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Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
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BullsFanInTX Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 08:31 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/the-on...38736.html

Forward thinking. If Big 12 gets auto-bid to 8-team playoff, it could be more advantageous for UT/OU to stick around.

He hates bowl. With a passion. Wrote "Death to the BCS."

The only hold-up I see in his plan is teams and fans like free trips during the December holidays. A first-round playoff game on home campuses...seems to eliminate that (or at least take that money/power out of the conferences hands).

I'm a large proponent of an 8-team playoff, although I still believe the way to do it is through the bowls (both my personal desires AND what I think could be most realistically sold to the commissioners and university presidents in the near future). In fact, it would be a hybrid of moving forward to a larger playoff while also throwing back to tradition.

(1) Quarterfinals are simple:

Rose: Big Ten vs. Pac-12
Sugar: SEC vs. at-large
Fiesta (or Cotton): Big 12 vs. at-large
Orange (or Peach): ACC vs. at-large

(2) One of the at-large spots goes to the highest ranked G5 school.

(3) Play those quarterfinal bowls on or around New Year's Day just as now.

(4) Play the *semifinals* 1 week to 10 days later at the home stadiums of the highest two remaining seeds.

(5) Play the championship game at a neutral site one week prior to the Super Bowl (which is an open weekend on the sports calendar).

This (a) keeps and arguably even enhances the traditions of the bowls, (b) lets the playoff participants to continue to receive a trip to a nice warm weather destination as a reward for their superior season (as opposed to a trip to Columbus), © makes the regular season seedings matter even in an extended playoff by granting the highest ranked semifinalists home field advantage and (d) the week before the Super Bowl is simply a great spot on the sports calendar to play the national championship game.

I'm not the first person to think of using the *semifinals* as where home fields come into play, but I believe it's an ingenious suggestion. Most 8-team playoff proposals (like Wetzel's attached) start with quarterfinals at schools' home fields, which would completely gut the bowl system. (I know Wetzel actually thinks of blowing up the bowl system as a feature instead of a bug, but the reality is that the bowls are the contractual mechanism through which the power conferences maintain their power status, so they aren't going away.) Keeping the quarterfinals within the bowls preserves that system and gives all 8 playoff participants a trip to a nice destination. The semifinals being at the home field is a counter to the travel fatigue for fans while also providing a very large incentive for teams to be as highly-ranked as possible.

Now, there are certainly practical considerations (e.g. schools with cold winters can't as easily get a stadium up and running on short notice in January), but I think this a semi-plausible way that an 8-team playoff could be sold to the commissioners and presidents.

And what happens, if, for example, the Big 12 champ is ranked #20 in the final CFP poll, while the SEC has 4 teams in the top 10. Then what.

No, the best thing to do is simply carry over what they are doing now. Instead of the best 4 teams advancing to playoffs, the best 6 or 8 teams advance to playoffs. I am a firm believer in the BEST teams advancing, regardless of playoffs, rather than simply advancing someone, who although may have won conference, had a somewhat mediocre year finishing 10-3, 9-4, etc.
10-19-2016 11:56 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 08:31 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/the-on...38736.html

Forward thinking. If Big 12 gets auto-bid to 8-team playoff, it could be more advantageous for UT/OU to stick around.

He hates bowl. With a passion. Wrote "Death to the BCS."

The only hold-up I see in his plan is teams and fans like free trips during the December holidays. A first-round playoff game on home campuses...seems to eliminate that (or at least take that money/power out of the conferences hands).

I'm a large proponent of an 8-team playoff, although I still believe the way to do it is through the bowls (both my personal desires AND what I think could be most realistically sold to the commissioners and university presidents in the near future). In fact, it would be a hybrid of moving forward to a larger playoff while also throwing back to tradition.

(1) Quarterfinals are simple:

Rose: Big Ten vs. Pac-12
Sugar: SEC vs. at-large
Fiesta (or Cotton): Big 12 vs. at-large
Orange (or Peach): ACC vs. at-large

(2) One of the at-large spots goes to the highest ranked G5 school.

