(11-29-2017 08:54 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  Current Massey composite - includes 111 rankings

Con Mean Change

ACC 41.77
SEC 45.40 +3.63
B1G 45.50 +.10
PAC 46.49 +.99
B12 48.83 +2.34

AAC 66.71 +17.88

MWC 83.81 +17.10
MAC 84.80 +.99
CUSA 92.36 +7.56
SBC 101.73 +9.37

AAC mean is 17.88 spots below the bottom P5 and 17.10 above the closest G5. Looks pretty in equidistant to me.

At #6, AAC is closer to #5 than to #8,9,10. And the gulf between #6 and #7 is 96% of that between AAC and #5.
AAC is closer to #1 than to #9&10

That's kind of precisely what were talking about with P6

(11-29-2017 08:54 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  Current Massey composite - includes 111 rankings

Con Mean Change

ACC 41.77
SEC 45.40 +3.63
B1G 45.50 +.10
PAC 46.49 +.99
B12 48.83 +2.34

AAC 66.71 +17.88

MWC 83.81 +17.10
MAC 84.80 +.99
CUSA 92.36 +7.56
SBC 101.73 +9.37

AAC mean is 17.88 spots below the bottom P5 and 17.10 above the closest G5. Looks pretty in equidistant to me.

For whatever reason this is not accurate if you add all of the teams in the leagues rank and divide by the amount of teams. Its computer generated so it may be the actual massey composite rank score? For example the exact average of the teams rank would put them at (just a random example)
1.
1.99
2.8
4.1
5
6
7.1
7.98

Not sure.... But i do the math every week and cant get their means to "mean" average... Which is sum of whole divided by # of teams.

(11-29-2017 09:44 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2017 08:54 PM)gulfcoastgal Wrote:  Current Massey composite - includes 111 rankings

Con Mean Change

ACC 41.77
SEC 45.40 +3.63
B1G 45.50 +.10
PAC 46.49 +.99
B12 48.83 +2.34

AAC 66.71 +17.88

MWC 83.81 +17.10
MAC 84.80 +.99
CUSA 92.36 +7.56
SBC 101.73 +9.37

AAC mean is 17.88 spots below the bottom P5 and 17.10 above the closest G5. Looks pretty in equidistant to me.

For whatever reason this is not accurate if you add all of the teams in the leagues rank and divide by the amount of teams. Its computer generated so it may be the actual massey composite rank score? For example the exact average of the teams rank would put them at (just a random example)
1.
1.99
2.8
4.1
5
6
7.1
7.98

Not sure.... But i do the math every week and cant get their means to "mean" average... Which is sum of whole divided by # of teams.

On the Massey Composite, go all the way lower right.

EDITED: on second look I see what you are saying. That number is not the mean of the composite rankings of the n teams in the conference.
I presume that within the conference section, we see a1-11 ranking for each conference within each ranking system, but that BEHIND those ordinals is a mean for the conference within each column. The lower right number is the horizontal mean of the 111 conference ranking averages within each of the 111 systems.
I got a Delta of -.2 for AAC and .86 for MAC. Macro point remains: closer to the BigXII than to the MAC and closer to the #1 ACC than to the #10 SBC

(11-29-2017 06:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2017 11:12 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(11-27-2017 01:46 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-27-2017 01:12 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  The only poll that matters is the CFP one. The next most important is the massey composite which at least the best at trying to be impartial. If you like the AP poll, that only becomes relevant again after bowl games are played. Ending in the top25 is a nice feat.

IMO there are 3 schools better than USF that are non AAC G5's.

Massey composite has
9 UCF
17 Memphis
29 Boise State
30 Toledo
32 SDSU
33 USF
37 FAU
39 Fresno State

USF may be the 3rd best G5 but there is a huge lack of evidence to support that claim. Going 1-2 against Bowl teams means as much as winning the Sun Belt...."whod ya play?".

Boise state is 5-3 against bowl teams. 1 left.
Toledo is 4-2 against bowl teams. 1 left.
SDSU is 3-2 against bowl teams.
FAU is 7-3 against bowl teams. 1 left.
Fresno State is 3-2 against bowl teams. 1 left.

cfp only matters for the access bowl, thats decided so its now irrelevant to the g5

AP/Coach defines your final rank and how your season will be remember. saying only cfp matters is naive... almost all sports databases records your final AP as your defining factor..
houston never cracked top 17 in the cfp in 15...every database say #8 Houston in 2015...none note our cfp ranking

i didn't care to read the rest of your justification why massey matters more..it doesnt
literally in 4 months usf will be remembered as a top 20 AP team....nothing about your team

also toledo guy you keep jumping back and forth between "resume" and how good they are eye test, and sometimes blur them to say you are using resume as deciding who is better on the field....

also what is your justification for toledo being better than usf....
usf lost 2 games on CRAZY endings (hailmary 4 and 24 vs houston, kick return td with 1 minute left)

toledo was blown out by ohio...

