The unofficial online home for fans of the Western Michigan University Broncos. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(01-08-2017 12:12 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  You need to let it go. PJ Fleck is a great Head Coach, but now he's someone else's great head coach. Some things to consider:

PJ promised to make us an elite program-he's put us on a trajectory to accomplish much of that.

PJ promised to recruit top recruits-for 4 years he had us best in MAC and way up on the class talent scales.

He promised to market the program to the local community and students, he was great at that.

He promised to bring excitement back to WMU football. He accomplished that.

We have the TOP GPA in MAC football, along with being the top program on the field.

We have improved facilities, largely due to his marketing of the program to donors.

Without PJ Fleck's tenure are we currently the draw for top coaches like Houston, Miles and others? Hardly.

When was the last time our program appeared on ESPN Gameday prior to Fleck? Oh, that's right-NEVER.

I'm not happy about recruits that verballed us are now following PJ to Minn, but that's Div 1A college football. Hopefully we'll gain a few top recruits that way with the new Staff.

So-it's time to quit whining that Fleck took the ziggy and moved up to a Big 10 school. He moved the bar WAY up for WMU football while he was here. It's time for US to take the next step and bring in somebody who will continue that development. This is the big time in college athletics folks, if you can't abide coaches moving up and on from WMU you may as well go back to the old days where we settled for 8-4 records and an invite to some lesser bowl game on December 20th. Building and being a top athletic program is a dynamic process, not a static process-continual change is inevitable. Get used to it.

Yep... spot on! Reality dictates this was inevitable. Good for Fleck moving on up... Those recruits that follow have every right to do so. We don't want to have to shoehorn anyone into our program. We are too good for that now. Fleck leaned heavily on existing players in recruiting process... that will pay dividends, keeping the right 2017 recruits in-house as our proud players reach out and close the deal. The team is solid, a strong foundation to continue to build on. Most of the D reruns and have dynamic options for lost position O players. Now we need to look to the future and find the right HC to grab the reigns of this VERY healthy bronco program. Buck away, Broncos, buck away!

(01-08-2017 12:34 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Two different viewpoints, each expressed well.

While I'm disappointed that he left, we all understood that success brings offers from places that can offer more and we knew that he would leave at some point. Some of us thought that we had dodged that particular bullet this year. Not so and it is the timing that stings so much. In the past, we would watch this from afar at other schools. We hadn't experienced having a successful coach being hired out from under us. I agree with Kathy B that it is a good problem to have because it does reflect the success on the field. It hurts, it kind of sucks but that is the way college football is structured.

Even the poaching of recruits is common. We just haven't seen or experienced this in our own backyard. Just reading the tweets of our commits in this class tells me that not all kids are the same, but for many if not most, PJ's personality, energy, commitment and vision were the deciding factors - they wanted to play for that man. Those kids did not commit so much to a school but to the coach. A few others have stated that they are still committed to WMU.

I wish PJ the best and thank him for what he did while at Western Michigan. He made a lot of promises when hired, many of which sounded like pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Yet many of them he was able to deliver on, in a way that shocked Bronco Nation out of its' slumber. Yes, it IS possible to become a national brand and name which people recognize.

We all hope that KB and the search group can find the right person for our program to continue on its' upward trajectory. We can't fail to maintain the momentum and fall back into mediocrity. This hire is critical and everybody knows it.

Easier to say than to do. Onward, Bronco Nation!!

(01-08-2017 01:08 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Pj did this, PJ did that...we should just be thankful...blah...blah...blah. He turned out to be self serving snake. He did good (maybe great) things but he was paid handsomely (or should i say 'elitely'). Double what most MAC coaches make. Our expectations should be 'elite'. He didn't do anything for free. And actively poaching our recruits tarnishes what he did here. We will feel it in a year or two. Top FCS recruits following whoever we hire won't fill the gap.

A snake? YOUCH! He's a man that worked tirelessly to build a nationally recognized football program from near oblivion. He instilled community pride and created an excitement in the student body rarely (if ever) seen. His salary directly from university coffers was middling versus other MAC HC, with outside donors adding to the kitty. All told, still, his overall salary qualifies him as only the 90th paid HC in the nation. CBS just put final ranking out... WMU is at #10. So, as return on investment, I think we got a fantastic ROI.

Although he preaches doing-the-right-thing, and he obtained recruits on WMU's dime -- whether he crossed the line or not, IMO, is based on what transpired with each individual (which we may never know).

