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Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 09:48 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think it just matters on the state. Some like Nebraska are more focused on the college game than NFL, even middle class. Even people who never go to college have husker gear and wear it regularly. You get a red onesie with an N the first few weeks of your life. Income makes no difference.

Sure in a few states.

But raised a Cornhusker does that translate into attending Nebraska or life long T-Shirt fandom of Nebraska?

Kids go where they think will help them the most career wise or socially first. Some cases that ends up the P5 juggernaut sometimes it doesn't.

In Frank's lofty circles they've got the college rankings game down to a science and are in search of name as first priority.
02-15-2017 10:17 PM
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p23570
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Post: #102
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 10:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:48 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think it just matters on the state. Some like Nebraska are more focused on the college game than NFL, even middle class. Even people who never go to college have husker gear and wear it regularly. You get a red onesie with an N the first few weeks of your life. Income makes no difference.

Sure in a few states.

But raised a Cornhusker does that translate into attending Nebraska or life long T-Shirt fandom of Nebraska?

Kids go where they think will help them the most career wise or socially first. Some cases that ends up the P5 juggernaut sometimes it doesn't.

In Frank's lofty circles they've got the college rankings game down to a science and are in search of name as first priority.

Yes. A state with less than 2 million people has sold out every game since 1962. Good and bad. Up and down. Nebraska is full of T-shirt fans.
02-15-2017 10:20 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 10:20 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 10:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:48 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think it just matters on the state. Some like Nebraska are more focused on the college game than NFL, even middle class. Even people who never go to college have husker gear and wear it regularly. You get a red onesie with an N the first few weeks of your life. Income makes no difference.

Sure in a few states.

But raised a Cornhusker does that translate into attending Nebraska or life long T-Shirt fandom of Nebraska?

Kids go where they think will help them the most career wise or socially first. Some cases that ends up the P5 juggernaut sometimes it doesn't.

In Frank's lofty circles they've got the college rankings game down to a science and are in search of name as first priority.

Yes. A state with less than 2 million people has sold out every game since 1962. Good and bad. Up and down. Nebraska is full of T-shirt fans.

So you are saying that it creates T-Shirt fans much more so than prospective students.

I agree in that regard. People like to back a winner.
02-15-2017 10:27 PM
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p23570
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Post: #104
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 10:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 10:20 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 10:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:48 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think it just matters on the state. Some like Nebraska are more focused on the college game than NFL, even middle class. Even people who never go to college have husker gear and wear it regularly. You get a red onesie with an N the first few weeks of your life. Income makes no difference.

Sure in a few states.

But raised a Cornhusker does that translate into attending Nebraska or life long T-Shirt fandom of Nebraska?

Kids go where they think will help them the most career wise or socially first. Some cases that ends up the P5 juggernaut sometimes it doesn't.

In Frank's lofty circles they've got the college rankings game down to a science and are in search of name as first priority.

Yes. A state with less than 2 million people has sold out every game since 1962. Good and bad. Up and down. Nebraska is full of T-shirt fans.

So you are saying that it creates T-Shirt fans much more so than prospective students.

I agree in that regard. People like to back a winner.
Both.

KU BB attracts students from other states who only know about KU because of BB. I think they even have a deal in Canada.

Having a well publicised AD certainly helps the university beyond athletics but only in certain situations.
02-16-2017 12:27 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 10:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:48 PM)p23570 Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think it just matters on the state. Some like Nebraska are more focused on the college game than NFL, even middle class. Even people who never go to college have husker gear and wear it regularly. You get a red onesie with an N the first few weeks of your life. Income makes no difference.

Sure in a few states.

But raised a Cornhusker does that translate into attending Nebraska or life long T-Shirt fandom of Nebraska?

Kids go where they think will help them the most career wise or socially first. Some cases that ends up the P5 juggernaut sometimes it doesn't.

In Frank's lofty circles they've got the college rankings game down to a science and are in search of name as first priority.

LOL, I have no idea if Frank puts his pants on one leg at a time or if he's a "pinky up" kind of guy, but I would say that his example about Alabama making inroads into a Chicago HS is almost purely about price. He stated that out of state tuition minus the out of state scholarships Alabama is offering is cheaper than attending the U of Illinois as resident. Until Alabama kicked in the scholarship dollars, there were ZERO students from that Chicago HS considering Alabama let alone attending the school. What was the enticement then - the CFB in the SEC? Or was it the scholarship that made attending Alabama cheaper for these Chicago kids than trekking to Urbana Champaign to continue their studies?