Blown out by Ohio and blew out an 8 win team CMU. Something USF cant say they have done. Beat another 8 win team by 10 and they are respected because of a P5 win... (NIU beat Nebraska ..who sucks but oh well.) And we are going to beat a team who beat Ohio twice. Our RB got hurt in the first drive against them. So whatever. OU Is a badish loss but they are 8-4 and viewed equal to Houston. The difference between USFs resume and Toledo's is that we have other wins also equivalent to Houston and USF has no good win of note. If Temple is? So is Akron x2(assuming) and WMU.

9-2 with top 10 loss and middle road loss with no middle road wins.

11-2 with top 10 loss and Middle road loss with 4 middle road wins.

Close? Sure. I nod the 2nd.

houston beat arizona, has a top 3 finalist for defensive player of the year..

i hate record arguments... c-usa has a lot of .500 teams or above teams, theya re all trash...
NO ONE VIEWS houston and ohio the same..houston would be a 10+ point favorite against ohio if we played in ohio (we both know this as fact ,no matter how you try to twist it)


and the loss to houston was on a hail mary..HAIL MARY...lost to ucf on a last minute kick return td

ohio BLEW YOU OUT!!!!!! 38-10...THIRTY EIGHT!!! TO TEN
Your claim to being good is cmu...CMU!!!!!!!

Answer this honestly, who would be favored in a USF vs toledo game....usf would be by 5+

stop it, i hate when people cant be objective...

By the computer polls? Toledo would be favored. By the media who already had USF in the top 25 prior to the season? USF would be favored. Vegas? Not sure. USF has media hype and people havent seen us play... Id bet USF would be favored. Doesnt mean that the spread is an indicator of the final game score? We could easily beat that spread. We have whooped on some above .500 and MIDDLE RANKED teams. (WMU, CMU, NIU, Akron) Has USF? No. NIU's record is a product of bad competition? 7 win BC. 10 win SDSU. Whatever Nebraska is. They played us and CMU as well. Thats a waaaaay better schedule than USF played.

Houston got BLOWN OUT by TULSA... BLOWN OUT by TEXAS Tech. Dont fool yourself. Overall record is where you start basing a resume. SOS and scores in those games follow.

ID NEVER claim beating a 7-5 CUSA is something to brag about. But if that argument was against beating 4 and 5 win teams? At least its something!

you realize houston only lost by 3 points to texas tech? and had a chance to win it at the end???

and an argument could be made if deriq king (4star dual threat qb) was our qb instead of kyle allen (pro-style qb)..those games are 100% different...usf/navy played king...houston runs a read-option offense (dual threat offense)

you also keep diverting my point..usf has 2 losses on crazy ending...one will finish a top 10 team.....usf was inches from a perfect season..inches from beating a top 10 ucf

and if we are going by the eye test, you have to take into account what we know is cpable of this team..usf returned most of its starters from last year that had a bowl p5 win and a top 25 win...the reason bama, oklahoma and clemson are ranked higher than miami and goergis is because of their recent history

(11-30-2017 01:01 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(11-29-2017 06:01 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-29-2017 11:12 AM)pesik Wrote:  

(11-27-2017 01:46 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-27-2017 01:12 AM)pesik Wrote:  cfp only matters for the access bowl, thats decided so its now irrelevant to the g5

AP/Coach defines your final rank and how your season will be remember. saying only cfp matters is naive... almost all sports databases records your final AP as your defining factor..
houston never cracked top 17 in the cfp in 15...every database say #8 Houston in 2015...none note our cfp ranking

i didn't care to read the rest of your justification why massey matters more..it doesnt
literally in 4 months usf will be remembered as a top 20 AP team....nothing about your team

also toledo guy you keep jumping back and forth between "resume" and how good they are eye test, and sometimes blur them to say you are using resume as deciding who is better on the field....

also what is your justification for toledo being better than usf....
usf lost 2 games on CRAZY endings (hailmary 4 and 24 vs houston, kick return td with 1 minute left)

toledo was blown out by ohio...

