The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

Why do I get this impression that everyone thinks we've been so bad ass in hockey in the past several years? Culhane's last few years were terrible, Blashill and Murray have both had their moments over their tenures....much like Hawk. However, I think it's safe to say Hawk's league record surpasses our hockey league records over the years. Not saying Hawk is untouchable but not much difference between Hawk and Murray in my book.

There is no comparison between MAC basketball and NCHC hockey.

(03-06-2018 07:23 PM)Flashboski Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 07:04 PM)tayles mullet Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 04:32 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 04:23 PM)dunkface Wrote:  MAC Tournament titles since Hawk took over:

Ohio - 3
Kent State - 3
Akron - 3
Buffalo - 2
WMU - 2
Miami - 1

Not sure why so many people on here are so content with where our basketball program is.

Because we're a football school. Then hockey. Then hoops. Mediocrity in basketball with an occasional championship is fine by most. During those championship runs, UA is usually pretty rockin'.

4 conference football championships in 112 years sure screams football school to me.



Maybe WMU is actually a tennis school. 8 regular season and 11 tournament championships since 1999. Dave Morin blows away all other WMU coaches in accomplishments

Talking about overall community and fan interest, as well as booster and university support. If you look at just wins and losses, then yeah WMU is mediocre across the board in athletics. But Kalamazoo is generally a football and hockey town.

When looking at attendance numbers it is apparent the “community” is more interested in mens basketball while WMU students are interested in hockey.

Not comparing conferences...I'm comparing conference coaching records between the 2 coaches. It's apples to apples. And, to use your comparison approach, there is NO comparison between NCAA college basketball and NCAA college hockey. Hockey is followed by people in about 10-12 states. There is miles more exposure in an NCAA BB tourney bid (and any NCAA FB bowl bid for that matter) than an NCAA hockey bid. Are the hockey NCAAs even televised? I love Bronco hockey but it just doesn't move the needle nationally.

The community is about equally interested in K-Wings hockey and WMU basketball, while the students are interested in WMU hockey. That's probably where the Kalamazoo as "football and hockey town" comes from.

Look at where we finish in the Division. We consistently win the West. Hawk has been great at keeping us from being a perennial bottom-feeder like a Northern Illinois. I'm not convinced firing Hawk is the best move when there'd be a huge risk of hiring a bad coach and having him run the program into the ground. Is it accepting mediocrity? No, because that would be not firing him if he couldn't lift us off the bottom.

Also, I think a lot of people have unrealistically high expectations. A successful season isn't determined by if you've won a Conference Championship, or the Stanley Cup, or the Super Bowl. If you think that's what determines a successful season, then I recommend you don't watch sports.

One thing I was never able to determine is why 'are you a football, hockey, or basketball school' is determined by how many Conference Championships you've won? Makes no sense.

Whatever we are, I've seen our campus lit up for football (2016) and hockey (2011 and 2012). I've heard basketball too was at one point.
Posted this in the Hockey section. Figured I'd post it here too because there's some arguing over which sport is most important:
Even a 6-6 footballseason gives us more recognition then winning the NCHC or WCHA. Outside of alumni, no one gives a damn about college hockey. I can tell you when our Cotton Bowl team was even just 4-0 or 5-0, there was more buzz in Kalamazoo then there was for Bronco hockey in 2011 and 2012.

(03-06-2018 08:21 PM)Broncos83 Wrote:  Not comparing conferences...I'm comparing conference coaching records between the 2 coaches. It's apples to apples. And, to use your comparison approach, there is NO comparison between NCAA college basketball and NCAA college hockey. Hockey is followed by people in about 10-12 states. There is miles more exposure in an NCAA BB tourney bid (and any NCAA FB bowl bid for that matter) than an NCAA hockey bid. Are the hockey NCAAs even televised? I love Bronco hockey but it just doesn't move the needle nationally.