Hell, if I was a kid growing up in PA today, I would go to Alabama if they offered me scholarship money to off set the out of state tuition if it made Alabama cheaper than Pitt or Penn State.

Just for kicks: out of state tuition at Alabama is roughly $27K/year. In state tuition at Illinois is $15.7K. That means these 30 students were getting - at a minimum - $11.3K/year for scholarships. Since Frank said it would be cheaper than in-state tuition at U of I, we're talking over $12K/year/student. Therefore, in Chicago $12K>Alabama Football
02-16-2017 08:08 AM
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miko33 Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 12:45 PM)miko33 Wrote:  Frank wrote:
Quote:To be sure, Alabama is giving out some of the best academic scholarships to out-of-state students out of any public school anywhere. I live in a Chicago suburb that is about as prestige-college-obsessed as any place in the country, and our local high school districts have gone from sending zero people to Alabama to around 20-30 kids per year. Once again, we're NOWHERE near the South. That's just our own suburb's school districts - we're not even talking about the rest of the Chicago area. Alabama has simply stepped up its out-of-state recruitment game big-time and you see where they're suddenly getting a critical mass of students from the NYC and Chicago areas and elsewhere.

Alabama did not get that pipeline because of Saban and his program. Once Alabama went above and beyond to subsidize out of state tuition to attract out of state students - they showed up. I won't discount that a number of kids make school decisions based on college football. Although I think you would have to be a moron to make that your primary metric for where you go to school, it's a factor. I won't dispute that. What I will strongly question is how valuable a strong sports program is to the schools themselves. You made the argument that sports could be one of the distinguishing features that tips the scales in favor of one school vs another as an add on to my point about a number of degrees being commodities. Maybe in some cases that is a factor. However, I am of the opinion that costs, benefits and proximity trump sports in almost every case. IMHO, very few people would elect to eschew a liberal arts degree from a solid local school in order to pay out of state tuition just so they can go to a P5 school for the "college mystique of Saturdays". Your examples showcase Alabama and Michigan. Does that hold up for Miss St? Wash St? Do people feel that same allure for Kansas St? I'm going to say no.

That circles us back to the very first post I made in this thread. Sports may ultimately be a great marketing tool for the top 25 prominent athletic schools out there. But it breaks down for the lower level P5 who cannot compete without heavy subsidies and debt. Their bang for their buck is much much more muted. And in your example above the mighty Alabama didn't attract those 20-30 Chicago kids because of Saban's great CFB program. They went to where the financial breaks were. It wouldn't surprise me if the out of state Alabama tuition for those Chicago kids was lower than the U of I.

Oh yes, that Bama tuition is generally lower than U of I. Mizzou, Iowa and Indiana have targeted the same types of students in the Chicago area with various scholarships, too.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Your argument is generally centered on that cost in and of itself is the driving factor behind college decisions. I think it's more nuanced than that - what you're willing to pay for Harvard is going to be different than what you're willing to pay for Michigan and what you're willing to pay for Alabama and what you're willing to pay for Mississippi State. There's a difference between being a good value and being cheap.

At the same time, and maybe it's just because of where I live, but I DON'T see just a strict fixation on cost in and of itself. It's definitely a very big factor, but it's also not THE factor, or else this entire discussion is pointless and every person would be going to community colleges for their first 2 years of school. Those upper middle class suburban kids that virtually every college (whether prestigious or not) falls all over themselves to recruit because they're the ones that largely pay DO want amenities. Maybe not all of them want great football or basketball teams, but they do want SOMETHING beyond just the material that they could learn at home via an online course for free.

For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Once again, you can point to "correlation instead of causation" and I wouldn't disagree with you, but you're trying to unwrap something that's pretty tightly intertwined between top tier public universities and P5 sports. I also think you're underestimating "school spirit" overall as a pretty potent "soft" factor for the affluent kids that have legitimate choices between different schools and it's a pretty high correlation between school spirit and P5 status. It's not rocket science: when a prospective student sees current students look happy to be at a school, then that's attractive. (And believe me - I've been to plenty of places where the current students clearly don't like being there. An 18-year old can tell right away.) Being out in the real world for many years at this point, I actually don't think "school spirit" is even a soft factor. I think it's pretty important. You'll learn from the same economics or chemistry textbooks whether you go to Harvard, Alabama or a community college, but the biggest differentiator between colleges is the connections that you make. If you're at an Ivy/Ivy-caliber school, then those connections might largely be academic or placement at prestigious firms or positions. Once you get past that level, though, then I do think the schools with better "school spirit" generally have much better alumni connections. That might not give a Kansas State or Mississippi State grad a leg up over a Michigan grad, but it could certainly give them a leg up over, say, a UAB grad.