Blown out by Ohio and blew out an 8 win team CMU. Something USF cant say they have done. Beat another 8 win team by 10 and they are respected because of a P5 win... (NIU beat Nebraska ..who sucks but oh well.) And we are going to beat a team who beat Ohio twice. Our RB got hurt in the first drive against them. So whatever. OU Is a badish loss but they are 8-4 and viewed equal to Houston. The difference between USFs resume and Toledo's is that we have other wins also equivalent to Houston and USF has no good win of note. If Temple is? So is Akron x2(assuming) and WMU.

9-2 with top 10 loss and middle road loss with no middle road wins.

11-2 with top 10 loss and Middle road loss with 4 middle road wins.

Close? Sure. I nod the 2nd.

houston beat arizona, has a top 3 finalist for defensive player of the year..

i hate record arguments... c-usa has a lot of .500 teams or above teams, theya re all trash...
NO ONE VIEWS houston and ohio the same..houston would be a 10+ point favorite against ohio if we played in ohio (we both know this as fact ,no matter how you try to twist it)


and the loss to houston was on a hail mary..HAIL MARY...lost to ucf on a last minute kick return td

ohio BLEW YOU OUT!!!!!! 38-10...THIRTY EIGHT!!! TO TEN
Your claim to being good is cmu...CMU!!!!!!!

Answer this honestly, who would be favored in a USF vs toledo game....usf would be by 5+

stop it, i hate when people cant be objective...

By the computer polls? Toledo would be favored. By the media who already had USF in the top 25 prior to the season? USF would be favored. Vegas? Not sure. USF has media hype and people havent seen us play... Id bet USF would be favored. Doesnt mean that the spread is an indicator of the final game score? We could easily beat that spread. We have whooped on some above .500 and MIDDLE RANKED teams. (WMU, CMU, NIU, Akron) Has USF? No. NIU's record is a product of bad competition? 7 win BC. 10 win SDSU. Whatever Nebraska is. They played us and CMU as well. Thats a waaaaay better schedule than USF played.

Houston got BLOWN OUT by TULSA... BLOWN OUT by TEXAS Tech. Dont fool yourself. Overall record is where you start basing a resume. SOS and scores in those games follow.

ID NEVER claim beating a 7-5 CUSA is something to brag about. But if that argument was against beating 4 and 5 win teams? At least its something!

you realize houston only lost by 3 points to texas tech? and had a chance to win it at the end???

and an argument could be made if deriq king (4star dual threat qb) was our qb instead of kyle allen (pro-style qb)..those games are 100% different...usf/navy played king...houston runs a read-option offense (dual threat offense)

you also keep diverting my point..usf has 2 losses on crazy ending...one will finish a top 10 team.....usf was inches from a perfect season..inches from beating a top 10 ucf

and if we are going by the eye test, you have to take into account what we know is cpable of this team..usf returned most of its starters from last year that had a bowl p5 win and a top 25 win...the reason bama, oklahoma and clemson are ranked higher than miami and goergis is because of their recent history

Eye test on a team who has played no one but 1 great team and 1 good team. And is 0-2 vs. Them. Can you agree on that??

I said early in this thread the eye test is a different and valid way to evaluate the teams... And USF may be better than Toledo if you are using that metric. But no one here has been watching Toledo? So how fair is it to compare at all?

My 1 sole argument is that IF USF is in fact better than Boise state, SDSU, Fresno State, and Toledo....there is no evidence besides 2 close losses to good teams to prove it. That in itself is a lack of evidence IMO.

(11-30-2017 02:32 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  My 1 sole argument is that IF USF is in fact better than Boise state, SDSU, Fresno State, and Toledo....there is no evidence besides 2 close losses to good teams to prove it. That in itself is a lack of evidence IMO.

There is no evidence the other way around. You argued the other way, several times, around without evidence, actual proof, yourself. That is what I, and others, have called you out on. In either case, there is not on the field evidence and never will be this year. It's all subjective, as is all of FBS for that matter, since so few games are played with so many teams out there.

(11-30-2017 08:02 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:32 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  My 1 sole argument is that IF USF is in fact better than Boise state, SDSU, Fresno State, and Toledo....there is no evidence besides 2 close losses to good teams to prove it. That in itself is a lack of evidence IMO.

