It looks like the military has intervened because they want to avoid Mugabe's wife from taking over from him.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/zim...index.html

Reports are it was bloodless... Getting that marxist out of office there can maybe be the first step towards rebuilding that country.

(11-15-2017 12:12 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Reports are it was bloodless... Getting that marxist out of office there can maybe be the first step towards rebuilding that country.

Again, I don't think you could call his economy 'Marxist'. Really more of an 'corporatist/corrupt' mix with currency controls.

There is private business in Zim.

To be clear, Marxism doesn't work. But Zim isn't really that.

(11-15-2017 12:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 12:12 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Reports are it was bloodless... Getting that marxist out of office there can maybe be the first step towards rebuilding that country.

Again, I don't think you could call his economy 'Marxist'. Really more of an 'corporatist/corrupt' mix with currency controls.

The guy was a Marxist who used whatever tools he could to advance it, he relabeled as socialist in the early 90's when it became popular.

(11-15-2017 12:26 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 12:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 12:12 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  Reports are it was bloodless... Getting that marxist out of office there can maybe be the first step towards rebuilding that country.

Again, I don't think you could call his economy 'Marxist'. Really more of an 'corporatist/corrupt' mix with currency controls.

The guy was a Marxist who used whatever tools he could to advance it, he relabeled as socialist in the early 90's when it became popular.

Its not about labels here but the facts on the ground.

Between 1979 and 1990, Zim was actually pretty capitalist. And reasonably economically successful. The problem started around 1990 when Mugabe started to have some political grumblings about his rule. He then tried to blame the whites, who controlled 90% of the economy for their troubles. He then seized, extrajudiciously, most of the white commercial farms. He then passed laws allowing white owned non-agricultural businesses to remain, but required them to give 50% ownership to blacks (actually just to his political supporters). Predictably, economic activity ground to a halt. Mugabe then decided to just print money and instituted currency controls. The result...massive inflation and devaluation. Mugabe then backtracked a bit, and allowed the US dollar and other currencies to be used in Zim. That helped somewhat, but then the crops failed and Mugabe's deficit spending got out of control again. And now people are starving to death. That's where we are today.

Yes there were seizures of property, but it really never was a Marxist type situation. It was really simply nationalization for the benefit of his elites.

He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

(11-15-2017 01:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

Right..

But that really isn't Marxism or Socialism...its just theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. There's no economic ideology in play here.

(11-15-2017 01:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

Right..

But that really isn't Marxism or Socialism...its just theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. There's no economic ideology in play here.

why do those that use theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder always seem to do it under the name of communism, socialism, Marxism, etc? Seems like the "True Believers" should speak out as these "really isnts" are giving their ideology a bad name.

Defending Mugabe by parsing the minutia of his political and economic ideology is, frankly, not a good look.

(11-15-2017 01:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

Right..

But that really isn't Marxism or Socialism...its just theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. There's no economic ideology in play here.

why do those that use theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder always seem to do it under the name of communism, socialism, Marxism, etc? Seems like the "True Believers" should speak out as these "really isnts" are giving their ideology a bad name.

Germany? Slavery? The Edict of Nantes? The Pogroms in Czarist Russia? Oh, I could go on forever.

(11-15-2017 01:40 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Defending Mugabe by parsing the minutia of his political and economic ideology is, frankly, not a good look.

This ^^^

The guy earned the name of The Butcher of Zimbabwe for good reason. He was really, really good at it.

(11-15-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

Right..

But that really isn't Marxism or Socialism...its just theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. There's no economic ideology in play here.

why do those that use theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder always seem to do it under the name of communism, socialism, Marxism, etc? Seems like the "True Believers" should speak out as these "really isnts" are giving their ideology a bad name.

Germany? Slavery? The Edict of Nantes? The Pogroms in Czarist Russia? Oh, I could go on forever.

Aren't you the one who has been on an anti-whataboutism crusade the past two days? Why are you engaging in it here?

(11-15-2017 01:40 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  Defending Mugabe by parsing the minutia of his political and economic ideology is, frankly, not a good look.

Where have I defended him or his economic policy, in any way or shape?

Please explain this. Something doesn't have to be Marxist to be evil. And Mugabe is evil. Its just that the label Marxist doesn't really apply here.

Putting words in other people's mouths isn't a good look. You're better than that.

