They have all the tools to be way more than they are. Big stadium that hosts a major bowl, no pro sports for hundreds of miles in every direction, great basketball arena and history. At the very least they should be dominating what's left of C-USA instead of being trashed by newcomers like UTSA.

Demographics

Both for the school (pretty much a commuter) an the town (not exactly a booming industrial center like Houston, Dallas or Austin)

Too remote from the recruiting cores of Texas.

Program was better in the WAC in the day when the WAC was something.

(06-05-2017 05:57 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  They have all the tools to be way more than they are. Big stadium that hosts a major bowl, no pro sports for hundreds of miles in every direction, great basketball arena and history. At the very least they should be dominating what's left of C-USA instead of being trashed by newcomers like UTSA.

What exactly should UTEP be?

(1) El Paso is only the 68th largest MSA in the country. This puts them about equal with MSAs like McAllen, Texas and Bakersfield, California. Neither of them have pro sports teams either, and both are fairly isolated geographically. I don't see either CS-Bakersfield or UTRGV lighting things on fire either, right?

(2) The MSA population is one-third of that for San Antonio. Seeing UTSA "pass UTEP by" is not overly surprising - UTSA has many more structural advantages vs. UTEP.

(3) I've been there and I like the area. But facts are: UTEP isn't exactly Santa Barbara or South Beach. It's tough to recruit there.

I think they're doing fine. It's a tough place to win. NMSU up I-25 is further proof of such.

@Stugray

That changes little. Who cares if they're a commuter school. They're the closest thing El Paso has to pro sports. That alone should spike attendance, especially if good. They regularly play in Houston and Dallas, so that should spike recruiting.

They need to tap into the 2 million Ciudad Juarez residents.

Their immediate area is a poor recruiting region and their location doesnt appeal to many recruits from the more populated areas of Texas. That said, making better coaching hires would make them much better than they are.

UTEP needs to take UTSA with them and join the MWC as 13 and 14. members. Being in the same conference with North Texas, FIU and FAU brings down the moral of the fans.

UTEP's troubles stem from a few different things IMHO:

Houston, SMU, and TCU are all in higher status leagues now. These programs have more prestige now and can se that to win on the recruiting trail. These programs also are in larger, more attractive cities.

Another factor I think is the rise of programs like UTSA and UNT. They also have the metro appeal that those first three have and despite being new kids on the block they can attract East Texas recruits with the promise of playing closer to home and in facilities like Apogee and the Alamo Dome.

I also think that the rise of lots of new FBS programs in the Sunbelt region are impacting Texas recruiting and at UTEPs expense.

(06-05-2017 06:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @Stugray

That changes little. Who cares if they're a commuter school. They're the closest thing El Paso has to pro sports. That alone should spike attendance, especially if good. They regularly play in Houston and Dallas, so that should spike recruiting.

I think you live in the South. If you look at the North and especially the west, alumni drive attendance. that depends on school spirit, which is zero in a commuter. Grads from El Paso pretty much live in the eastern half of Texas, where the jobs are - so much for alumni. Townees just do not support college sports in the west, outside of Boise, and maybe until 10-15 years ago a bit in Fresno. That is a big reason why attendance numbers are so much lower in the west. (There is also an ethnic make up element in that as well, the west is far less white & black, the two primary college football fan bases)

You must look at things from a perspective other than the South to understand what is going on. In the B1G the Midwest has some of the "townee" support because the schools are so tied up in state pride. That doesn't exist in the west, and certainly not for schools with a city in their name (Boise aside).

(06-05-2017 06:06 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 05:57 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  They have all the tools to be way more than they are. Big stadium that hosts a major bowl, no pro sports for hundreds of miles in every direction, great basketball arena and history. At the very least they should be dominating what's left of C-USA instead of being trashed by newcomers like UTSA.

What exactly should UTEP be?

(1) El Paso is only the 68th largest MSA in the country. This puts them about equal with MSAs like McAllen, Texas and Bakersfield, California. Neither of them have pro sports teams either, and both are fairly isolated geographically. I don't see either CS-Bakersfield or UTRGV lighting things on fire either, right?

(2) The MSA population is one-third of that for San Antonio. Seeing UTSA "pass UTEP by" is not overly surprising - UTSA has many more structural advantages vs. UTEP.

(3) I've been there and I like the area. But facts are: UTEP isn't exactly Santa Barbara or South Beach. It's tough to recruit there.