The difference is that the NCHC is generally the best or 2nd best conference in the country and WMU is probably somewhere between 6th and 8th (last) in tradition/prestige and facilities. I think it's fair to adjust expectations accordingly. I'm not totally thrilled with Murray but I think he's been adequate given the challenges and recruiting has continued to pick up.

As for exposure, yes, the basketball tournament gives way more exposure, if you perform or pull an upset. I'm not sure getting blown out by Syracuse on day 1 really got us much, because everyone forgot we were even in it. Hockey does have potential to be a revenue sport if the program is good enough. I'm not sure the ceiling for MAC basketball is all that much higher.

(03-06-2018 08:08 PM)tayles mullet Wrote:  Talking about overall community and fan interest, as well as booster and university support. If you look at just wins and losses, then yeah WMU is mediocre across the board in athletics. But Kalamazoo is generally a football and hockey town.

If you are just talking about this year, I agree. It's like the Detroit pro teams now... we're just not used to having them all underwhelm at once.

We won conference championships in football, hoops, and hockey within the 2012-2016 time frame, which is pretty remarkable when you think about it. And most of our MAC brethren outside of NIU won't see a NY6 bowl in their lifetimes.

Stay healthy, and football should - at minimum - be at 7 or 8 wins next season and back to a bowl. Basketball, not sure about that one, my hunch is another .500 slog.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in hockey to know what talent is returning, etc.

(03-06-2018 08:41 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  We won conference championships in football, hoops, and hockey within the 2012-2016 time frame, which is pretty remarkable when you think about it.

I was going to post something similar. While we may not be dominant in any one of the 3 sports year in and year out, we're usually guaranteed at least one of them is good. As someone who loves all 3 sports, I am perfectly happy with that. The issue is the fans who just care about football or just care about hockey. (yes I know fans who care just about WMU football, and I know fans who care just about WMU hockey)

Believe it or not: last year we were actually good in all 3, with football and hockey making the National stage, and basketball not too shabby either.

(03-06-2018 10:02 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 08:41 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  We won conference championships in football, hoops, and hockey within the 2012-2016 time frame, which is pretty remarkable when you think about it.

I was going to post something similar. While we may not be dominant in any one of the 3 sports year in and year out, we're usually guaranteed at least one of them is good. As someone who loves all 3 sports, I am perfectly happy with that. The issue is the fans who just care about football or just care about hockey. (yes I know fans who care just about WMU football, and I know fans who care just about WMU hockey)

Believe it or not: last year we were actually good in all 3, with football and hockey making the National stage, and basketball not too shabby either.

Yea, alright I’ll buy that, I really do have high hopes for the football team this upcoming year, hopefully we can knock off one of the P5 teams on our schedule to have a shot at the AP Poll. But our basketball team may surprise next year with Davis, Moore, and Jones all returning.

(03-06-2018 08:41 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 08:08 PM)tayles mullet Wrote:  Talking about overall community and fan interest, as well as booster and university support. If you look at just wins and losses, then yeah WMU is mediocre across the board in athletics. But Kalamazoo is generally a football and hockey town.

If you are just talking about this year, I agree. It's like the Detroit pro teams now... we're just not used to having them all underwhelm at once.

We won conference championships in football, hoops, and hockey within the 2012-2016 time frame, which is pretty remarkable when you think about it. And most of our MAC brethren outside of NIU won't see a NY6 bowl in their lifetimes.

Stay healthy, and football should - at minimum - be at 7 or 8 wins next season and back to a bowl. Basketball, not sure about that one, my hunch is another .500 slog.

I'm not knowledgeable enough in hockey to know what talent is returning, etc.

Why is it that every single year our "hockey posters" believe that our recruiting is so great, and the "talent is there", but even with a proven NHL caliber (NHL Coach of the Year) coach we generally have been ending towards the basement of our conference, and everyone is still happy with our hockey-station-in-life?

