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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 02:00 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Imagine if Sewanee and especially Georgia Tech and Tulane had stayed in the SEC.

Or Grinnell, Drake and Washington, Missouri stayed in the Big 12.
University of Chicago stayed in the Big 10.

A lot of history.
07-08-2017 02:10 PM
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arkstfan Away
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Post: #22
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 02:09 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 03:55 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Here's one that nearly happened.
End of 1981 NCAA votes to change the "or" in the I-A criteria to make stadium size and attendance mandatory and permits schools to ask for a waiver AState AD Larry Lacewell goes to his father's best friend Bear Bryant to ask for assistance getting a one year waiver for AState and he successfully swings the ten or so extra votes he wasn't able to drum up in reality getting AState the waiver.

If the waiver is granted the handshake deal on the table is:
Arkansas State, SW Louisiana (now ULL), McNeese State, Tulsa, Wichita State and Southern Miss will form a new football league. Independence Bowl indicates interest in the champion.

McNeese State never drops to I-AA.
Wichita State after the vote played football 5 more years. 1982 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1983 4 home games all non I-A, 1984 5 home games 4 non I-A, 1985 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1986 5 home games 4 non I-A.
With a conference and fewer games against non I-A maybe they ride it out. When they dropped there were claims that a professor had taken students out to the stadium and measured the length of each bleacher and applied the NCAA standard of how many inches equaled a seat and found it was like 4 or 8 seats short of 30,000 and Wichita State was to be reclassified and another version said that the consultants hired to evaluate athletics discovered Wichita State would have to reclassify because they were short on both home and the old home and away attendance measures and suggested dropping instead of reclassifying. In either version it was felt Wichita State couldn't survive the blow and mount a return. Under the old rules simply being in a 6 team league with four schools that met the standard would have staved off reclassification threats and may have saved Wichita State football.

If it comes together you have to wonder how the WAC and CUSA may have developed. Maybe the American South is never formed which means the Sun Belt maybe folds after the Metro and Great Midwest raids so never progressed to add football.
Depending on how the schools performed in the stability of a conference TCU, SMU and Rice raid the league to salvage the SWC and if they take Tulane who had nearly been admitted when Arkansas left goes SWC then CUSA maybe doesn't happen since it started with the minimum of six football counting Tulane. Could have prevented CUSA from happening or happening with different schools.

Any interest from LaTech in that '81 league? I know they were 1-A fairly early on.

Tech would have been involved had their waiver been approved but they received fewer votes than AState.
07-08-2017 03:29 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 02:00 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Imagine if Sewanee and especially Georgia Tech and Tulane had stayed in the SEC.

Or Chicago in the Big Ten and South Carolina in the ACC.
07-08-2017 03:37 PM
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RutgersMike Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
My alternative history would have Rutgers accept the invitation to be a founding member of the Big East. That would mean no Seton Hall and SHU's no vote becomes a RU yes vote when Penn State was being considered for admission. An eastern football conference could have been formed a few years earlier with PSU in the fold.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 04:02 PM by RutgersMike.)
07-08-2017 04:02 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-07-2017 08:12 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I love the speculative history.

I've always wondered about if an eastern all sports league might have emerged centered around Penn St and attracted both Florida St and Miami. The Florida schools and Penn St would be the stars of the show with VT, Syracuse, WVU, and BC making nice showings through the 90s and 00s. (Sorry Rutgers, Temple, and Pitt you're all still cellar dwellers in this timeline)

The question is would is league be able to earn big tv dollars and its best members not lured away? Perhaps Penn St, much like Texas, would prefer to be king in its league and enjoy having a voting block supporting them.

I'm guessing circa 2004 this league steals GT and Clemson from the ACC to get to 12 and start a title game and to better tie in the Florida schools to the rest of the league.

ACC is reduced to Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, NC St, WF and has to add Louisville, Cincy, USF, and UCF.

In 2012 this league expands again to 16 with Duke, UNC, Maryland, and UVA. NC St joins the SEC at roughly the same time (instead of Missouri) and Louisville slips into the Big 12.

I like this idea a lot. If I were to flesh out the present day alignment of this timeline, would it be something like this?

"Eastern Athletic Conference" (EAC)
Eastern: Boston College, Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Maryland, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, West Virginia
Athletic: Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, Penn State, Syracuse, Temple, Virginia, Virginia Tech

Protected crossovers: Boston College/Syracuse, Clemson/Georgia Tech, Duke/North Carolina, Florida State/Miami, Maryland/Virginia, Pittsburgh/Penn State, Rutgers/Temple, West Virginia/Virginia Tech

Big 12
Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Louisville, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas, Texas Tech

Big Ten
East: Indiana, Michigan, Michigan State, Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue
West: Illinois, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Wisconsin

Protected crossover: Illinois/Northwestern

Pac-12
North: California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Washington, Washington State
South: Arizona, Arizona State, Colorado, UCLA, USC, Utah