There was a lot in your post. I highlighted what I thought were the key parts and I'll comment on those.

You oversimplified my position. What I stated was students will weigh cost, quality and scope of choices for majors more heavily than the athletics ("atmosphere"?). So we see all of these students willing to go out of state vs attending the "non-P5" local state schools. I see what you did there, and I would state that it is much more accurate if you change "non-P5" with "less resourced". You imply that it's big time college sports - or more accurately are hedging your bets that it "could be" big time college sports. The simpler answer is that with less state funding, the states will circle their wagons and will ensure the strongest state schools are funded to the detriment of the "secondary" state schools. I think that is what you are actually seeing. We are seeing it in all 50 states, and the schools that are suffering the most are the smaller state schools, the smaller private schools and the demographically centered schools (black colleges among others). This is not a college sports phenomenon. It's a funding problem.

Regarding your comment about community college to full serve university track, we're already seeing that track becoming more and more popular. According to the article below, the 2013/2014 school year showed 46% of graduates from 4 year degree granting institutions have had some stints in community colleges.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015...ar-college

This brings us back to the idea of networking. Your claim is that at the public P5s, there are better networking opportunities out there. To a certain extent, you may be correct. I think it's much more of a mixed bag in reality, because your best real networking will come about through the jobs you do work and even going through a cooperative work program in the college itself. U of Cincinnati is not a P5 school. However, I'll bet that most students at UC will say that they have been able to develop great networking opportunities. You see, they have an EXTENSIVE work/study program. They have access to various professional organizations they can join as students. Those are the places where you will build your contacts. Back when Pitt was in the Big East while Penn State was in the Big Ten, Pitt matched PSU every step of the way as both schools grew as research powerhouses and in academic prestige. Before you imply that Pitt was in a BCS conference back then...LOL spare me. The Big East sucked. Hell the other BCS conferences and even high school students laughed at the "Big Least" for even being in the same conversation as the SEC, Big Ten, etc. The IVY LEAGUE is a distinct and isolated situation when it comes to contacts, and those schools are the only places I know where you can truly build a superior network of contacts.

The point is that most of these students looking at colleges today are not dumb. They know to research the schools they are interested in. They will have people telling them what is going on in higher ed today and which schools the states are giving the support to vs which schools are being allowed to whither on the vine as a result of dwindling state revenues. And when you talk about atmosphere, I will tell you that a city campus of a non-P5 school will have tremendous atmosphere IF...you are attracted to a large city. So even your atmosphere comment is oversimplified when you automatically assume that great atmosphere is primarily built upon P5 sports... WAY more factors go into it than just that.
02-16-2017 08:49 AM
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Schadenfreude Offline
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RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
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02-17-2017 11:33 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
(02-15-2017 09:26 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(02-15-2017 02:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For the bolded, the fact is (at least in the Chicago area) is that a very large number of people DO eschew degrees from solid local schools for out-of-state P5 schools. It's not just a token amount, either - it's enough to have the state of Illinois be the #1 net exporter of college students in the entire country! Our local school districts will absolutely send more kids to Wisconsin, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa and Missouri than they will to Illinois State and the non-flagship in-state universities this year. We see the same thing with New Jersey and California students. Forget about the University of Michigan - look at the number of out-of-state kids from Illinois and New Jersey at places like Indiana or the number of California kids that are inundating Oregon, Colorado, Arizona and Arizona State instead of going to their non-flagship in-state public universities (or even eschewing their in-state flagship options). Maybe it's not their football programs specifically, but there IS something about being a "major brand name" school that can attract students in a way that others can't.

Frank what your describing is the way the kids from high income families see things. You for example were someone from a higher socioeconomic background with your father a professor. Names and prestige is everything in higher socioeconomic circles.

I once worked with a project manager who said that he went to Utah State. He then said proudly that Utah State has one of the most conservative political science departments in the country. His decision was based on perceived political environment than anything else.

Middle class kids who are not part of the well to do establishment view schools differently.

Conservative campus
Liberal campus
School with the biggest parties
Climate
Highest female to male ratio
Scenery
High school friends
Girlfriends
Too far from home
Too close to home
Offers my major
Perceived strength of the major

I just don't think athletics are too high on the list for the middle class kid who's parents watch the Super Bowl and World Series and that's it. Unless they grew up in a P5 college town so they understood what it means to have that.

