way? That was the option I had to go with, and because I'm healthy I took the risk that nothing horrible would happen while I was unemployed and took a high deductible plan and maxed out the subsidy so I had very little premium to pay while unemployed. If I'd have gotten in a car accident during that time where I was very much struggling to get by I'd have been ruined. So yeah I know how this stuff works and it scares me to death constantly.

If you qualified for the maximum subsidy, not only would your premium have been $0, but you also would have qualified for the cost-sharing reduction, meaning your co-pays and deductibles would have also been $0. How would you ever be financially ruined in such a situation?

https://www.healthcare.gov/lower-costs/s...ket-costs/

That tells me either this is a made up story, or you proved my point regarding your ignorance as to how these things work.

Do you have a university near you that offers a personal finance course? If so, I highly recommend you invest in taking it. I did as an elective when I was an undergrad, and I can say it was truly worthwhile. You have a lot of holes in your education when it comes to basic math and finance, and people talking with you is often a frustrating waste of time, because a lot of it just goes over your head.

Sorry I should have been clearer and said "maxed out the subsidy I qualified for" which lowered my premium for a bronze plan to I believe if I'm remembering correctly $50 a month.