Basically, our new coach, if he does some recruiting of his own or bringing in some staff who does so, very possibly could bring in a recruit or two -- it's what happens. The players are sucked in by the staff. And if said coach is going to a bigger or better place, it'd be kind of weird to expect None of them to follow said staff before even Going to the original University in the first place. So to some degree -- we Should Expect This As Kosher.

Now, if PJ took some players who already were at WMU -- that'd be a slap in the face. Or had to twist a recruit's arm that WMU would be short-changing himself with it being in disarray, and Minnesota was the only place he could fulfill his dreams, etc -- yeah, that would be a low blow, too. But besides that, again, I would expect some to go his way... and a new coaching staff who's been doing recruiting would bring in a guy or two. Many follow the staff before going to the University.

(01-08-2017 01:08 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Pj did this, PJ did that...we should just be thankful...blah...blah...blah. He turned out to be self serving snake. He did good (maybe great) things but he was paid handsomely (or should i say 'elitely'). Double what most MAC coaches make. Our expectations should be 'elite'. He didn't do anything for free. And actively poaching our recruits tarnishes what he did here. We will feel it in a year or two. Top FCS recruits following whoever we hire won't fill the gap.

We as WMU fans need to get off this kick of disparaging PJ Fleck. Most of our current players still love him, we're not helping the program morale and transition with this continual whining.

It's time to be an ELITE fanbase. Change is inevitable in top programs, get used to it and adapt to it. Let's end the attacks on Fleck and concentrate on bringing in a HC the players and fans can embrace and support. At the end of the day it's the Program and not just the staff.

(01-08-2017 01:11 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  My prediction-you can take it for what it's worth-is that IF we hire another good HC nobody will remember in a year or two the recruits that verballed to us but followed PJ to Minnesota. And I think that the impact will be far less than many folks think.

Mike Houston looked awful good to me yesterday.

(01-08-2017 02:16 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  We as WMU fans need to get off this kick of disparaging PJ Fleck. Most of our current players still love him, we're not helping the program morale and transition with this continual whining.

It's time to be an ELITE fanbase. Change is inevitable in top programs, get used to it and adapt to it. Let's end the attacks on Fleck and concentrate on bringing in a HC the players and fans can embrace and support. At the end of the day it's the Program and not just the staff.

Right on. It's time. The Bronco Program is stronger then ever... with the right HC hire, that trajectory continues. The future remains bright. Let's quit the bickering and name-calling.

Jarvion tweeted out a picture of a snake on Friday. I'm not only one who thinks this.

(01-08-2017 01:54 PM)BroncoBuck Wrote:  

(01-08-2017 12:34 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Two different viewpoints, each expressed well.

While I'm disappointed that he left, we all understood that success brings offers from places that can offer more and we knew that he would leave at some point. Some of us thought that we had dodged that particular bullet this year. Not so and it is the timing that stings so much. In the past, we would watch this from afar at other schools. We hadn't experienced having a successful coach being hired out from under us. I agree with Kathy B that it is a good problem to have because it does reflect the success on the field. It hurts, it kind of sucks but that is the way college football is structured.

Even the poaching of recruits is common. We just haven't seen or experienced this in our own backyard. Just reading the tweets of our commits in this class tells me that not all kids are the same, but for many if not most, PJ's personality, energy, commitment and vision were the deciding factors - they wanted to play for that man. Those kids did not commit so much to a school but to the coach. A few others have stated that they are still committed to WMU.

I wish PJ the best and thank him for what he did while at Western Michigan. He made a lot of promises when hired, many of which sounded like pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Yet many of them he was able to deliver on, in a way that shocked Bronco Nation out of its' slumber. Yes, it IS possible to become a national brand and name which people recognize.

We all hope that KB and the search group can find the right person for our program to continue on its' upward trajectory. We can't fail to maintain the momentum and fall back into mediocrity. This hire is critical and everybody knows it.

Easier to say than to do. Onward, Bronco Nation!!

(01-08-2017 01:08 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Pj did this, PJ did that...we should just be thankful...blah...blah...blah. He turned out to be self serving snake. He did good (maybe great) things but he was paid handsomely (or should i say 'elitely'). Double what most MAC coaches make. Our expectations should be 'elite'. He didn't do anything for free. And actively poaching our recruits tarnishes what he did here. We will feel it in a year or two. Top FCS recruits following whoever we hire won't fill the gap.

