If a state (or in the case of Minneapolis, a local government) is considering a minimum wage of $X/hr, should tipped workers be required to count their tips towards that $X ??


I see both sides of the argument. Where this really hits home, I think by far, is in bars and restaurants -- places often where being located in the inner city, as opposed to a suburb, is almost a necessity. Again, that comment is made moreso from the viewpoint of Mpls. Might hold far less true in other metros.

Bar and restaurant owners say that the IRS already requires tips to be counted in wages, for tax purposes -- so why can't they be "credited" towards the wages?

Servers, bartenders, and wage activists say that the very spirit and definition of tips are as an optional, customer given bonus, so they should not "penalize" the base wages.



Here goes nothing: what say you??

Are tips wages or not? There's your answer.

The problem, that you are now stumbling into, is that by forcing companies to pay a certain amount for wages (such as $15 per hour), it is reducing those servers who earn a very decent income off of tips. A perso who is being paid by the hour is not entitled to tips. Tips are only there because the workers want to be paid upon the quality of their service, not some predetermined amount. All of them make more than minimum wage (as required by law) Many of them make MUCH more than minimum wage, and are reliant upon their income from tips in order to make a decent living. Why the libturds want to screw with this is beyond me, as it does nothing but create losers.

At least in Mpls, the proposal currently favored to pass is that servers, bartenders, etc. would make a $15/hr base PLUS they'd still receive tips.

For tax purposes, their total wages would be base + tips (depending where you work, might come out to $20, $25, $30, ... per hour, on average).

But for purposes of the proposed new law, if they made say $7/hr in tips, the business would still have to pay them $15/hr base on top of that (as opposed to just an "additional" $8/hr, to get up to $15/hr, which is what owners want).

(05-25-2017 12:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  At least in Mpls, the proposal currently favored to pass is that servers, bartenders, etc. would make a $15/hr base PLUS they'd still receive tips.

For tax purposes, their total wages would be base + tips (depending where you work, might come out to $20, $25, $30, ... per hour, on average).

But for purposes of the proposed new law, if they made say $7/hr in tips, the business would still have to pay them $15/hr base on top of that (as opposed to just an "additional" $8/hr, to get up to $15/hr, which is what owners want).

I'm not sure folks would tip if they knew the person was making $15/hour.

No. Tips should not be counted as wages under the current system.

In the future if a person gets at least minimum wage for their job then tips should be taxed not as income but as gifts.

Thanks for the substantive posts, guys!

VA - that is a very interesting point, getting to the heart of the history of tipping in the first place. A long American tradition ... but should it always stay that way?

Kaplony - another interesting point, and perhaps also a more correct way to do it, especially if they're already making a living wage

(05-25-2017 12:20 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(05-25-2017 12:18 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  At least in Mpls, the proposal currently favored to pass is that servers, bartenders, etc. would make a $15/hr base PLUS they'd still receive tips.

For tax purposes, their total wages would be base + tips (depending where you work, might come out to $20, $25, $30, ... per hour, on average).

But for purposes of the proposed new law, if they made say $7/hr in tips, the business would still have to pay them $15/hr base on top of that (as opposed to just an "additional" $8/hr, to get up to $15/hr, which is what owners want).

I'm not sure folks would tip if they knew the person was making $15/hour.

It would make to where I would only do it if the server went way above and beyond.

And I say that as someone who tips the vast majority of the time at a minimum of 25%, but has also left a "tip" of two pennies taped to the note of an especially bad waiter. To my credit I did pull the manager aside and inquired if the bus staff shared in the tips and when I was told they did I left 15% for them, but I made it very clear to the manager that it was just for them and not the waiter.

(05-25-2017 12:26 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Thanks for the substantive posts, guys!

VA - that is a very interesting point, getting to the heart of the history of tipping in the first place. A long American tradition ... but should it always stay that way?

Kaplony - another interesting point, and perhaps also a more correct way to do it, especially if they're already making a living wage

Tipping is a strange American custom folks from other nations find weird. As for me, I'd be much more reluctant to tip if the minimum wage was increased to $15/hour. I usually tip around 20% now.

As someone who always tips at least 20% I did very much enjoy not tipping in Australia. Now the "sticker shock" was there as food was more expensive, but once you realized the price listed is the entire price you pay and start doing the math it came out pretty close to even, and with the favorable exchange rate a good bit better than even.

(05-25-2017 12:11 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Are tips wages or not? There's your answer.

The problem, that you are now stumbling into, is that by forcing companies to pay a certain amount for wages (such as $15 per hour), it is reducing those servers who earn a very decent income off of tips. A perso who is being paid by the hour is not entitled to tips. Tips are only there because the workers want to be paid upon the quality of their service, not some predetermined amount. All of them make more than minimum wage (as required by law) Many of them make MUCH more than minimum wage, and are reliant upon their income from tips in order to make a decent living.

