For the record, with respect to "ties" as wins: I believe the national golf publications that keep up with college golf statistics consider a tie for first as a "win" for statistical purposes, unless there specifically is a playoff. The only college tournament that has one of those for first place is the NCAA final. The regional NCAA tournament has a playoff but it is for the last spot as individual players into the NCAA final.

The same publications consider, for example, a five-way tie for fourth to be a 4th place finish, when player and team rankings are computed.

This differs from professional golf only in that the same five-way tie for fourth would have the players all able to claim a "top-five" finish, but they would split the total money designated for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th place equally. Ties still have sometimes great significance in that the top 12 players (and ties) from the Masters get invited back to Augusta each year, along with the top 4 (and ties....) from the other majors. Likewise for the other tournaments.

In golf, kissing your sister is still pretty good.

(04-12-2017 06:08 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  For the record, with respect to "ties" as wins: I believe the national golf publications that keep up with college golf statistics consider a tie for first as a "win" for statistical purposes, unless there specifically is a playoff. The only college tournament that has one of those for first place is the NCAA final. The regional NCAA tournament has a playoff but it is for the last spot as individual players into the NCAA final.

The same publications consider, for example, a five-way tie for fourth to be a 4th place finish, when player and team rankings are computed.

This differs from professional golf only in that the same five-way tie for fourth would have the players all able to claim a "top-five" finish, but they would split the total money designated for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th place equally. Ties still have sometimes great significance in that the top 12 players (and ties) from the Masters get invited back to Augusta each year, along with the top 4 (and ties....) from the other majors. Likewise for the other tournaments.

In golf, kissing your sister is still pretty good.

Without checking, I don't doubt you could be right about that stuff. But the point is that the author(s) of the copy (and Kenny Hawkins, who by shocking coincidence, again, used **exactly** the same words in the same order as the ETSU release) were deliberately twisting the story to make it more ETSU-friendly *at the expense of both the truth and greater clarity and specificity*. On purpose.

LOL. Well, Hallelujah, Mike White!
They've finally changed the team finish in the story:

"As a team, ETSU dropped to sixth place following the final 18 holes of play as the Bucs." [sic - yeah they just ended the changed verbiage like that. LOL.]

......And: "The victory is her second individual title in the last four outings."

However, they still say she "won" it, rather than tying for the win.

Now I wonder if he wants me to go back over all their copy for the past season(s) to verify the facts (as they've reported). If there were 3 of me, I just might do it, but there's not.

And you know, when a *real* journalist corrects earlier stories, they make a note of the corrections. I guess that's too much to ask here, as we know that ain't gonna happen - since as you all have pointed out, they're not "journalists".

(04-13-2017 01:22 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 06:08 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  For the record, with respect to "ties" as wins: I believe the national golf publications that keep up with college golf statistics consider a tie for first as a "win" for statistical purposes, unless there specifically is a playoff. The only college tournament that has one of those for first place is the NCAA final. The regional NCAA tournament has a playoff but it is for the last spot as individual players into the NCAA final.

The same publications consider, for example, a five-way tie for fourth to be a 4th place finish, when player and team rankings are computed.

This differs from professional golf only in that the same five-way tie for fourth would have the players all able to claim a "top-five" finish, but they would split the total money designated for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th place equally. Ties still have sometimes great significance in that the top 12 players (and ties) from the Masters get invited back to Augusta each year, along with the top 4 (and ties....) from the other majors. Likewise for the other tournaments.

In golf, kissing your sister is still pretty good.

Without checking, I don't doubt you could be right about that stuff. But the point is that the author(s) of the copy (and Kenny Hawkins, who by shocking coincidence, again, used **exactly** the same words in the same order as the ETSU release) were deliberately twisting the story to make it more ETSU-friendly *at the expense of both the truth and greater clarity and specificity*. On purpose.

No, the point of my post was exactly the opposite of story-twisting, in that the story was NOT twisted on the point of finishing first. When you finish tied for first in a college golf tournament, it's a win. The kid is considered winner. If the team finishes tied for first, it's considered a win. I read the written article and on that point it was factual. That was the point of my post.

On the rest of your point, I'd be inclined to give a 22 year old grad assistant a break for writing favorable copy before getting dinner, which I'm sure isn't steak.