A snake? YOUCH! He's a man that worked tirelessly to build a nationally recognized football program from near oblivion. He instilled community pride and created an excitement in the student body rarely (if ever) seen. His salary directly from university coffers was middling versus other MAC HC, with outside donors adding to the kitty. All told, still, his overall salary qualifies him as only the 90th paid HC in the nation. CBS just put final ranking out... WMU is at #10. So, as return on investment, I think we got a fantastic ROI.

(01-08-2017 02:16 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  We as WMU fans need to get off this kick of disparaging PJ Fleck. Most of our current players still love him, we're not helping the program morale and transition with this continual whining.

It's time to be an ELITE fanbase. Change is inevitable in top programs, get used to it and adapt to it. Let's end the attacks on Fleck and concentrate on bringing in a HC the players and fans can embrace and support. At the end of the day it's the Program and not just the staff.

(01-08-2017 02:35 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Jarvion tweeted out a picture of a snake on Friday. I'm not only one who thinks this.

(01-08-2017 01:54 PM)BroncoBuck Wrote:  

(01-08-2017 12:34 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Two different viewpoints, each expressed well.

While I'm disappointed that he left, we all understood that success brings offers from places that can offer more and we knew that he would leave at some point. Some of us thought that we had dodged that particular bullet this year. Not so and it is the timing that stings so much. In the past, we would watch this from afar at other schools. We hadn't experienced having a successful coach being hired out from under us. I agree with Kathy B that it is a good problem to have because it does reflect the success on the field. It hurts, it kind of sucks but that is the way college football is structured.

Even the poaching of recruits is common. We just haven't seen or experienced this in our own backyard. Just reading the tweets of our commits in this class tells me that not all kids are the same, but for many if not most, PJ's personality, energy, commitment and vision were the deciding factors - they wanted to play for that man. Those kids did not commit so much to a school but to the coach. A few others have stated that they are still committed to WMU.

I wish PJ the best and thank him for what he did while at Western Michigan. He made a lot of promises when hired, many of which sounded like pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Yet many of them he was able to deliver on, in a way that shocked Bronco Nation out of its' slumber. Yes, it IS possible to become a national brand and name which people recognize.

We all hope that KB and the search group can find the right person for our program to continue on its' upward trajectory. We can't fail to maintain the momentum and fall back into mediocrity. This hire is critical and everybody knows it.

Easier to say than to do. Onward, Bronco Nation!!

(01-08-2017 01:08 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Pj did this, PJ did that...we should just be thankful...blah...blah...blah. He turned out to be self serving snake. He did good (maybe great) things but he was paid handsomely (or should i say 'elitely'). Double what most MAC coaches make. Our expectations should be 'elite'. He didn't do anything for free. And actively poaching our recruits tarnishes what he did here. We will feel it in a year or two. Top FCS recruits following whoever we hire won't fill the gap.

A snake? YOUCH! He's a man that worked tirelessly to build a nationally recognized football program from near oblivion. He instilled community pride and created an excitement in the student body rarely (if ever) seen. His salary directly from university coffers was middling versus other MAC HC, with outside donors adding to the kitty. All told, still, his overall salary qualifies him as only the 90th paid HC in the nation. CBS just put final ranking out... WMU is at #10. So, as return on investment, I think we got a fantastic ROI.

So using pure conjuncture/speculation on meaning from an emoji tweet from a 20 year old student athlete (and a prime example of the potency of Fleck's hard work and dedication) equates to justifying calling PJ Fleck a snake? Let's be grateful for what he built here and move forward together, excited how bright our future will be.

BroncoPhilly is nailing it. We are in the midst of what happens at successful mid-major programs. It hurts, but that's just a symptom of success.

As much as I would have liked to see Fleck pull a Petersen, that circumstance is the exception, not the rule.

If any of you former Fleck Fanatics believed this was going to end any way other than it did -

That's on you.

Im ok w him leaving. But he doesn't have to burn it down on his way out.

(01-08-2017 04:52 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  If any of you former Fleck Fanatics believed this was going to end any way other than it did -

That's on you.

(01-08-2017 05:26 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Im ok w him leaving. But he doesn't have to burn it down on his way out.

(01-08-2017 04:52 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  If any of you former Fleck Fanatics believed this was going to end any way other than it did -

That's on you.

Then you didn't get him from the get go ("All for Me, and Me for Me!"), or understand the way of the Big Time CFB world.

(01-08-2017 02:35 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Jarvion tweeted out a picture of a snake on Friday. I'm not only one who thinks this.

(01-08-2017 01:54 PM)BroncoBuck Wrote:  

(01-08-2017 12:34 PM)MileHighBronco Wrote:  Two different viewpoints, each expressed well.