Exactly... A good waiter or waitress can make way over the minimum wage with tips.... A so-so one will still push 12-15 an hour.

Quote:Why the libturds want to screw with this is beyond me, as it does nothing but create losers.

You already answered the question "workers want to be paid upon the quality of their service, not some predetermined amount"...

To the libturds that means "not fair"

I also usually tip around 20%. Not always, but usually for sit-down service. Where I don't do it as much is lately some places have those iPads at the register where you use your finger to sign, and they always ask for a tip, even if it's just for scooping ice cream. Those are times were I either don't tip or tip less than 20%.


Now I would not mind at all, one day, getting to a place where the advertised price was indeed the all-encompassing price, including all taxes and living base wages for the service staff. That would be fine for me.

Should a hedge fund managers carried interest earnings be counted as wages?

(05-25-2017 01:01 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  You already answered the question "workers want to be paid upon the quality of their service, not some predetermined amount"...

To the liberals that means "not fair"

I bet if you actually asked your server, he/she might disagree with you!

(05-25-2017 01:10 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(05-25-2017 01:01 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  You already answered the question "workers want to be paid upon the quality of their service, not some predetermined amount"...

To the liberals that means "not fair"

I bet if you actually asked your server, he/she might disagree with you!

Going to continue my experiment with taking you off of ignore... The congressional district post was sensible and interesting...

So....

Having had to work for tips (than and commission), at a different point in my life, I can tell you that you do appreciate it when you make a real effort to serve well and take home more than the folks just calling it in.

My sister made a ton on tips while waiting in college, and she too would have rather had that than the minimum wage.

(05-25-2017 01:21 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  My sister made a ton on tips while waiting in college, and she too would have rather had that than the minimum wage.

If it was an either/or choice, then I would agree with you.

But if it's a minimum wage PLUS tips, why would servers be against that?

(05-25-2017 01:28 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(05-25-2017 01:21 PM)Bull_Is_Back Wrote:  My sister made a ton on tips while waiting in college, and she too would have rather had that than the minimum wage.

If it was an either/or choice, then I would agree with you.

But if it's a minimum wage PLUS tips, why would servers be against that?

Because most of the tips would go away.... As others here have said:

"As for me, I'd be much more reluctant to tip if the minimum wage was increased to $15/hour."

"As someone who always tips at least 20% I did very much enjoy not tipping in Australia."

"Now I would not mind at all, one day, getting to a place where the advertised price was indeed the all-encompassing price, including all taxes and living base wages for the service staff."
---

Let's say I take my family out to eat... That's me, the wife, and things 1-4... Even if I go to a place like Perkins that's going to be a 40-50$ meal. An ok waiter would get a 10$ tip, a good waiter would get a 15$ tip.

I'm there *maybe* an hour. That person just made more off my table, just my table, than a 15$ minimum wage. If they are taking care of four or five tables that's quite a bit more.

So losing even a small percentage of tippers would hurt them more than help them.

OK, yes, I do see your point.

(although small thing ... I do think some places put all tips into a pot and then give out a split of the pot, but that may not be the majority of places)


That claim/hypothesis has been absent the articles on this, that I've read. The only two narratives that have been presented are of the owners who say "tips should be included in wages" and from the others who say "wages should be base + tips".

No one is talking about the potential ramifications of service staff making $15/hr reducing the tips that people give.

If staff makes $15 per hour, they are not going to get diddly **** in tips.

Which is why those servers who rely upon tips dont want it. You are going to destroy their income. Instead of $25 per hour, they would first fall back to $15 per hour, then get replaced by a robot.

(05-25-2017 01:56 PM)UofMstateU Wrote:  Which is why those servers who rely upon tips dont want it. You are going to destroy their income. Instead of $25 per hour, they would first fall back to $15 per hour, then get replaced by a robot.

If servers actually thought this, I think there would be a much louder opposition to the new law, from them, and it would be reported.

But at least in the articles I've read, they aren't saying that, and even restaurant owners aren't pointing this out as a counter-argument.


Either, this idea has completely slipped the minds of people having this argument, or most (all) of them think that won't be the case.

I guess we will see!

(05-25-2017 01:42 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  I do think some places put all tips into a pot and then give out a split of the pot, but that may not be the majority of places

Some places do that, but the really good wait staffers will go work somewhere else.

Quote:No one is talking about the potential ramifications of service staff making $15/hr reducing the tips that people give.

I've seen it mentioned in articles, but sometimes I see it left out.

At the end of the day if 1/4 people stop tipping because it's in the cost of the meal via a 15$ minimum wage, then the wait staff stands to lose money.