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megadrone Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-09-2017 10:12 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  A couple of other conferences as well.

MVC and Southern.
I could have seen the CAA formed as an FBS conference and Patriot League.

MVC:
New Mexico State
Wichita State
Tulsa
Illinois State
Indiana State
West Texas A&M
All met the 17,000.
Drake, Southern Illinois did not meet it. Not 100% sure on Indiana State. All the schools listed were FBS Independent at the time.

What would an CAA FBS conference formed back in 1982 would look like? This includes schools mentioned that may not have been invited by the Big East.
UConn
UMass.
Rutgers
Richmond
Temple
William & Mary
Delaware
James Madison
ECU
Old Dominion
Later, Towson, New Hampshire, Stony Brook and Albany could replaced UConn. going to the AAC. Rutgers going to the Big 10. ECU going to the AAC. Temple to the AAC.

Villanova, Davidson, VCU, George Mason, and others would not have been invites.

OVC schools at one point FBS or now FBS.
Akron
Tennessee State
Middle Tennessee State
Western Kentucky
All were FBS Independents at the time, but OVC in all sports.

Army, Navy, Holy Cross and Colgate were FBS Independents back then. If they can formed the conference then with Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh joining? Lafayette and Lehigh had one game reported over 40,000 fans at a neutral site that is an NFL stadium. Those Patriot League schools could packed the stands if they have the right stadiums.


Southern Conference 1 A indies.
Chattanooga
East Tennessee State
The Citadel
Furman
VMI
Appalachian State
Marshall could be invited back to get into FBS.
Georgia Southern could get invited laters.
Western Carolina.
They could gotten the four OVC schools to join as well.

Southland had:
Lamar
McNeese State
Arkansas State
La. Tech
La.-Monroe
La.-Lafayette
North Texas
Texas State
UTA
UTSA

All possibilities if conferences stayed with FBS at the time.

Maybe the Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 sponsors football, picking up the Yankee Conference schools -- as they did later on but as a 1A Conference. Also depends on whether Villanova drops football or not.

Rutgers, WVU, Penn State, UMass, Rhode Island, Pitt (which didn't leave the A10 until the Big East rejected Penn State), Villanova or Temple. Still might not have stayed together. There are other schools that don't play football (St. Bonaventure, St. Joe's, GW) in the configuration. Maybe if this was Paterno's Eastern Conference, Penn State doesn't leave the A10 with their note under the door. I just don't see Umass and Rhode Island in the same conference as Penn State and Pitt, which were all E8 members. Hard for the New England schools to support at the same level.

Schools in the northeast weren't consistent in their support of football. Even Syracuse was playing in Archbold until 1978, and that had a 25K configuration. Rutgers has a 23K configuration on campus, roughly the same for Temple in their on campus stadium. Penn State and Pitt were playing on a different level, but were conference mates aligned for basketball with other schools having varying level of support.

Rutgers and Temple played in the pro stadia to meet the attendance requirement. The other schools in the E8/A10 didn't have that option. Hard to see it coming together.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 11:15 AM by megadrone.)
07-09-2017 11:12 AM
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Kittonhead Online
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Post: #32
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
In 1968 Louisville & Cincinnati were very close to accepting invitations to the MAC. This is on the heels of the building boom for the MAC in the Vietnam era.

MAC of 69'
Western Michigan
Louisville
Cincinnati
Miami U.
Bowling Green
Toledo
Kent State
Ohio

This would have easily made the MAC a stronger conference than the MVC in men's basketball and would have impacted the mid 70's MAC realignment.

MAC of 75'
Northern Illinois
Western Michigan
Louisville
Ball State
Cincinnati
Miami U.
Bowling Green
Toledo
Kent State
Ohio

It could have lasted until the days of conference TV deals in the 90's where frustrated by the lack of national TV exposure UL and UC move on to CUSA. It's after the attendance rule is implemented so no chance in hell of Eastern Michigan ever getting into the MAC. Akron also doesn't get in because the MAC is full with 10 members.

Marshall & Buffalo then replace UL/UC when they leave for CUSA.

MAC of 95'
Northern Illinois
Western Michigan
Ball State
Miami U.
Bowling Green
Toledo
Kent State
Marshall
Ohio
Buffalo

Would Marshall have left in 2005 a 10 team MAC that never had EMU, CMU and Akron in it? Maybe they wouldn't have felt the need to do so. WMU I'm sure would have been much stronger all those years without CMU/EMU competition and NIU would have never left to go independent.
07-09-2017 11:42 AM
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panite Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 04:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I love the speculative history.

I've always wondered about if an eastern all sports league might have emerged centered around Penn St and attracted both Florida St and Miami. The Florida schools and Penn St would be the stars of the show with VT, Syracuse, WVU, and BC making nice showings through the 90s and 00s. (Sorry Rutgers, Temple, and Pitt you're all still cellar dwellers in this timeline)

The question is would is league be able to earn big tv dollars and its best members not lured away? Perhaps Penn St, much like Texas, would prefer to be king in its league and enjoy having a voting block supporting them.