I think they're doing fine. It's a tough place to win. NMSU up I-25 is further proof of such.

There are almost a million people out there not including Las Cruces or Juarez. No pro sports, who cares where it ranks in the overall rankings? If anything, it's more glaring that a school that big can't command a bigger market share.

UTSA is a fly by night that didn't even have a football team 10 years ago. Other than the Alamodome, they don't have much on UTEP. They're in a bigger market but one tied to Texas and even Texas A&M. No way should UTEP routinely get blown out at home by them. Lastly, El Paso is not Las Cruces. It won't be ever confused with Miami Beach but it's a nice major city that should draw people.

(06-05-2017 06:15 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  UTEP needs to take UTSA with them and join the MWC as 13 and 14. members. Being in the same conference with North Texas, FIU and FAU brings down the moral of the fans.

UTEP and Rice approached the MWC a couple years ago about membership but were turned down. MWC would be great for them but the MWC doesn't want to split their pot with two more schools.

C2 I agree with u, even tough San Ant is my fav city
there has to be talent in Mex, at least be soccor power
there in nice div, city supports bowl game
BB draws well
UTEP should be doing better

(06-05-2017 06:22 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 06:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @Stugray

That changes little. Who cares if they're a commuter school. They're the closest thing El Paso has to pro sports. That alone should spike attendance, especially if good. They regularly play in Houston and Dallas, so that should spike recruiting.

I think you live in the South. If you look at the North and especially the west, alumni drive attendance. that depends on school spirit, which is zero in a commuter. Grads from El Paso pretty much live in the eastern half of Texas, where the jobs are - so much for alumni. Townees just do not support college sports in the west, outside of Boise, and maybe until 10-15 years ago a bit in Fresno. That is a big reason why attendance numbers are so much lower in the west. (There is also an ethnic make up element in that as well, the west is far less white & black, the two primary college football fan bases)

You must look at things from a perspective other than the South to understand what is going on. In the B1G the Midwest has some of the "townee" support because the schools are so tied up in state pride. That doesn't exist in the west, and certainly not for schools with a city in their name (Boise aside).

El Paso isn't really in the west, it's a hybrid of southern and western with even a little mix of Mexican/Latino flavor. Remember, it had Jim Crow laws on the books just like the rest of Texas.

El Paso is similar to Tucson in a number of ways. While it shouldn't enjoy Arizona's support, there's no reason UTEP can't be like Boise State or even better.

(06-05-2017 10:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 06:22 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 06:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @Stugray

That changes little. Who cares if they're a commuter school. They're the closest thing El Paso has to pro sports. That alone should spike attendance, especially if good. They regularly play in Houston and Dallas, so that should spike recruiting.

I think you live in the South. If you look at the North and especially the west, alumni drive attendance. that depends on school spirit, which is zero in a commuter. Grads from El Paso pretty much live in the eastern half of Texas, where the jobs are - so much for alumni. Townees just do not support college sports in the west, outside of Boise, and maybe until 10-15 years ago a bit in Fresno. That is a big reason why attendance numbers are so much lower in the west. (There is also an ethnic make up element in that as well, the west is far less white & black, the two primary college football fan bases)

You must look at things from a perspective other than the South to understand what is going on. In the B1G the Midwest has some of the "townee" support because the schools are so tied up in state pride. That doesn't exist in the west, and certainly not for schools with a city in their name (Boise aside).

El Paso isn't really in the west, it's a hybrid of southern and western with even a little mix of Mexican/Latino flavor. Remember, it had Jim Crow laws on the books just like the rest of Texas.

El Paso is similar to Tucson in a number of ways. While it shouldn't enjoy Arizona's support, there's no reason UTEP can't be like Boise State or even better.

A little mix of Mexican/Latino? Man - El Paso is ALL Mexican/Latino - statistically and culturally speaking.

Nothing against that mix - I used to live there, and I loved it.

I agree that UTEP should be doing better. They operate on almost double the athletic budget as NMSU, and don't get that much better results - worse in BB. The fan support is there - if they win. I don't agree that there is not support from the town. It is there if they can win.

I do agree that recruiting to El Paso is difficult. The local population does not produce many D1 level football or basketball players. And El Paso is a LONG way from other population centers. Tough to convince someone who has a choice of San Antonio or El Paso, to chose EP.