(04-13-2017 07:41 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 01:22 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 06:08 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  For the record, with respect to "ties" as wins: I believe the national golf publications that keep up with college golf statistics consider a tie for first as a "win" for statistical purposes, unless there specifically is a playoff. The only college tournament that has one of those for first place is the NCAA final. The regional NCAA tournament has a playoff but it is for the last spot as individual players into the NCAA final.

The same publications consider, for example, a five-way tie for fourth to be a 4th place finish, when player and team rankings are computed.

This differs from professional golf only in that the same five-way tie for fourth would have the players all able to claim a "top-five" finish, but they would split the total money designated for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th place equally. Ties still have sometimes great significance in that the top 12 players (and ties) from the Masters get invited back to Augusta each year, along with the top 4 (and ties....) from the other majors. Likewise for the other tournaments.

In golf, kissing your sister is still pretty good.

Without checking, I don't doubt you could be right about that stuff. But the point is that the author(s) of the copy (and Kenny Hawkins, who by shocking coincidence, again, used **exactly** the same words in the same order as the ETSU release) were deliberately twisting the story to make it more ETSU-friendly *at the expense of both the truth and greater clarity and specificity*. On purpose.

No, the point of my post was exactly the opposite of story-twisting, in that the story was NOT twisted on the point of finishing first. When you finish tied for first in a college golf tournament, it's a win. The kid is considered winner. If the team finishes tied for first, it's considered a win. I read the written article and on that point it was factual. That was the point of my post.

On the rest of your point, I'd be inclined to give a 22 year old grad assistant a break for writing favorable copy before getting dinner, which I'm sure isn't steak.

Are you saying that a 22-yr. old grad student (who can't even distinguish between "match", "set", "game", and "point" for tennis purposes) knew this when he wrote the story? Extremely unlikely. As far as NCAA statistical purposes go, then OK, it's a win. But that's NOT the correct way to write the story. In ALL normal parlance, sports or otherwise, if you tie with somebody else, you *share* first place. Here was Furman's take on it ("Harford Ties for First"):

Furman's version of tying for first place

And then they repeat that in the body of the story. The NCAA may consider that a "win", but the rest of the world, in standard parlance does not. It's simply incorrect. Math trumps NCAA.

FURTHERMORE..........this has been going on for DECADES - at least back to John Cathey - who was spewing that kind of crap (actually it was even worse, albeit sometimes colorful) before this grad student was even born.

Now, the SoCon has selected them as the "co-golfer and student-athlete of the week". Did she "win" that honor, or share it? They *shared* it - because they *shared* the title at the Brickyard.

Here's another comparison. Furman's body-of-the-story about it:

"Harford and Loy share the league's weekly award after tying for medalist honors..."

ETSU's body-of-the-story version... They lead (first sentence) with "For her first place finish....", but then further down they 'admit' that she shared that: "In the most recent outing in Macon, Ga., Loy finished tied for first place....".

Which way of looking at things is more accurate? Furman's. Why spin things beyond the best, most *informative* way to represent them? What's wrong with saying that Loy "shared" both the title and co-player of the week honors? One can promote ETSU without diminishing the achievements of other competitors.
This kind of self-aggrandizement just leads to trouble. It's essentially taking a step towards dishonesty. It's not there, but it shows a disregard for representing the truth in the clearest manner.

FURTHER still, if we were going to "give [him] a break", then why did Mike White feel the need to make the corrections? It's simply a clear case of valuing self-promotion ahead of the best way to represent the truth. That's just wrong; it's LONG been corporate culture at the ETSU SID office, and I'd like to see it modified. The two, again, ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! You can pat yourself on the back a little bit without diluting the best way to represent the facts.
I'm kinda surprised Dick Sander is on board with this. (Maybe he's not.) He's pretty much a straight shooter. These types of releases don't (to me) seem to fit his way of being honest about stuff.

(04-14-2017 08:41 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 07:41 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  

(04-13-2017 01:22 AM)posterformerlyknownasthedoctor Wrote:  

(04-12-2017 06:08 PM)Buckyball Wrote:  For the record, with respect to "ties" as wins: I believe the national golf publications that keep up with college golf statistics consider a tie for first as a "win" for statistical purposes, unless there specifically is a playoff. The only college tournament that has one of those for first place is the NCAA final. The regional NCAA tournament has a playoff but it is for the last spot as individual players into the NCAA final.

The same publications consider, for example, a five-way tie for fourth to be a 4th place finish, when player and team rankings are computed.