While I'm disappointed that he left, we all understood that success brings offers from places that can offer more and we knew that he would leave at some point. Some of us thought that we had dodged that particular bullet this year. Not so and it is the timing that stings so much. In the past, we would watch this from afar at other schools. We hadn't experienced having a successful coach being hired out from under us. I agree with Kathy B that it is a good problem to have because it does reflect the success on the field. It hurts, it kind of sucks but that is the way college football is structured.

Even the poaching of recruits is common. We just haven't seen or experienced this in our own backyard. Just reading the tweets of our commits in this class tells me that not all kids are the same, but for many if not most, PJ's personality, energy, commitment and vision were the deciding factors - they wanted to play for that man. Those kids did not commit so much to a school but to the coach. A few others have stated that they are still committed to WMU.

I wish PJ the best and thank him for what he did while at Western Michigan. He made a lot of promises when hired, many of which sounded like pie-in-the-sky dreaming. Yet many of them he was able to deliver on, in a way that shocked Bronco Nation out of its' slumber. Yes, it IS possible to become a national brand and name which people recognize.

We all hope that KB and the search group can find the right person for our program to continue on its' upward trajectory. We can't fail to maintain the momentum and fall back into mediocrity. This hire is critical and everybody knows it.

Easier to say than to do. Onward, Bronco Nation!!

(01-08-2017 01:08 PM)bronco1988 Wrote:  Pj did this, PJ did that...we should just be thankful...blah...blah...blah. He turned out to be self serving snake. He did good (maybe great) things but he was paid handsomely (or should i say 'elitely'). Double what most MAC coaches make. Our expectations should be 'elite'. He didn't do anything for free. And actively poaching our recruits tarnishes what he did here. We will feel it in a year or two. Top FCS recruits following whoever we hire won't fill the gap.

A snake? YOUCH! He's a man that worked tirelessly to build a nationally recognized football program from near oblivion. He instilled community pride and created an excitement in the student body rarely (if ever) seen. His salary directly from university coffers was middling versus other MAC HC, with outside donors adding to the kitty. All told, still, his overall salary qualifies him as only the 90th paid HC in the nation. CBS just put final ranking out... WMU is at #10. So, as return on investment, I think we got a fantastic ROI.

Jarvion has tweeted out his support of PJ since then-- if that's even what the emoji meant he doesn't seem to think that way on further review.

Fleck is an egomaniac there is 0 way he was going to leave the right way.

We loved him when he was here but I was under no illusion with who fleck is. Still happy with what he did here.

Next hire needs to be great no use crying over fleck leaving, he was always going to and now that we are on the other side of him getting his players somewhere we shouldn't have a problem with it. It is what it is, he doesn't care about our team anymore and his not getting paid to.

(01-08-2017 08:40 AM)BCBronco Wrote:  Hi PJ,

Congratulations on your new gig. While many Bronco fans are disappointed by your decision to leave, most understand that is the American way to strive, to achieve, to go after your goals and dreams, and to earn as much money as you can while you can.

On the other hand, it appears to me that you have lost your way. I am specifically referring to your poaching of Western recruits. I am at a loss to understand how you can preach Family, hard work, row the boat, ethics, honesty, integrity, loyalty, and tell all those many little cute stories and metaphors that you constantly pontificate, then at your first opportunity, steal the recruits of a wounded university, that you wounded, that gave you your big break, that you claim to love.

If you were really elite, as you claim to be, you would've put on your big boy pants and gone after commits from Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin and Penn State. Instead of putting on your big boy pants, you put on your diapers and poached commits of the school that give you every break in the world, and that you turned around and blindsided. How is that elite?

Some might say, well it's common practice to poach recruits at the last minute. Maybe so, maybe not. But imagine the example of eliteness and integrity that you could have established had you refused to go after Western's commits and encouraged them to honor their commitment. Then, all the sloganeering, sad deep personal stories, and pontificating might have meant something, now it just comes across as shallow, self-serving, vacuous word salad manipulation.

In the end, when one looks in the mirror in the morning, one hopes to see a person of ethics, honesty, integrity, substance, consistency, positive values and virtues. If one doesn't see that, than then no matter how many football games they win, they are not elite, no matter what they tell themselves or tell others.

In the end, I wish you good luck. Not on the field, but on your journey to close the gap between what you preach and what you do.