I think a lot of people in this thread are taking a narrow view of who is "high income", though. I'm NOT talking about the one-percenters at the tip-top of the income scale. It's easy to dismiss that group as not caring about tuition prices and being outliers that can "afford" to be frivolous.

Instead, I'm talking about, say, the top 25% of income households. They might be "only" 25% of the US population overall, but they're making up the plurality or even a majority of the households that live in large swaths of suburbs in large metro areas, and they further make up an even larger proportion of those that attend college overall. They're the "mass affluent", if you will (or who most would characterize as "upper middle class"). This is a very large group (if not the single largest group) of college "consumers" and they DO have the ability to shape the higher education market overall. This group cares about price (as they can't just pull $60,000 in tuition per year out of thin air), but they do care about prestige, as well, and they'll balance the two heavily. I think people here are underestimating how large this group is when looking at them as a proportion of the college population overall. This isn't anecdotal - people in suburban NYC, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Dallas and other major metro areas pay out-of-state tuition for other schools at VERY high rates and these aren't the richest of the rich kids.

Once again, I'm not saying that sports is #1 on their list for a school. It's one factor of many. However, whether a school does have big-time sports or not certainly does have a material impact on the overall culture and atmosphere of a school and the group that I described certainly cares about that aspect.

It's no different than why cities want pro sports teams. Even though not everyone in a city might care about pro sports, the point is that's an indicator that you're in a "brand name city" when it has pro sports teams. (And once again, you can have the argument that it's wasteful to subsidize pro sports teams, and you might be right. However, mayors typically get rewarded when they attract new pro sports teams and they typically get punished when they lose them. Similarly, look at the heat applied to administrators at even low revenue schools like Idaho and UAB when they dared to drop football levels or even football entirely. People don't get fired for adding a football team, whether it's college or pro, but they certainly can get fired for losing one.)

This could apply to things outside of sports, too. For instance, I only go to the Lyric Opera of Chicago maybe once every year or two and it wouldn't be on my top 10 personal reasons why I like living in the Chicago area, but the mere fact that the Lyric Opera is here adds to the overall cultural landscape that makes the entire city attractive. Chicago would certainly survive without the opera, but it's one less differentiator in its total package of a cultural experience. Not every person can visit every museum, attraction, theater or sports team all of the time in their respective home cities, but that doesn't mean that any of those people would actually believe that their cities would be better off *without* them.

Once again, we can go back to the "correlation vs. causation" discussion and say that it's all just correlation... and I wouldn't disagree. However, big-time sports at a school does add to the TOTALITY of the experience at a college that is definitely different when it's not there. I can see it with the difference between Northwestern and University of Chicago grads that I work with every day. They basically go after the same types of students with the same types of grades and they're elite institutions that are only a few miles away from each other. Northwestern is hardly Michigan or Alabama in terms of a great sports campus, but you better believe that there's a huge difference in the school pride that Northwestern grads show compared to U of C grads and that translates into how much enthusiastically Northwestern alums help out their fellow alums compared to U of C alums. I think most Northwestern alums would say that being a Big Ten school was a net positive to their experience even if they weren't big sports fans (similar to Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc.). It's a major differentiator for Northwestern in competing for top students against a place like U of C, Washington University in St. Louis and Ivy League schools.
02-17-2017 04:05 PM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
What was this thread about again?
02-17-2017 04:09 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Group of Five Playoff Idea not going away
The only sports that I would agree can even have a noticeable impact -- temporarily -- on the atmosphere on campus are football (mainly) and men's bball (at a few schools).

Some kids will specifically choose a school for that effect, and desire to be apart of it. But most won't. Even more kids, I'd wager, care more about the academic reputation of a school than if it even has athletics at all.


Right in your own backyard is exhibit primaro uno: U of Chicago. A school that I dare say actually can be labeled as having high "academics" ... and incredibly rigorous undergraduate program.

It has basically no athletic atmosphere to speak of, and could just as well not have athletics at all. But via tradition (and probably some donors), it does maintain a DIII athletic dept.



Not sure if I agree with your last paragraph. Why are Northwestern alumni more eager to help fellow alums than U of C alumni?? That doesn't make sense.

I might believe that NW alumni rated being a Big Ten school favorable ... but more likely because that helped them land a job, than it increased their satisfaction with the college experience.
(This post was last modified: 02-17-2017 04:18 PM by MplsBison.)
02-17-2017 04:14 PM
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