This differs from professional golf only in that the same five-way tie for fourth would have the players all able to claim a "top-five" finish, but they would split the total money designated for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th place equally. Ties still have sometimes great significance in that the top 12 players (and ties) from the Masters get invited back to Augusta each year, along with the top 4 (and ties....) from the other majors. Likewise for the other tournaments.

In golf, kissing your sister is still pretty good.

Without checking, I don't doubt you could be right about that stuff. But the point is that the author(s) of the copy (and Kenny Hawkins, who by shocking coincidence, again, used **exactly** the same words in the same order as the ETSU release) were deliberately twisting the story to make it more ETSU-friendly *at the expense of both the truth and greater clarity and specificity*. On purpose.

No, the point of my post was exactly the opposite of story-twisting, in that the story was NOT twisted on the point of finishing first. When you finish tied for first in a college golf tournament, it's a win. The kid is considered winner. If the team finishes tied for first, it's considered a win. I read the written article and on that point it was factual. That was the point of my post.

On the rest of your point, I'd be inclined to give a 22 year old grad assistant a break for writing favorable copy before getting dinner, which I'm sure isn't steak.

Are you saying that a 22-yr. old grad student (who can't even distinguish between "match", "set", "game", and "point" for tennis purposes) knew this when he wrote the story? Extremely unlikely. As far as NCAA statistical purposes go, then OK, it's a win. But that's NOT the correct way to write the story. In ALL normal parlance, sports or otherwise, if you tie with somebody else, you *share* first place. Here was Furman's take on it ("Harford Ties for First"):

Furman's version of tying for first place

And then they repeat that in the body of the story. The NCAA may consider that a "win", but the rest of the world, in standard parlance does not. It's simply incorrect. Math trumps NCAA.

FURTHERMORE..........this has been going on for DECADES - at least back to John Cathey - who was spewing that kind of crap (actually it was even worse, albeit sometimes colorful) before this grad student was even born.

Now, the SoCon has selected them as the "co-golfer and student-athlete of the week". Did she "win" that honor, or share it? They *shared* it - because they *shared* the title at the Brickyard.

Here's another comparison. Furman's body-of-the-story about it:

"Harford and Loy share the league's weekly award after tying for medalist honors..."

ETSU's body-of-the-story version... They lead (first sentence) with "For her first place finish....", but then further down they 'admit' that she shared that: "In the most recent outing in Macon, Ga., Loy finished tied for first place....".

Which way of looking at things is more accurate? Furman's. Why spin things beyond the best, most *informative* way to represent them? What's wrong with saying that Loy "shared" both the title and co-player of the week honors? One can promote ETSU without diminishing the achievements of other competitors.
This kind of self-aggrandizement just leads to trouble. It's essentially taking a step towards dishonesty. It's not there, but it shows a disregard for representing the truth in the clearest manner.

FURTHER still, if we were going to "give [him] a break", then why did Mike White feel the need to make the corrections? It's simply a clear case of valuing self-promotion ahead of the best way to represent the truth. That's just wrong; it's LONG been corporate culture at the ETSU SID office, and I'd like to see it modified. The two, again, ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE! You can pat yourself on the back a little bit without diluting the best way to represent the facts.
I'm kinda surprised Dick Sander is on board with this. (Maybe he's not.) He's pretty much a straight shooter. These types of releases don't (to me) seem to fit his way of being honest about stuff.

You know, I really don't care if somebody in our SI Department has to correct how our kids wrote the story. It is supposed to be a learning process. I can easily look past the issue you are complaining about, because to me it isn't a big deal at all. The golf article by our SID was really more factual than I think you realized, because I don't believe you read GolfWeek or know how college golf statistics are kept. So to me, what's left is just nitpicking. You may well have a point about articles about other sports; I don't read all of those. But I don't remember anything grossly wrong in articles written about men's basketball, or football. I do read those.

Wouldn't compare us and FU, because (to borrow a phrase) with regards to FU, sir, I don't give a damn.

(04-14-2017 11:19 AM)Buckyball Wrote:  You know, I really don't care if somebody in our SI Department has to correct how our kids wrote the story. It is supposed to be a learning process. I can easily look past the issue you are complaining about, because to me it isn't a big deal at all. The golf article by our SID was really more factual than I think you realized, because I don't believe you read GolfWeek or know how college golf statistics are kept. So to me, what's left is just nitpicking. You may well have a point about articles about other sports; I don't read all of those. But I don't remember anything grossly wrong in articles written about men's basketball, or football. I do read those.

Wouldn't compare us and FU, because (to borrow a phrase) with regards to FU, sir, I don't give a damn.