(11-15-2017 02:58 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:40 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:37 PM)solohawks Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 01:00 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  He started killing white farmers to drive them out of the country so he could take their land and give it to (wait for it) his rich political friends. Great man of the people.

Right..

But that really isn't Marxism or Socialism...its just theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. There's no economic ideology in play here.

why do those that use theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder always seem to do it under the name of communism, socialism, Marxism, etc? Seems like the "True Believers" should speak out as these "really isnts" are giving their ideology a bad name.

Germany? Slavery? The Edict of Nantes? The Pogroms in Czarist Russia? Oh, I could go on forever.

Aren't you the one who has been on an anti-whataboutism crusade the past two days? Why are you engaging in it here?

Actually, you attempted to (erroneously) tie one particular ideology to certain unrelated events. Its completely appropriate to point out some of the many exceptions to that.

If someone says that its seems that only Republicans assault women, you would be well within the topic to point out the Democrats that have assaulted women.

Now if we were talking about one instance of something, and you just start talking about someone else, then THAT would be 'whataboutism'.

I think Mugabe is a monster. So do you guys. Why do you guys have to turn this into some sort of BS attempt to make it validate your American political beliefs? It doesn't work like that.

BTW, there are Marxist economic policies that have clearly been attempted and have clearly failed. Mozambique is one. Cuba is another. But Zimbabwe isn't really a case here.
----

Basically, Mugabe is a monster. But his policies aren't anything other than theft, ethnic cleansing, and murder. Something that, sadly, is ffar too common and that no political movement is immune to.

(11-15-2017 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Actually, you attempted to (erroneously) tie one particular ideology to certain unrelated events. Its completely appropriate to point out some of the many exceptions to that.

Actually I did no such thing. My first post in this thread was the one you replied to calling you out for your hypocrisy.

But don't worry....we've known for a while now that you are a raging hypocrite so your reputation is intact.

(11-15-2017 03:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Actually, you attempted to (erroneously) tie one particular ideology to certain unrelated events. Its completely appropriate to point out some of the many exceptions to that.

Actually I did no such thing. My first post in this thread was the one you replied to calling you out for your hypocrisy.

But don't worry....we've known for a while now that you are a raging hypocrite so your reputation is intact.

Ok..I got you and solohawks confused. See...how hard was that? Now back to the thread topic about Zimbabwe.

LOL. Thanks for the gratuitous insult pal, though.

Its kind of interesting that the ANC government in South Africa is finally not intervening on behalf of ZANU-PF (Mugabe's party).

(11-15-2017 04:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 03:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Actually, you attempted to (erroneously) tie one particular ideology to certain unrelated events. Its completely appropriate to point out some of the many exceptions to that.

Actually I did no such thing. My first post in this thread was the one you replied to calling you out for your hypocrisy.

But don't worry....we've known for a while now that you are a raging hypocrite so your reputation is intact.

Ok..I got you and solohawks confused. See...how hard was that? Now back to the thread topic about Zimbabwe.

LOL. Thanks for the gratuitous insult pal, though.

Its kind of interesting that the ANC government in South Africa is finally not intervening on behalf of ZANU-PF (Mugabe's party).

Two things.

#1 It's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. If that insults you then that's your problem.

#2 In no way, shape, or form are we pals.

(11-15-2017 04:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 04:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 03:49 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-15-2017 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Actually, you attempted to (erroneously) tie one particular ideology to certain unrelated events. Its completely appropriate to point out some of the many exceptions to that.

Actually I did no such thing. My first post in this thread was the one you replied to calling you out for your hypocrisy.

But don't worry....we've known for a while now that you are a raging hypocrite so your reputation is intact.

Ok..I got you and solohawks confused. See...how hard was that? Now back to the thread topic about Zimbabwe.

LOL. Thanks for the gratuitous insult pal, though.

Its kind of interesting that the ANC government in South Africa is finally not intervening on behalf of ZANU-PF (Mugabe's party).

Two things.

#1 It's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. If that insults you then that's your problem.

#2 In no way, shape, or form are we pals.

Love you too, honey...

LOL.

Now back tot he topic. Looks like this is gong to stick. Hopefully they'll be able to cobble together a decent government.

Mugabe was not good for the people of Zimbabwe.

(11-15-2017 08:17 PM)bubbapt Wrote:  Mugabe was not good for the people of Zimbabwe.

Neither will be whatever it is that replaces him. It's Africa. No matter who replaces him they'll be crooked as hell.