There is no evidence the other way around. You argued the other way, several times, around without evidence, actual proof, yourself. That is what I, and others, have called you out on. In either case, there is not on the field evidence and never will be this year. It's all subjective, as is all of FBS for that matter, since so few games are played with so many teams out there.

USF HAS 6 BOTTOM 30 WINS

Massey composite
31 Toledo
34 USF

OPPONENTS
9 UCF LOSS
10 MIAMI LOSS
46 Houston LOSS
58 NIU WIN
63 Ohio LOSS
67 CMU WIN
73 Temple WIN
81 WMU WIN
83 AKRON WIN
84 TULANE WIN
92 EMU WIN
100 UC WIN
105 NEVADA WIN
107 TULSA BOTH WIN
110 ECU WIN
111 ILLINOIS WIN
112 UCONN WIN
117 BGSU WIN
126 BALL STATE WIN
127 SJSU WIN

(11-30-2017 12:23 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 08:02 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:32 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  My 1 sole argument is that IF USF is in fact better than Boise state, SDSU, Fresno State, and Toledo....there is no evidence besides 2 close losses to good teams to prove it. That in itself is a lack of evidence IMO.

There is no evidence the other way around. You argued the other way, several times, around without evidence, actual proof, yourself. That is what I, and others, have called you out on. In either case, there is not on the field evidence and never will be this year. It's all subjective, as is all of FBS for that matter, since so few games are played with so many teams out there.

USF HAS 6 BOTTOM 30 WINS

Massey composite
31 Toledo
34 USF

OPPONENTS
9 UCF LOSS
10 MIAMI LOSS
46 Houston LOSS
58 NIU WIN
63 Ohio LOSS
67 CMU WIN
73 Temple WIN
81 WMU WIN
83 AKRON WIN
84 TULANE WIN
92 EMU WIN
100 UC WIN
105 NEVADA WIN
107 TULSA BOTH WIN
110 ECU WIN
111 ILLINOIS WIN
112 UCONN WIN
117 BGSU WIN
126 BALL STATE WIN
127 SJSU WIN

You proved what exactly? Every team from 67th CMU on was a win for both teams.

It's easy to understand that all those teams rated 80th, for example, should be beaten by both teams. It doesn't matter if Toledo's bad teams are slightly better than USF's bad teams.

That is unless you consider Nevada to be such a superior opponent versus SJSU. Yes, it makes Toledo's SOS look better but it's a moot point because neither Nevada or SJSU should beat either team.

Why do you guys keep engaging this fool?

(11-30-2017 12:23 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 08:02 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 02:32 AM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  My 1 sole argument is that IF USF is in fact better than Boise state, SDSU, Fresno State, and Toledo....there is no evidence besides 2 close losses to good teams to prove it. That in itself is a lack of evidence IMO.

There is no evidence the other way around. You argued the other way, several times, around without evidence, actual proof, yourself. That is what I, and others, have called you out on. In either case, there is not on the field evidence and never will be this year. It's all subjective, as is all of FBS for that matter, since so few games are played with so many teams out there.

USF HAS 6 BOTTOM 30 WINS

Massey composite
31 Toledo
34 USF

OPPONENTS
9 UCF LOSS
10 MIAMI LOSS
46 Houston LOSS
58 NIU WIN
63 Ohio LOSS
67 CMU WIN
73 Temple WIN
81 WMU WIN
83 AKRON WIN
84 TULANE WIN
92 EMU WIN
100 UC WIN
105 NEVADA WIN
107 TULSA BOTH WIN
110 ECU WIN
111 ILLINOIS WIN
112 UCONN WIN
117 BGSU WIN
126 BALL STATE WIN
127 SJSU WIN

I think he showed the schedules are at least comparable.

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I think he showed the schedules are at least comparable.

Comparable, yes. But he said SDST is clearly better in his first post in the thread, post #18. There simply is no proof, or way to prove such a claim. It's all speculative or suggestive. That's all I've been saying, yet he keeps arguing as if he has proof.

BTW, Fresno has beat both Boise and SDST, so why aren't they rated better by Massey?

(11-30-2017 07:57 PM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I think he showed the schedules are at least comparable.

Comparable, yes. But he said SDST is clearly better in his first post in the thread, post #18. There simply is no proof, or way to prove such a claim. It's all speculative or suggestive. That's all I've been saying, yet he keeps arguing as if he has proof.

BTW, Fresno has beat both Boise and SDST, so why aren't they rated better by Massey?

Best win

(11-30-2017 11:49 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 07:57 PM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I think he showed the schedules are at least comparable.