One thing for sure about the NCHC is that it has certainly tempered our expectations. As long as we get to wear NCHC patches on our jerseys everyone is happy. Mind you, except for a handful of passionate college hockey fans throughout the country (or should I say Midwest and maybe out east), none even knows or cares who the "best college hockey conference" is. Gads!

I wish our hockey fans went back to caring about winning games and getting chances in the post season.

I love the MAC. Always have. Are there some problems? Sure, like the football scheduling. But overall it has been a very competitive conference, consisting of like schools, with similar budgets, all within a reasonable geographic footprint. Is it the best football or basketball league? Nope, not by a long shot. But it is a D1 conference which gives us a shot to play against the other D1 schools, and now and then be David against Goliath. I have always been proud of the mid-major chip on my shoulder, and never felt bad about not being in the B10, or that I didn't graduate from a P5 type school.

WMU generally has decent teams it the sports we compete in. We generally ***** amongst each other each season because we all have expectations of success. The MAC allows us to enjoy these sports. It is a very good fitting conference for WMU. My complaint about the NCHC is that it isn't a good fit. We are at a disadvantage from a competitive standpoint, based on relative commitment to hockey amongst the schools, facilities, and history.

We are generally a pretty decent basketball team, and Hawk has done pretty well over the years, given all circumstances. I don't think we should boot him as I think he still has good years left.

as stated previously, Hawk will be the coach until KB retires. He's far from horrible, but the program just appears stuck at the current level. Maybe that's good enough in the mind of the athletic department and school.

(03-06-2018 04:23 PM)dunkface Wrote:  MAC Tournament titles since Hawk took over:

Ohio - 3
Kent State - 3
Akron - 3
Buffalo - 2
WMU - 2
Miami - 1

MAC teams have won a grand total of three NCAA Tournament games during that time - all by Ohio. This isn't a great basketball conference compared to the rest of the nation, guys. This isn't the MAC of the late-90s.

I'm not denying that this season was a disappointment, but we've been in better shape than the half of the conference that hasn't won anything over the last 15 seasons. We're the only MAC West school that was won even one tournament title during that time. If division titles don't matter to some of you, that's fine - but there has been only one school that has won back-to-back tournament titles in the last 15 years, that being Buffalo in 15 and 16. That would tend to show that expecting consistent dominance in that regard in this conference is pretty unrealistic.

By and large, I've been pretty happy with what WMU has accomplished under Hawk. Have there been disappointments? Sure. Those are going to happen a couple times in 15 years at the mid-major level. This isn't Kentucky where we get our pick of McDonald's All-Americans every year.

Is he the best person for the program going forward? I don't know. There's a chance a new coach could be demonstrably better, but there's an equal chance that we could be significantly worse. I don't see next year's team being very good either way. We have one projected returner who is capable of creating his own shot or consistently creating shots for his teammates - that being Reggie Jones. Moore, Davis, Johnson, Dugan can all be decent players if used correctly. Perhaps Flowers or Printy can take a step forward. They're certainly going to have to improve defensively because they were fundamentally awful on that end of the floor this year. We'll see.

For sentimental reasons, I'd love to have Saddi as head coach. I don't think that's likely to happen. Hawk probably isn't going anywhere as long as Kathy is here. I'll support him and root for him as long as he's our head coach.

Great post!! Very similar to things that I have been saying to many stubborn Bronco fans that don't seem to understand that the MAC isn't a conference that is going to have teams that challenge for a national championship.

It's time for a change. 15 years is a long tenure for somebody that doesn't consistently dominate the conference. Maybe if he had 4 NCAA tournament appearances or perhaps an NCAA tourney victory then the conversation would be different but the WMU basketball program has been stuck in neutral for too long. Hardly anybody shows up to the games, and absolutely no students show up to the game. It's time to bring in a young energetic guy that wants to revamp the program or we can hang on to Hawkins, continue with a few more mediocre seasons and see no improvement in the program. Not sure why so many people on here are so content with where our basketball program is.
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It doesn't matter how good the Broncos are, the fans will not come. In 2014 the Broncos won the MAC regular season and conference tournament titles. They had 2 players in the running for MAC player of the year, one of which went to the NBA. That team averaged less than 3000 fans per home game that season.

