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What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
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illiniowl Offline
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Post: #121
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-15-2017 10:09 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:11 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.

A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it.

You may be onto something there.

If we believe that what others are doing, while working so far, is objectively improper and likely to blow up in their faces, then caution is justified.
If we believe that what others are doing is proper and we are simply slow on the uptake, then we are certainly missing the boat.
Both situations (justifiable caution AND missing the boat) have been features of Rice policy over the years.

I highly doubt that we have looked at Vanderbilt and Stanford and actually believed they were/are cheating. For Pete's sake, our AD is from Stanford.

Or put it this way: if we did actually do an analysis (do we not have a compliance office? do we not have a general counsel's office? do we not have access to outside firms that specialize in NCAA issues?) and come to the conclusion that what they are doing is illegal, we should have been petitioning the NCAA on a daily basis ever since to audit them, stop them, sanction them, etc. And if the NCAA cleared them or declined to act, we should have immediately taken that as a green light.

So now we're back to incompetence or gross neglect as the only explanations.
03-15-2017 03:43 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #122
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-15-2017 10:09 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:11 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.
A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it.
You may be onto something there.
If we believe that what others are doing, while working so far, is objectively improper and likely to blow up in their faces, then caution is justified.
If we believe that what others are doing is proper and we are simply slow on the uptake, then we are certainly missing the boat.
Both situations (justifiable caution AND missing the boat) have been features of Rice policy over the years.

As has plenty of doing the latter while rationalizing it by claiming to be doing the former.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2017 05:32 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-15-2017 05:31 PM
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georgewebb Offline
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Post: #123
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-15-2017 05:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-15-2017 10:09 AM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:11 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(03-14-2017 05:04 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  So, if we are not doing what Vandy (and others) are doing, then again there are only two possible explanations. One, alluded to above, is ignorance/incompetence on the part of our coaches and AD. Let's not assume that. The other explanation, which is unfortunately far more plausible, is that our coaches/AD have asked the academic/financial aid side of the University for the same tools our competitors are using to keep up with the state of the art in playing within but to the full extent of what the rules allow, and have been told no. Not because it would be impossible/illegal (which clearly it wouldn't be, else why would Vandy be doing it), but because we simply choose not to. (One other note: our endowment is $5.5B and Vandy's is $4B.) Which once again points toward the conclusion that this university, at bottom, does not want or see the need for anything other than a window-dressing level athletic program.
A third possible explanation, though I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. Rice believes what other schools are doing violates the rule or the spirit of the rule and is taking the high road by not engaging in such actions, even though Rice understands that the rule is not being enforced as Rice understands it.
You may be onto something there.
If we believe that what others are doing, while working so far, is objectively improper and likely to blow up in their faces, then caution is justified.
If we believe that what others are doing is proper and we are simply slow on the uptake, then we are certainly missing the boat.
Both situations (justifiable caution AND missing the boat) have been features of Rice policy over the years.

As has plenty of doing the latter while rationalizing it by claiming to be doing the former.

Indeed!
03-15-2017 06:11 PM
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Almadenmike Online
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Post: #124
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-15-2017 03:43 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  I highly doubt that we have looked at Vanderbilt and Stanford and actually believed they were/are cheating. For Pete's sake, our AD is from Stanford.

Or put it this way: if we did actually do an analysis (do we not have a compliance office? do we not have a general counsel's office? do we not have access to outside firms that specialize in NCAA issues?) and come to the conclusion that what they are doing is illegal, we should have been petitioning the NCAA on a daily basis ever since to audit them, stop them, sanction them, etc. And if the NCAA cleared them or declined to act, we should have immediately taken that as a green light.

So now we're back to incompetence or gross neglect as the only explanations.

Our president, David Leebron, was on the NCAA Board of Directors from 2012 - 2016. I know he was frustrated by the willingness of that board -- made up of 18 university presidents and chancellors, one per conference, so a majority non-Power 5 -- to kowtow to the Power 5's insatiable appetite for $$, power and domination. But if he took advantage of his position to stimulate any NCAA initiatives to improve the situation -- or move Rice in ways that would steer it onto a path of greater success -- I'm not heard of them.

Another missed opportunity? Or an unrealistic and impossible dream?
03-16-2017 12:36 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #125
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-15-2017 03:43 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  I highly doubt that we have looked at Vanderbilt and Stanford and actually believed they were/are cheating. For Pete's sake, our AD is from Stanford.

Or put it this way: if we did actually do an analysis (do we not have a compliance office? do we not have a general counsel's office? do we not have access to outside firms that specialize in NCAA issues?) and come to the conclusion that what they are doing is illegal, we should have been petitioning the NCAA on a daily basis ever since to audit them, stop them, sanction them, etc. And if the NCAA cleared them or declined to act, we should have immediately taken that as a green light.

So now we're back to incompetence or gross neglect as the only explanations.

If you look at it from the perspective of the sports program, yes, incompetence or gross neglect given the funding could be appropriated.

The causal question then becomes has that funding been or could it be made available. That is a trustee/administration question.

And there the perspective changes and the answer. The board and trustee's duties (legally) are not the same as a private enterprise (i.e. to maximize shareholder value, which requires some risk taking). In terms of a university, the priorities are reversed to protect the value of the assets (endowment). In short, when the question reverts to that level of decision -- then it is obvious *why* that step may not have been undertaken, as strictly speaking, to do so would undercut that duty. (or in the words of other posters, this results in an ultra-cautious approach to these types of expenditures, which seems to be the direction that Division 1 sports is on at Rice.)