That *position* may be a learning process - like all jobs, really. But the "finished product" should be better than a first draft of a class paper. And I strongly suspect Mike White would agree.

I used to have a subscription to Golf Week (but not lately) so I do have some idea about those statistics. But the stories put out by the ETSU SID aren't geared to those who read those mags on a regular basis. They're intended for mass consumption - and I think you know that. Thus common parlance should be the guiding principle in terms of communicating information.

Meanwhile............at Pinehurst, because of rain predicted for Monday, they've decided to try and play 36 holes today. ETSU had a very good first round, and is 11 up on UNC-G after 18. Trevor Hulbert is tied for the lead with a 71.

All 5 of ETSU's guys are in the top 15 (for now), which is rather remarkable.

Update: Nearing the end of the second 18, Bucs still looking good. 3 of the top 7 wear blue and gold. Kim now tied for the lead at even par. The team lead has been bouncing around from 7 to as much as 13, now standing at 9 over UNC-G.

And....not long after I posted the above update, they did finish the second 18 of the day (one group still out, I think). Kim is leading by 1 at even, over Wes Gosselin of Chatt. Two UNCG players are 1 more back, and then Hulbert one more. All 5 Bucs in the top 18, which is still truly remarkable.

Team-wise, we've struggled the last few holes, while the Spartans and Mocs are closing in. Up by 5 on the former; 6 on the latter. Gradecki doubled 16, and Ratliff bogeyed 16 and 18. *On the other hand*.....I do believe Geuntae Kim had a HOLE-IN-ONE on 17!

That's not a for-sure end-of-the-day tally, but likely very close.

Bucs finished yesterday up 6 on both Chatt and UNCG. Chatt came back 10 strokes on ETSU in the second go 'round yesterday.
Rainout today; tee 'em up tomorrow....

This got missed, but the Bucs won the team title by 8 strokes over UNCG, and Geuntae Kim won a playoff for the individual title while Trevor Hulbert was one shot back and Mateusz Gradecki also cracked the top 10.

Overall, a nice win for Fred Warren & Co. Third straight SoCon title. Congrats, guys!

(04-27-2017 07:07 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  This got missed, but the Bucs won the team title by 8 strokes over UNCG, and Geuntae Kim won a playoff for the individual title while Trevor Hulbert was one shot back and Mateusz Gradecki also cracked the top 10.

Overall, a nice win for Fred Warren & Co. Third straight SoCon title. Congrats, guys!

Excellence!

I didn't miss it, but a major disruption occurred in my life before I could return and update things. One of my very best friends in the whole world passed away from a sudden heart attack, and I'm in grieving. Tough one....
Thank you for filling in my gap. Needless to say.....ETSU sports just isn't as important right now.

Will try to fill in some details later on...

I guess I don't understand college golf. ETSU won all these awards and Warren got coach of the year. They finished in the top half of a tournament twice in 9 tournaments prior to the SoCon championship, the best finish was tied for 5th(out 15) in their own tournament. Those results don't sound all that great to me. I guess the rest of the Socon really, really sucks?

(04-28-2017 06:29 AM)RodShaw2 Wrote:  I guess I don't understand college golf. ETSU won all these awards and Warren got coach of the year. They finished in the top half of a tournament twice in 9 tournaments prior to the SoCon championship, the best finish was tied for 5th(out 15) in their own tournament. Those results don't sound all that great to me. I guess the rest of the Socon really, really sucks?

Yes and no. Some of it is the tournaments they played in, which featured a lot of high-major and power conference programs. Over ten tournaments (fall and spring), here are the non-FBS schools that finished ahead of ETSU:

Liberty (Twice)
Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Hartford
UNC Wilmington
Sam Houston State
North Florida (Twice)
Jacksonville
Lipscomb
College of Charleston

That's it. ETSU didn't face a ton of SoCon level competition before the conference tournament, so their finishing positions might look bad just by the nature of trying to punch above their weight, because individual performances and scoring averages show ETSU has been very good. Mateusz Gradecki had four top-ten finishes and the second-lowest scoring average among SoCon golfers. ETSU's top four players all had scoring averages of 74 or better, which would have been good enough for a top ten finish at the conference tournament, where ETSU placed three golfers in the top ten (and would've had all four if Ben Reichert hadn't blown up in round 3).

The short answer to your question is: SoCon golf is not other-worldly good, but ETSU played big-time competition most of the year and didn't embarrass itself, so winning the conference title isn't a shock or upset at all.