(03-06-2018 06:32 PM)wingsenforcer Wrote:  These sorts of results are a broken record from Hawk now. I think he's a great basketball mind and respects the game due to his personal connection to John Wooden, however, it is plainly clear he is being out-recruited for players within the state. We can't keep taking these tall drinks of water from Indiana and the west coast of Michigan and expect to compete. It's been a good 10 years now without a front court player who has any sort of upper body strength (excepting Whittington).

If any of you watched SportsCenter last night and saw the difference in crowds at other MAC sites compared to us, you can see there are several reasons why this program needs a change.

We've been getting muscled off the ball (literally and figuratively) for a long time now and it is obvious that the sweep of titles in 2014 is an aberration. I hate to say that about a championship team, but Akron had us dead to rights in the tournament that year and didn't finish the job.

If boosters are ponying up two-thirds of Lester's salary, it can be done to get a new basketball coach.

The Broncos had Akron dead to rights on Monday and didn't finish the job. Does that mean that Monday's loss doesn't count?

(03-07-2018 10:38 AM)Wheres_Waldo? Wrote:  as stated previously, Hawk will be the coach until KB retires. He's far from horrible, but the program just appears stuck at the current level. Maybe that's good enough in the mind of the athletic department and school.

And KB as of now is the person for the job. Took the gambles on Fleck and Blashil and those paid off. If Lester ends up sucking and Murray still is unable to get us going in the NCHC, then yes, fire KB. She is the mastermind behind our Cotton Bowl appearance and recent NCAA hockey Tourney appearances.

(03-07-2018 08:24 AM)brovol Wrote:  I love the MAC. Always have. Are there some problems? Sure, like the football scheduling. But overall it has been a very competitive conference, consisting of like schools, with similar budgets, all within a reasonable geographic footprint. Is it the best football or basketball league? Nope, not by a long shot. But it is a D1 conference which gives us a shot to play against the other D1 schools, and now and then be David against Goliath. I have always been proud of the mid-major chip on my shoulder, and never felt bad about not being in the B10, or that I didn't graduate from a P5 type school.

WMU generally has decent teams it the sports we compete in. We generally ***** amongst each other each season because we all have expectations of success. The MAC allows us to enjoy these sports. It is a very good fitting conference for WMU. My complaint about the NCHC is that it isn't a good fit. We are at a disadvantage from a competitive standpoint, based on relative commitment to hockey amongst the schools, facilities, and history.

We are generally a pretty decent basketball team, and Hawk has done pretty well over the years, given all circumstances. I don't think we should boot him as I think he still has good years left.

While we disagree about hockey, we definitely share the same opinion on the MAC, mid-majors, and Hawkins. Not saying we're accepting mediocrity: That'd be if we were a perennial cellar-dweller in the MAC and keeping him. It's come to the point where any season we don't win the West in the MAC, it's a failure.

(And yes, I love the David vs Goliath match-ups and kicking the arrogant P5 jerks into the mud. I never cheer for a P5 team. Never. Were I to go to grad school, I'd choose a mid-major again.)

(03-06-2018 10:54 PM)Fthechips Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 10:02 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  

(03-06-2018 08:41 PM)Motown Bronco Wrote:  We won conference championships in football, hoops, and hockey within the 2012-2016 time frame, which is pretty remarkable when you think about it.

I was going to post something similar. While we may not be dominant in any one of the 3 sports year in and year out, we're usually guaranteed at least one of them is good. As someone who loves all 3 sports, I am perfectly happy with that. The issue is the fans who just care about football or just care about hockey. (yes I know fans who care just about WMU football, and I know fans who care just about WMU hockey)

Believe it or not: last year we were actually good in all 3, with football and hockey making the National stage, and basketball not too shabby either.