I'm guessing circa 2004 this league steals GT and Clemson from the ACC to get to 12 and start a title game and to better tie in the Florida schools to the rest of the league.

ACC is reduced to Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, NC St, WF and has to add Louisville, Cincy, USF, and UCF.

In 2012 this league expands again to 16 with Duke, UNC, Maryland, and UVA. NC St joins the SEC at roughly the same time (instead of Missouri) and Louisville slips into the Big 12.

I like this idea a lot. If I were to flesh out the present day alignment of this timeline, would it be something like this?

"Eastern Athletic Conference" (EAC)
Eastern: Boston College, Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Maryland, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia
Athletic: Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Penn State, Syracuse, Temple, Virginia, Virginia Tech

Protected crossovers: Boston College/Syracuse, Clemson/Georgia Tech, Duke/North Carolina, Florida State/Miami, Maryland/Virginia, Pittsburgh/Penn State, Rutgers/Temple, West Virginia/Virginia Tech

Big 12
Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Louisville, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Big Ten
East: Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue
West: Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Wisconsin

Protected crossover: Illinois/Northwestern

Pac-12
North: California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, UCLA, USC, Utah

Protected crossovers: California/UCLA, California/USC, Stanford/UCLA, Stanford/USC

SEC
Eastern: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, NC State, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
Western: Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Protected crossovers: Florida/LSU, Georgia/Auburn, Kentucky/Mississippi State, NC State/Arkansas, South Carolina/Texas A&M, Tennessee/Alabama, Vanderbilt/Ole Miss

Independent
Notre Dame

ACC
East: Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, South Florida, Wake Forest
West: Houston, Memphis, Navy, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa

Obviously, there's a lot of parallelism here. What do you think?

Your dreaming on that EAC combo. They never would have pulled the founding ACC teams away and GT would not have joined either. When GT left the SEC their next conference stop was the ACC which had the higher Academic Standards they were looking for. Florida State wasn't coming North either to join Miami. They were looking at the ACC all along when Clemson was demanding football upgrades for the conference and the SEC rejected them. So was Miami but they originally were snuffed at so they joined the OBE when the Independents were dropping like flies. Both Florida schools would have joined the SEC with Florida if they could have over the ACC but were rejected so the ACC was their fall back plan. Miami went with plan C the OBE because of a lot of Northern Alumni when the ACC originally turned them down. 04-cheers
07-09-2017 11:43 AM
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Post: #34
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 09:56 PM)AppfanInCAAland Wrote:  I've often wondered what things would look like if back 50-51 when the bigger programs split off from the SoCon to form the ACC if they had went with an all big state school alignment that featured Va Tech and WVU instead of Duke and Wake Forest. I suspect those two would have stayed in the SoCon, and so would Richmond, W&M, and Davidson. It would have become a southern A-10 and schools like ECU, App State, and Marshall would not have had a home to move into from the NAIA in the 60s. Well Marshall had the MAC.

On the MAC what if the decision in the early 80's was to move down to 1-AA instead of investing like crazy to stay at the top level?

Toledo, CMU and WMU made the attendance requirements. They may have aligned with Tulsa and Wichita State in the MVC.

Ohio could have taken St. Joe's spot in the A10 back in 1982. Football stadium was only 14,000 at the time but the Athens bypass was in. Could be a CAA level football program today.
07-09-2017 11:56 AM
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.
07-09-2017 12:18 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 04:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  
(07-07-2017 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I love the speculative history.

I've always wondered about if an eastern all sports league might have emerged centered around Penn St and attracted both Florida St and Miami. The Florida schools and Penn St would be the stars of the show with VT, Syracuse, WVU, and BC making nice showings through the 90s and 00s. (Sorry Rutgers, Temple, and Pitt you're all still cellar dwellers in this timeline)

The question is would is league be able to earn big tv dollars and its best members not lured away? Perhaps Penn St, much like Texas, would prefer to be king in its league and enjoy having a voting block supporting them.

I'm guessing circa 2004 this league steals GT and Clemson from the ACC to get to 12 and start a title game and to better tie in the Florida schools to the rest of the league.

ACC is reduced to Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, NC St, WF and has to add Louisville, Cincy, USF, and UCF.

In 2012 this league expands again to 16 with Duke, UNC, Maryland, and UVA. NC St joins the SEC at roughly the same time (instead of Missouri) and Louisville slips into the Big 12.

I like this idea a lot. If I were to flesh out the present day alignment of this timeline, would it be something like this?

"Eastern Athletic Conference" (EAC)
Eastern: Boston College, Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Maryland, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia
Athletic: Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Penn State, Syracuse, Temple, Virginia, Virginia Tech

Protected crossovers: Boston College/Syracuse, Clemson/Georgia Tech, Duke/North Carolina, Florida State/Miami, Maryland/Virginia, Pittsburgh/Penn State, Rutgers/Temple, West Virginia/Virginia Tech

Big 12
Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Louisville, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Big Ten
East: Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue
West: Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Wisconsin

Protected crossover: Illinois/Northwestern

Pac-12
North: California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, UCLA, USC, Utah

Protected crossovers: California/UCLA, California/USC, Stanford/UCLA, Stanford/USC

SEC
Eastern: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, NC State, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
Western: Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Protected crossovers: Florida/LSU, Georgia/Auburn, Kentucky/Mississippi State, NC State/Arkansas, South Carolina/Texas A&M, Tennessee/Alabama, Vanderbilt/Ole Miss

Independent
Notre Dame

ACC
East: Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, South Florida, Wake Forest
West: Houston, Memphis, Navy, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa

Obviously, there's a lot of parallelism here. What do you think?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption that the 16 member Eastern Conference I described eventually all comes together circa 2011 and that the strength of Penn St, Florida St, and Miami gives it a tv deal that keeps its best schools from being poached.