Protected crossovers: California/UCLA, California/USC, Stanford/UCLA, Stanford/USC

SEC
Eastern: Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, NC State, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt
Western: Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M

Protected crossovers: Florida/LSU, Georgia/Auburn, Kentucky/Mississippi State, NC State/Arkansas, South Carolina/Texas A&M, Tennessee/Alabama, Vanderbilt/Ole Miss

Independent
Notre Dame

ACC
East: Central Florida, Cincinnati, Connecticut, East Carolina, South Florida, Wake Forest
West: Houston, Memphis, Navy, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa

Obviously, there's a lot of parallelism here. What do you think?
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 09:50 PM by Nerdlinger.)
07-08-2017 04:08 PM
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lew240z Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 01:06 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Here is a couple....
1985 - Bradley and Creighton join the MCC.
1989/1990 - Missouri State to American South instead of MVC.
1990 - Florida State to SEC instead of South Carolina.
1994 - Missouri, Kansas, and Rutgers to Big Ten instead of Big 12.
2005 - Missouri State to Sun Belt.

1994 - Texas and Colorado accept their invitations to the PAC.
07-08-2017 09:47 PM
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AppfanInCAAland Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
I've often wondered what things would look like if back 50-51 when the bigger programs split off from the SoCon to form the ACC if they had went with an all big state school alignment that featured Va Tech and WVU instead of Duke and Wake Forest. I suspect those two would have stayed in the SoCon, and so would Richmond, W&M, and Davidson. It would have become a southern A-10 and schools like ECU, App State, and Marshall would not have had a home to move into from the NAIA in the 60s. Well Marshall had the MAC.
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 09:58 PM by AppfanInCAAland.)
07-08-2017 09:56 PM
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zibby Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
When the ACC added Florida State, they tried to get Syracuse to join, too. I don't believe Syracuse seriously considered leaving the Big East, but if they had...

- The Big East football conference never forms.
- When the SEC goes to 12, the ACC responds by adding Penn State and Miami.
- The remaining Eastern independents join Conference USA.
- Rutgers never achieves prominence.
- UConn and UMass don't move up from I-AA.
- Missouri goes to the Big 10 along with Nebraska.
- Oklahoma goes to the SEC along with Texas A&M.
07-09-2017 08:09 AM
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LUSportsFan Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-08-2017 03:55 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Here's one that nearly happened.
End of 1981 NCAA votes to change the "or" in the I-A criteria to make stadium size and attendance mandatory and permits schools to ask for a waiver AState AD Larry Lacewell goes to his father's best friend Bear Bryant to ask for assistance getting a one year waiver for AState and he successfully swings the ten or so extra votes he wasn't able to drum up in reality getting AState the waiver.

If the waiver is granted the handshake deal on the table is:
Arkansas State, SW Louisiana (now ULL), McNeese State, Tulsa, Wichita State and Southern Miss will form a new football league. Independence Bowl indicates interest in the champion.

McNeese State never drops to I-AA.
Wichita State after the vote played football 5 more years. 1982 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1983 4 home games all non I-A, 1984 5 home games 4 non I-A, 1985 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1986 5 home games 4 non I-A.
With a conference and fewer games against non I-A maybe they ride it out. When they dropped there were claims that a professor had taken students out to the stadium and measured the length of each bleacher and applied the NCAA standard of how many inches equaled a seat and found it was like 4 or 8 seats short of 30,000 and Wichita State was to be reclassified and another version said that the consultants hired to evaluate athletics discovered Wichita State would have to reclassify because they were short on both home and the old home and away attendance measures and suggested dropping instead of reclassifying. In either version it was felt Wichita State couldn't survive the blow and mount a return. Under the old rules simply being in a 6 team league with four schools that met the standard would have staved off reclassification threats and may have saved Wichita State football.

If it comes together you have to wonder how the WAC and CUSA may have developed. Maybe the American South is never formed which means the Sun Belt maybe folds after the Metro and Great Midwest raids so never progressed to add football.
Depending on how the schools performed in the stability of a conference TCU, SMU and Rice raid the league to salvage the SWC and if they take Tulane who had nearly been admitted when Arkansas left goes SWC then CUSA maybe doesn't happen since it started with the minimum of six football counting Tulane. Could have prevented CUSA from happening or happening with different schools.

Another one that was close would be if one more Southland Conference program had met the 17,000 attendance average required for the conference to remain D-IA (currently FBS). Instead, the conference was forced down to D-IAA (currently FCS) in 1981 along with several others. USL (now ULL or Louisiana) and McNeese State met it. Louisiana Tech, Arkansas State, and Lamar were close to meeting it.

There would have probably been some conference realignment moves later, but UTA might still field a football team. Lamar might not have dropped football eight years later for 20 years after playing as an D-IAA independent from 1987-1989. USL, Arkansas State, and Louisiana Tech would not have needed to play several years as a D-IA independent. USL and Arkansas State could have played in a more geographically aligned conference pre-Sun Belt football. A pretty good basketball league could have stayed intact.