Yea, alright I’ll buy that, I really do have high hopes for the football team this upcoming year, hopefully we can knock off one of the P5 teams on our schedule to have a shot at the AP Poll. But our basketball team may surprise next year with Davis, Moore, and Jones all returning.

I have high hopes for football too for 2018. Don't think we can beat a P5 team this year. Syracuse is returning a good team, and let's be honest, while we can beat low-to-mid-level Big Ten teams, Michigan is in that next tier.

(03-07-2018 08:24 AM)brovol Wrote:  I love the MAC. Always have. Are there some problems? Sure, like the football scheduling. But overall it has been a very competitive conference, consisting of like schools, with similar budgets, all within a reasonable geographic footprint. Is it the best football or basketball league? Nope, not by a long shot. But it is a D1 conference which gives us a shot to play against the other D1 schools, and now and then be David against Goliath. I have always been proud of the mid-major chip on my shoulder, and never felt bad about not being in the B10, or that I didn't graduate from a P5 type school.

WMU generally has decent teams it the sports we compete in. We generally ***** amongst each other each season because we all have expectations of success. The MAC allows us to enjoy these sports. It is a very good fitting conference for WMU. My complaint about the NCHC is that it isn't a good fit. We are at a disadvantage from a competitive standpoint, based on relative commitment to hockey amongst the schools, facilities, and history.

We are generally a pretty decent basketball team, and Hawk has done pretty well over the years, given all circumnces. I don't think we should boot him as I think he still has good years left.

Brov, stop playing dumb on the NCHC thing. “Competive disadvantage?”

Yet we beat the #1 an 2 team twice before we had a gaggle of injuries to key players.

That’s like saying Tennessee, Texas AM, South Carolina, and Arkansas all middle of the pack SEC teams should leave and go play in a conference they’re more suited for like the Sunbelt.

You sound like a lawyer defending a career criminal.

(03-07-2018 11:18 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  

(03-07-2018 08:24 AM)brovol Wrote:  I love the MAC. Always have. Are there some problems? Sure, like the football scheduling. But overall it has been a very competitive conference, consisting of like schools, with similar budgets, all within a reasonable geographic footprint. Is it the best football or basketball league? Nope, not by a long shot. But it is a D1 conference which gives us a shot to play against the other D1 schools, and now and then be David against Goliath. I have always been proud of the mid-major chip on my shoulder, and never felt bad about not being in the B10, or that I didn't graduate from a P5 type school.

WMU generally has decent teams it the sports we compete in. We generally ***** amongst each other each season because we all have expectations of success. The MAC allows us to enjoy these sports. It is a very good fitting conference for WMU. My complaint about the NCHC is that it isn't a good fit. We are at a disadvantage from a competitive standpoint, based on relative commitment to hockey amongst the schools, facilities, and history.

We are generally a pretty decent basketball team, and Hawk has done pretty well over the years, given all circumnces. I don't think we should boot him as I think he still has good years left.

Brov, stop playing dumb on the NCHC thing. “Competive disadvantage?”

Yet we beat the #1 an 2 team twice before we had a gaggle of injuries to key players.

That’s like saying Tennessee, Texas AM, South Carolina, and Arkansas all middle of the pack SEC teams should leave and go play in a conference they’re more suited for like the Sunbelt.

You sound like a lawyer defending a career criminal.

The top ranked teams in hockey lose to middle of the pack schools from other conference too. What's your point? Except for last season, we have been finishing near the bottom of the NCHC. Is that what you think is successful?

The "injury" defense is getting a bit old for hockey and football. These are team sports. Depth is a big part of having a successful program.

And if you don't think that we have a competitive disadvantage relative to the top teams in the NCHC, why is it that we are perennial bottom feeders? Oh ya, "injuries".