We can make the argument that it is peanuts compared to the overall value, and I am sure other schools have taken that approach. But it seems to me that vis-a-vis sports, the Rice Board and administration have put themselves after a period of long neglect in the position that sports *has* to show that an investment of this sort will be productive in light of *any* investment above and beyond maintenance.

The outlier, of course, is in the stadium and sports center refurbishment.

The best to hope for is that basketball can be raised to where Rice has an impact, and after which, other types of investments in Division 1 sports can be more probably. In fact, my guess is that basketball is the sole thread remaining in which to pin hopes of competing in Division 1, and reviving investment in other facets of Division 1, after the next 5 years.

It is sad that Rice squandered the opportunity post Baseball championship to do that. In that sense, I think Rice seriously missed the next-to-last boat out. Using that analogy, I think the current trajectory of basketball is the last boat out, and will be determinative of whether Rice continues in Division 1 at all.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2017 02:06 PM by tanqtonic.)
03-16-2017 02:04 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #126
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-16-2017 02:04 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(03-15-2017 03:43 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  I highly doubt that we have looked at Vanderbilt and Stanford and actually believed they were/are cheating. For Pete's sake, our AD is from Stanford.

Or put it this way: if we did actually do an analysis (do we not have a compliance office? do we not have a general counsel's office? do we not have access to outside firms that specialize in NCAA issues?) and come to the conclusion that what they are doing is illegal, we should have been petitioning the NCAA on a daily basis ever since to audit them, stop them, sanction them, etc. And if the NCAA cleared them or declined to act, we should have immediately taken that as a green light.

So now we're back to incompetence or gross neglect as the only explanations.

If you look at it from the perspective of the sports program, yes, incompetence or gross neglect given the funding could be appropriated.

The causal question then becomes has that funding been or could it be made available. That is a trustee/administration question.

And there the perspective changes and the answer. The board and trustee's duties (legally) are not the same as a private enterprise (i.e. to maximize shareholder value, which requires some risk taking). In terms of a university, the priorities are reversed to protect the value of the assets (endowment). In short, when the question reverts to that level of decision -- then it is obvious *why* that step may not have been undertaken, as strictly speaking, to do so would undercut that duty. (or in the words of other posters, this results in an ultra-cautious approach to these types of expenditures, which seems to be the direction that Division 1 sports is on at Rice.)

We can make the argument that it is peanuts compared to the overall value, and I am sure other schools have taken that approach. But it seems to me that vis-a-vis sports, the Rice Board and administration have put themselves after a period of long neglect in the position that sports *has* to show that an investment of this sort will be productive in light of *any* investment above and beyond maintenance.

The outlier, of course, is in the stadium and sports center refurbishment.

The best to hope for is that basketball can be raised to where Rice has an impact, and after which, other types of investments in Division 1 sports can be more probably. In fact, my guess is that basketball is the sole thread remaining in which to pin hopes of competing in Division 1, and reviving investment in other facets of Division 1, after the next 5 years.

It is sad that Rice squandered the opportunity post Baseball championship to do that. In that sense, I think Rice seriously missed the next-to-last boat out. Using that analogy, I think the current trajectory of basketball is the last boat out, and will be determinative of whether Rice continues in Division 1 at all.

I think this is spot on. Good job in summarizing the situation.

Rice without D1 sports would not be the Rice I attended.
03-16-2017 03:16 PM
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kinderowl Offline
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Post: #127
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
[quotea declining appeal due to lack of renovations
[/quote]

mind elaborating on what you think needs to be renovated?
03-16-2017 04:14 PM
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kinderowl Offline
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Post: #128
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-09-2017 08:20 AM)Old Sammy Wrote:  Fear the Southland. In 2003 the loss on the end of our 30 game winning streak was to Lamar. Rice was 2-3 vs the Southland that year.


or the very painful 2004 loss to TSU. fear the SWAC.
03-16-2017 04:32 PM
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Post: #129
RE: What's the deal with baseball scholarships?
(03-13-2017 04:18 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  
(03-13-2017 03:39 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  
(03-10-2017 04:17 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  As I posted in the Stanford thread, Rice's own stated criteria for $25K merit scholarships ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") not only would clearly allow them to be awarded to partial-scholarship athletes, it says on that very page that athletes have gotten them.

I don't think anyone has said that these or other merit scholarships can't be given to athletes.
I think everyone has said that they can't be given to athletes based on the fact that they are athletes.
If you know of a merit criterion that would allow Rice to give significant merit scholarships to baseball players in a way that is NOT tied to athletic ability, but without giving the same scholarship to essentially all or nearly all of the student body, please let us know. Since you seem certain that the answer is easy, I expect you will let us know very quickly.

I have suggested one possible way: give a big grant to all students from Texas.

Was it too much work for you to read the stated criteria both quoted and linked in my post? The criteria for a Rice Trustee's Scholarship are eminently discretionary and wide enough to drive a truck through: "distinguishing personal talents." A school -- especially a rich, private one -- can define merit however it chooses to and award scholarships on that basis to whomever it chooses. I assume most of our baseball recruits are not one-dimensional and in their high school careers demonstrated talents in areas such as leadership, entrepreneurship, music, or any of a thousand other fields. The fact that Vanderbilt and Stanford and others are doing it pretty much ipso facto means it CAN be done, as they aren't any keener to risk their academic reputations than we are.

IF we are choosing not to keep up with them, then that's on us and yet another indicator of how hidebound and unserious this place is about truly competing at a high Division I level.

Could not agree more!
Other schools choose to place a higher value on athletics than does Rice. I see nothing wrong w weighting the "merit" towards athletics anymore than the music school. etc
03-16-2017 04:51 PM
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