Back 20 years ago, many of those D1 choices didn't exist for recruits. Now, the UTSA's and Texas State's of the world dilute the recruiting pool, and I think UTEP (and NMSU) suffer as a result).

Come on though, this is a school that has won before on a national level. The national title was a long time ago but they were still good within the past 25 years with players like Tim Hardaway. And El Paso was dustbin back then compared to now. So I don't buy the idea that they can't draw talent out there. Maybe if it was a small private school but it is a major public school that plays throughout Texas and thus recruits most of Texas.

NuMexAg,

Amen. You nailed it on El Paso. Amazing how many people in the southeastern part of Texas have so little understanding of West Texas and El Paso. Very different history, very different settlement patterns.

My brother's wife is from El Paso. Spanish family (as they prefer to say). And you describe El Paso accurately. From what I know about the history, that notch in Texas below New Mexico, which includes El Paso, was kept by Texas when New Mexico was formed to create a Spanish speaking state (newspaper sales in the late 1800s indicate New Mexico was 95% Spanish speaking at the time of Statehood). El Paso really should have been part of New Mexico, but Texas wanted to hang onto the Rio Grande and the last port. So there you have a El Paso 745 miles from Houston, and 725 miles from San Diego. (It's 550 miles to San Antonio, and 640 to Dallas). Culturally it's almost as far apart. It's in a different time zone from eastern Texas.

The alumni problem has been commented on by UTEP's President Natalicio, who a few years back said they want to play schools in the eastern part of Texas so their alumni can see their school play. (Fundraising angle too). The jobs are in Dallas, Austin, and Houston, and that is where the alumni go (or California).

(06-05-2017 10:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 06:22 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(06-05-2017 06:08 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  @Stugray

That changes little. Who cares if they're a commuter school. They're the closest thing El Paso has to pro sports. That alone should spike attendance, especially if good. They regularly play in Houston and Dallas, so that should spike recruiting.

I think you live in the South. If you look at the North and especially the west, alumni drive attendance. that depends on school spirit, which is zero in a commuter. Grads from El Paso pretty much live in the eastern half of Texas, where the jobs are - so much for alumni. Townees just do not support college sports in the west, outside of Boise, and maybe until 10-15 years ago a bit in Fresno. That is a big reason why attendance numbers are so much lower in the west. (There is also an ethnic make up element in that as well, the west is far less white & black, the two primary college football fan bases)

You must look at things from a perspective other than the South to understand what is going on. In the B1G the Midwest has some of the "townee" support because the schools are so tied up in state pride. That doesn't exist in the west, and certainly not for schools with a city in their name (Boise aside).

El Paso isn't really in the west, it's a hybrid of southern and western with even a little mix of Mexican/Latino flavor. Remember, it had Jim Crow laws on the books just like the rest of Texas.

El Paso is similar to Tucson in a number of ways. While it shouldn't enjoy Arizona's support, there's no reason UTEP can't be like Boise State or even better.

As someone who works in El Paso regularly....El Paso is not in any way "southern" El Paso isn't Albuquerque/Santa Fe (Who refer to themselves as "Spanish") nor is it anything like Houston or Dallas. El Paso is unique. One thing, why UTEP doesn't have a baseball team is beyond me. Both UNM and NMSU have good baseball programs...UTEP is western and belongs with its old WAC rivals in the MWC.

I never said it was Southern in totality but the influence is there even if it's minor. As I said, the segregation laws were on the books and it technically is in a southern state. It had a history like anywhere else, even if not as extreme.

That said, I agree with you that UTEP belongs in the MWC. This C-USA experiment needs to come to an end.

(06-06-2017 02:22 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  I never said it was Southern in totality but the influence is there even if it's minor. As I said, the segregation laws were on the books and it technically is in a southern state. It had a history like anywhere else, even if not as extreme.

That said, I agree with you that UTEP belongs in the MWC. This C-USA experiment needs to come to an end.

As one that was born in Wisconsin but raised in El Paso from an early age, the segregation laws of Texas (and other former Confederate states) were the only reason there was segregation there. El Paso, as part of Texas, simply was under Texas law.

Support for Miner sports is only strong when teams are doing well and that's rare for football. The best attendance ever was a 47k avg for the 2005 season which was a bowl year. The last 30 years UTEP has averaged 30k despite the last 2 very low attendance years of 23k each.