Again, no one is angry because you left, rather people are angry because you sneakily poached your former employer's commits, the employer who took a chance on an unknown, unaccomplished coach and provided him with unprecedented resources in a time of tight budgets, and paid him an excessive salary.

In the end, if you are indeed rowing the boat at this point, you are only rowing it in circles in a shallow pond.

Gads!

Like it or not, kids commit to coaches, not to the University. Granted, it should not be that way, but welcome to Reality 101.

Coaches have left Ball State, Bowling Green, Miami, CMU, Toledo, NIU and others, and had the EXACT same thing happen.

This is D-I college football. It ain't always pretty, and certainly not ethical.

Suck-it-up and get ready to support Fleck's successor. Until the NCAA changes rules (which it should), you can't blame the kids for wanting to follow the coach and you can't blame to coach for wanting kids he already has a relationship with.

I don't like it anymore than you do, but I don't like ice storms, either, and they are also reality.

(01-08-2017 12:12 PM)BroncoPhilly Wrote:  You need to let it go. PJ Fleck is a great Head Coach, but now he's someone else's great head coach. Some things to consider:

PJ promised to make us an elite program-he's put us on a trajectory to accomplish much of that.

PJ promised to recruit top recruits-for 4 years he had us best in MAC and way up on the class talent scales.

He promised to market the program to the local community and students, he was great at that.

He promised to bring excitement back to WMU football. He accomplished that.

We have the TOP GPA in MAC football, along with being the top program on the field.

We have improved facilities, largely due to his marketing of the program to donors.

Without PJ Fleck's tenure are we currently the draw for top coaches like Houston, Miles and others? Hardly.

When was the last time our program appeared on ESPN Gameday prior to Fleck? Oh, that's right-NEVER.

I'm not happy about recruits that verballed us are now following PJ to Minn, but that's Div 1A college football. Hopefully we'll gain a few top recruits that way with the new Staff.

So-it's time to quit whining that Fleck took the ziggy and moved up to a Big 10 school. He moved the bar WAY up for WMU football while he was here. It's time for US to take the next step and bring in somebody who will continue that development. This is the big time in college athletics folks, if you can't abide coaches moving up and on from WMU you may as well go back to the old days where we settled for 8-4 records and an invite to some lesser bowl game on December 20th. Building and being a top athletic program is a dynamic process, not a static process-continual change is inevitable. Get used to it.

Yep exactly what he said X 2 some people don't just get it.

No one is whining that he left, or not appreciative of a great season. The whole point of my essay was to note the gap between his stated values and his poaching of our commits. It's really pretty simple, just got to read.

If things were different and PJ was coming to us from a program where he could bring recruits that he had recruited for the last job, would we want him to do that? Of course we would. Stop the whining stop the backbiting he has took us to a different level. Kathy B search will be so much easier now because people want to come to the zoo because of what he had and has created . Next chapter please

We've learned this the hard way at Bowling Green over the last half decade. Kids don't commit to a University, they commit to a coach. He didn't poach any recruits from WMU. He took HIS recruits with him to Minnesota. Not trying to be rude, but Western Michigan didn't win the MAC because the University or Kalamazoo or the program is somehow better than the rest of the MAC. You won because you had one man leading the charge who was better than the rest in the MAC. Just like Bowling Green didn't win two of the past three titles because the University was better than the rest of the MAC. Or NIU before them. Or CMU before them. Or on and on and on. In the MAC, it ALWAYS comes down to the coach. And when you win, the coach moves on. You hope to replace one dynamic coach with another. And another. And another.

At some point, you swing and miss on a coaching hire. Like CMU did. Or NIU did. Or BG did. It's the nature of life in the MAC. And someone else steps up and takes your place.

In some ways, I admire WMU for doing all they could to keep PJ. Because it seems the administration understands that it always comes down to the coach. But, on the other hand, they wasted a whole lot of money (whether it be donors or whoever) paying PJ double what anyone else in the MAC was making. Because they will always be paid more somewhere else if they are successful in the MAC.

(01-08-2017 07:01 PM)Dci007 Wrote:  If things were different and PJ was coming to us from a program where he could bring recruits that he had recruited for the last job, would we want him to do that? Of course we would. Stop the whining stop the backbiting he has took us to a different level. Kathy B search will be so much easier now because people want to come to the zoo because of what he had and has created . Next chapter please

Do you see any whining, or any backbiting in my post? There is none. Just because poaching is common does not make it right. Spousal abuse and child abuse is more common than you think, but it does not make it OK. Three children die per day at the hands of their parents. commonality is not justification