The Big Ten: unable to go east, in the early 90s they look west to go to 12, adding Missouri and Nebraska.

In the Big 8 the loss of two programs is a big hit. Colorado departs for the Pac 10 who also tries to recruit Texas but is unsuccessful.

The SWC, who recently lost Arkansas to the SEC is down to just 8 members sees the oprtunity to bolster their ranks and pull in the 5 remaining Big 8 schools. (Perhaps instead of absorbing them in a full merger the SWC Disbands and Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, and Houston make the move and BYU joins in as #12)

If Rice and SMU are left out they join the WAC. If/when the WAC expands in 1996 if BYU and TCU aren't in the mix adding SJSU, Tulsa, and UNLV only puts the WAC at 14 instead of 16 and maybe the smaller size makes that league more stable and the MWC never spins off.
07-09-2017 12:57 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.


Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.
07-09-2017 01:33 PM
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
Going back to June 1990 --- the FIRST move that was made in the expansion re-shuffle was the B1G inviting Penn State.

But that vote was close. Penn State only got in by 1 vote.

What if one school changed their vote from "yes" to "no"?

The Big East announced in February 1991 they would start sponsoring football. A B1G-rejected PSU is now an option - I'd posit that PSU gets the invite instead of their fellow A-10 member Temple. In the immediate short-term, PSU would keep Olympic Sports in the A-10 as to not disrupt the Big East basketball cart. In the longer-term, PSU Olympic Sports join the Big East (as happened w/ WVU & Rutgers, beginning in 1995).

For the rest of the 1990s, that makes for a stronger Big East - the ACC/Big East "reckoning" likely still happens in the early 2000s, but the Big East is in more of a position of strength. Not unrealistic that teams would have gone from the ACC to the Big East (e.g., Maryland) as opposed to the reverse.

Meanwhile, the B1G --- it's a considerably more regional and insular conference during the 1990s. Any expansion plans to the East are pretty much blocked by a more powerful (than in real life) Big East. Any expansion plans would have to go West - maybe they get a couple Big 8 teams instead of all Big 8 teams joining into the Big XII.
(This post was last modified: 07-09-2017 01:48 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
07-09-2017 01:46 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-09-2017 01:33 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(07-09-2017 12:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Frankly, that's where the MAC should be. I can't think of one MAC program that's head and shoulders FBS. Akron, Toledo and NIU are decent as is Buffalo but I can't think of any others.


Bowling Green and Western Michigan both have put together quiet a resume in winning at the FBS level. Miami have been good at times, but lousy a lot. The ones I think that have issues are Kent State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan are the ones to worry about.

The MAC is tough. The Sun Belt is full of schools who "earned" their way up by meeting standards. The MAC seems to almost be grandfathered in. The Ivy League would,be treated better.

I think Buffalo, Ohio, and Toledo are the safest. I'd be most concerned for Ball St, Eastern Michigan, Kent St, and Akron. The rest being likely okay.
07-09-2017 02:03 PM
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RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-09-2017 01:46 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  Going back to June 1990 --- the FIRST move that was made in the expansion re-shuffle was the B1G inviting Penn State.

But that vote was close. Penn State only got in by 1 vote.

What if one school changed their vote from "yes" to "no"?

The Big East announced in February 1991 they would start sponsoring football. A B1G-rejected PSU is now an option - I'd posit that PSU gets the invite instead of their fellow A-10 member Temple. In the immediate short-term, PSU would keep Olympic Sports in the A-10 as to not disrupt the Big East basketball cart. In the longer-term, PSU Olympic Sports join the Big East (as happened w/ WVU & Rutgers, beginning in 1995).

For the rest of the 1990s, that makes for a stronger Big East - the ACC/Big East "reckoning" likely still happens in the early 2000s, but the Big East is in more of a position of strength. Not unrealistic that teams would have gone from the ACC to the Big East (e.g., Maryland) as opposed to the reverse.

Meanwhile, the B1G --- it's a considerably more regional and insular conference during the 1990s. Any expansion plans to the East are pretty much blocked by a more powerful (than in real life) Big East. Any expansion plans would have to go West - maybe they get a couple Big 8 teams instead of all Big 8 teams joining into the Big XII.

Perhaps, feeling pressured, the B1G invite Nebraska, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Colorado from the Big 8. The SWC (without Arkansas) stays intact but adds Oklahoma St and Kansas St for 10. Iowa St is stranded or maybe goes in as #11 to the SWC.
07-09-2017 02:10 PM
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