It is interesting to play "what if's".
07-09-2017 08:49 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Alternate History College Sports Realignment Scenarios
(07-09-2017 08:49 AM)LUSportsFan Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 03:55 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  Here's one that nearly happened.
End of 1981 NCAA votes to change the "or" in the I-A criteria to make stadium size and attendance mandatory and permits schools to ask for a waiver AState AD Larry Lacewell goes to his father's best friend Bear Bryant to ask for assistance getting a one year waiver for AState and he successfully swings the ten or so extra votes he wasn't able to drum up in reality getting AState the waiver.

If the waiver is granted the handshake deal on the table is:
Arkansas State, SW Louisiana (now ULL), McNeese State, Tulsa, Wichita State and Southern Miss will form a new football league. Independence Bowl indicates interest in the champion.

McNeese State never drops to I-AA.
Wichita State after the vote played football 5 more years. 1982 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1983 4 home games all non I-A, 1984 5 home games 4 non I-A, 1985 5 home games 2 non I-A, 1986 5 home games 4 non I-A.
With a conference and fewer games against non I-A maybe they ride it out. When they dropped there were claims that a professor had taken students out to the stadium and measured the length of each bleacher and applied the NCAA standard of how many inches equaled a seat and found it was like 4 or 8 seats short of 30,000 and Wichita State was to be reclassified and another version said that the consultants hired to evaluate athletics discovered Wichita State would have to reclassify because they were short on both home and the old home and away attendance measures and suggested dropping instead of reclassifying. In either version it was felt Wichita State couldn't survive the blow and mount a return. Under the old rules simply being in a 6 team league with four schools that met the standard would have staved off reclassification threats and may have saved Wichita State football.

If it comes together you have to wonder how the WAC and CUSA may have developed. Maybe the American South is never formed which means the Sun Belt maybe folds after the Metro and Great Midwest raids so never progressed to add football.
Depending on how the schools performed in the stability of a conference TCU, SMU and Rice raid the league to salvage the SWC and if they take Tulane who had nearly been admitted when Arkansas left goes SWC then CUSA maybe doesn't happen since it started with the minimum of six football counting Tulane. Could have prevented CUSA from happening or happening with different schools.

Another one that was close would be if one more Southland Conference program had met the 17,000 attendance average required for the conference to remain D-IA (currently FBS). Instead, the conference was forced down to D-IAA (currently FCS) in 1981 along with several others. USL (now ULL or Louisiana) and McNeese State met it. Louisiana Tech, Arkansas State, and Lamar were close to meeting it.

There would have probably been some conference realignment moves later, but UTA might still field a football team. Lamar might not have dropped football eight years later for 20 years after playing as an D-IAA independent from 1987-1989. USL, Arkansas State, and Louisiana Tech would not have needed to play several years as a D-IA independent. USL and Arkansas State could have played in a more geographically aligned conference pre-Sun Belt football. A pretty good basketball league could have stayed intact.

It is interesting to play "what if's".


A couple of other conferences as well.

MVC and Southern.
I could have seen the CAA formed as an FBS conference and Patriot League.

MVC:
New Mexico State
Wichita State
Tulsa
Illinois State
Indiana State
West Texas A&M
All met the 17,000.
Drake, Southern Illinois did not meet it. Not 100% sure on Indiana State. All the schools listed were FBS Independent at the time.

What would an CAA FBS conference formed back in 1982 would look like? This includes schools mentioned that may not have been invited by the Big East.
UConn.
UMass.
Rutgers
Richmond
Temple
William & Mary
Delaware
James Madison
ECU
Old Dominion
Later, Towson, New Hampshire, Stony Brook and Albany could replaced UConn. going to the AAC. Rutgers going to the Big 10. ECU going to the AAC. Temple to the AAC.

Villanova, Davidson, VCU, George Mason, and others would not have been invites.

OVC schools at one point FBS or now FBS.
Akron
Tennessee State
Middle Tennessee State
Western Kentucky
All were FBS Independents at the time, but OVC in all sports.

Army, Navy, Holy Cross and Colgate were FBS Independents back then. If they can formed the conference then with Bucknell, Lafayette and Lehigh joining? Lafayette and Lehigh had one game reported over 40,000 fans at a neutral site that is an NFL stadium. Those Patriot League schools could packed the stands if they have the right stadiums.


Southern Conference 1 A indies.
Chattanooga
East Tennessee State
The Citadel
Furman
VMI
Appalachian State
Marshall could be invited back to get into FBS.
Georgia Southern could get invited laters.
Western Carolina.
They could gotten the four OVC schools to join as well.

Southland had:
Lamar
McNeese State
Arkansas State
La. Tech
La.-Monroe
La.-Lafayette
North Texas
Texas State
UTA
UTSA

All possibilities if conferences stayed with FBS at the time.
07-09-2017 10:12 AM
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