All true.
However, there is no question Fred hasn't been able to maintain the very high level to which we became semi-accustomed in the past. I don't remember the last time we were nationally ranked, but it's been quite a while, I think - certainly if one means near the end of the season.
And yes, we were spoiled; and yes, Rory McIlroy decided to turn pro instead of coming here, ultimately.

So it really depends on one's frame of reference. Does one want to compare to the SoCon, and similar non-FBS schools? Or compare to the top 20 programs ETSU used to regularly be amongst? We used to be nearly automatic to be in the national finals field - now not nearly so much, to be kind.

Last year we finished 7th in the region.
In 2015, 7th in the regional.
In 2014, 8th in the regional.
In 2013, we didn't win the ASun championship, and didn't even qualify for the regional.
Same story for 2012.
In 2011, we finished a dismal 5th in the ASun (but McIlroy won the U.S. Open).
In 2010, we missed the cut for the nationals by 1 stroke in the regionals.
In 2009, maybe(?) the last year we were ranked (31st) at the end of the year, we finished 11th in the regionals.
In 2008, at one point ETSU was ranked 16th, and achieved their 20th trip to the nationals, finishing 22nd. 3rd year in a row at the nationals.
In 2007, we were ranked in the top 15 most of the year, finished 18th at the nationals. (After 2 rounds we were in fourth place.)
In 2006, finished 21st in the nationals.

[Let's also recognize *many* individuals, too many to easily name, who went on to qualify the nationals when the team didn't, and have had some other international successes at things like the Palmer Cup and Rhyder Cup, etc.]

That's enough, I think. So after a few down years, we seem to be on a mini-upswing (pun not intended, really), but are nowhere near the prominence we used to have on a year-to-year basis. And we haven't been to the nationals since 2008. But since Fred is a big-name coach in the country (or used to be, at least), ETSU still can get invites to these prestigious tournaments, and get some good teams to come here to The Ridges, although maybe not as many of the top schools as used to.

So to use Mister Consistency's parlance.....ETSU is still trying to punch above their weight - BUT, used to do that quite successfully, and quite regularly, over a considerable stretch of time. And now it's more difficult. I think golf has gained prominence at some FBS schools over the last decade or so beyond what it used to be, as cash-flush places have built teams they didn't used to have. And with golf not being named a Tier One sport at ETSU, the chances of our golf program regularly being a national top-20 ones are slim, I'd guess.

Fred Warren is not computer savvy?

Fred plans his exit

"Warren admitted some new challenges with scouting and recruiting, as they have moved to digital platforms. He feels someone younger can come in and help the team on those platforms and eventually slide into his role."

That is a bit eerie, but maybe explains some things - including our recent difficulties noted in my above post. This is surprising in more than one way. First of all, and most noteworthy, is that it came out at all. Since when does ETSU "announce" they're going to go through a coaching transition? That's just a bit odd. And I'm not saying there's something fishy behind it, but it is odd. Will Tony Skole now have his own story out after this season? [Uh, no.] It also sounds a bit like he's angling for another(?) asst. coach. What does this mean for Heggarty? Why was Paduch there in that video? (Not that there's *necessarily* anything wrong with that.) So instead of learning computer-ese, which he should have done decades ago, he's sliding on out. I mean, that's ok, but it begs a few questions, no? Like, why didn't he adapt? With his strong track record, seems like he would have done what was necessary to keep pace. Was Sander partially behind this? [Doesn't actually sound like it.]

To be clear, this is not Fred bashing. I like Fred, actually. It just seems unusual.

I guess we all saw the announcement for the regional down in the 'boro:

Regional seeding

Yeah, that 12 seed is awfully low, but more or less deserved. The good news is that it seems we played rather well, respectively, in the SoCon tournament. And unlike tennis, or baseball, or hoops, it's you against the course: play well and you'll advance. I'd say it would have to be considered a nice accomplishment just to make the cut with that seeding, but obviously we'd like more than that. Top 5 from each region go on to the nationals.

Former Buccaneer, Seamus Power, is leading at Wells Fargo Championship after day 2. Pretty cool.

Bucs are 7 shots back of the cut line after round one, but Gradecki had a great day and is very much in the mix to advance. Trevor Hulbert and Kevin Burns both triple-bogeyed the par-5 7th, which Gradecki hit an eagle on. Take one of those triple-bogeys away and ETSU would have a whole lot less work to do.