Comparable, yes. But he said SDST is clearly better in his first post in the thread, post #18. There simply is no proof, or way to prove such a claim. It's all speculative or suggestive. That's all I've been saying, yet he keeps arguing as if he has proof.

BTW, Fresno has beat both Boise and SDST, so why aren't they rated better by Massey?

Best win

Worst loss 38 to 10 to 8 and 4 team who would be 7 and 5 if Toledo took care of business, so what's your point? Crushed in 2 losses. Still don't see proof.

(11-26-2017 03:38 PM)otown Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 03:34 PM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 03:32 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 02:30 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 02:28 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  Looks like we can finish with 3 ranked teams again as long as USF wins their bowl game.

Yes, and possibly 3 top 20 teams as well.

If Memphis or UCF goes 2-0, we will have a top ten.

If Memphis can keep Norvell, Memphis should be relatively decently ranked to start next year. That should help getting more of our teams ranked sooner. There was on reason for Memphis not to be pre-season ranked this year.

UCF would start next season in the top 15. We essentially have everyone coming back.

The problem is that damn committee. We would once again start at 20 plus. Next year, the glass ceiling will be at 11 instead of 15.

The BCS was bull**** and now the CFP is. No different. Designed to keep teams out rather than make a pathway for anyone to have a shot at the title.

UCF at 12 is crap. USF and Memphis should be higher. If they still called us the Big East and this were still the BCS- UCF would be top 5

(12-01-2017 12:15 AM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 11:49 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-30-2017 07:57 PM)sfink16 Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  I think he showed the schedules are at least comparable.

Comparable, yes. But he said SDST is clearly better in his first post in the thread, post #18. There simply is no proof, or way to prove such a claim. It's all speculative or suggestive. That's all I've been saying, yet he keeps arguing as if he has proof.

BTW, Fresno has beat both Boise and SDST, so why aren't they rated better by Massey?

Best win

Worst loss 38 to 10 to 8 and 4 team who would be 7 and 5 if Toledo took care of business, so what's your point? Crushed in 2 losses. Still don't see proof.

If Ohio had taken care of business to Akron and Buffalo who they were heavily favored over, we would have a rematch with them and theyd be 10-2.... They fell a part to end the year. Their running qb and rb is a miss match for us. Trust me. Wed love a chance at Ohio again. Theyve knocked us off 2 years in a row. Instead we are rewarded with Akron and are 20 point favorites. The 3 best teams in the league are in our division.

Its a bad loss in point margin to a fair team. But its a caliber of team USF didnt even play. We played lots of teams in that middle range this season. CMU and NIU and Ohio and Akron is why our SOS is better. Because those 4 teams are compared to Houston, Temple, Tulane, and UC.

(11-26-2017 09:30 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 08:43 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 06:44 PM)fanhood Wrote:  

(11-26-2017 06:15 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  AAC programs deserve better rankings... Here's what I think should be

8. UCF
14. Memphis
18. USF

I agree with your UCF and Memphis ranks. I would even say Memphis should be around 10.

But you cannot be serious about USF. Their best win was against Temple who is 6-6. Their second best win is against Tulane who is 5-7. USF should not be ranked. Their best "win" was the loss against UCF, which was an incredible game, and a great performance.

I think you dislike the fact that 3 AAC programs have been chosen as the best 25 in the country more than anything else.

The only poll that matters is the CFP one. The next most important is the massey composite which at least the best at trying to be impartial. If you like the AP poll, that only becomes relevant again after bowl games are played. Ending in the top25 is a nice feat.

IMO there are 3 schools better than USF that are non AAC G5's.

Massey composite has
9 UCF
17 Memphis
29 Boise State
30 Toledo
32 SDSU
33 USF
37 FAU
39 Fresno State

USF may be the 3rd best G5 but there is a huge lack of evidence to support that claim. Going 1-2 against Bowl teams means as much as winning the Sun Belt...."whod ya play?".

Boise state is 5-3 against bowl teams. 1 left.
Toledo is 4-2 against bowl teams. 1 left.
SDSU is 3-2 against bowl teams.
FAU is 7-3 against bowl teams. 1 left.
Fresno State is 3-2 against bowl teams. 1 left.

Where do i guarantee SDSU is better than usf? I say USF may be 3rd but going on resume there is a lack of evidence, then i attempt to prove why.

I say IMO as in... MY OPINION there are 3 better than and massey composite agrees.