(3) Play those quarterfinal bowls on or around New Year's Day just as now.

(4) Play the *semifinals* 1 week to 10 days later at the home stadiums of the highest two remaining seeds.

(5) Play the championship game at a neutral site one week prior to the Super Bowl (which is an open weekend on the sports calendar).

This (a) keeps and arguably even enhances the traditions of the bowls, (b) lets the playoff participants to continue to receive a trip to a nice warm weather destination as a reward for their superior season (as opposed to a trip to Columbus), © makes the regular season seedings matter even in an extended playoff by granting the highest ranked semifinalists home field advantage and (d) the week before the Super Bowl is simply a great spot on the sports calendar to play the national championship game.

I'm not the first person to think of using the *semifinals* as where home fields come into play, but I believe it's an ingenious suggestion. Most 8-team playoff proposals (like Wetzel's attached) start with quarterfinals at schools' home fields, which would completely gut the bowl system. (I know Wetzel actually thinks of blowing up the bowl system as a feature instead of a bug, but the reality is that the bowls are the contractual mechanism through which the power conferences maintain their power status, so they aren't going away.) Keeping the quarterfinals within the bowls preserves that system and gives all 8 playoff participants a trip to a nice destination. The semifinals being at the home field is a counter to the travel fatigue for fans while also providing a very large incentive for teams to be as highly-ranked as possible.

Now, there are certainly practical considerations (e.g. schools with cold winters can't as easily get a stadium up and running on short notice in January), but I think this a semi-plausible way that an 8-team playoff could be sold to the commissioners and presidents.


I am against using the bowls for the college football playoff!! The bowls were never intended to be a part of a playoff to begin with, and being in the CFP to begin with decreases the value of the bowl and turns it into something that it's not really supposed to be to begin with. I'm all for playing the quarterfinals on college campuses because I believe it would create a magic that has never been there before. And I believe that large, metropolitan cities should be able to bid for the CFP semifinals and the championship game as well. The bowls would and should serve as a "NIT" for those teams that didn't make into the playoffs, but were still really good teams.
10-19-2016 12:07 PM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 08:31 AM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/the-on...38736.html

Forward thinking. If Big 12 gets auto-bid to 8-team playoff, it could be more advantageous for UT/OU to stick around.

He hates bowl. With a passion. Wrote "Death to the BCS."

The only hold-up I see in his plan is teams and fans like free trips during the December holidays. A first-round playoff game on home campuses...seems to eliminate that (or at least take that money/power out of the conferences hands).

I'm a large proponent of an 8-team playoff, although I still believe the way to do it is through the bowls (both my personal desires AND what I think could be most realistically sold to the commissioners and university presidents in the near future). In fact, it would be a hybrid of moving forward to a larger playoff while also throwing back to tradition.

(1) Quarterfinals are simple:

Rose: Big Ten vs. Pac-12
Sugar: SEC vs. at-large
Fiesta (or Cotton): Big 12 vs. at-large
Orange (or Peach): ACC vs. at-large

(2) One of the at-large spots goes to the highest ranked G5 school.

(3) Play those quarterfinal bowls on or around New Year's Day just as now.

(4) Play the *semifinals* 1 week to 10 days later at the home stadiums of the highest two remaining seeds.

(5) Play the championship game at a neutral site one week prior to the Super Bowl (which is an open weekend on the sports calendar).

This (a) keeps and arguably even enhances the traditions of the bowls, (b) lets the playoff participants to continue to receive a trip to a nice warm weather destination as a reward for their superior season (as opposed to a trip to Columbus), © makes the regular season seedings matter even in an extended playoff by granting the highest ranked semifinalists home field advantage and (d) the week before the Super Bowl is simply a great spot on the sports calendar to play the national championship game.

I'm not the first person to think of using the *semifinals* as where home fields come into play, but I believe it's an ingenious suggestion. Most 8-team playoff proposals (like Wetzel's attached) start with quarterfinals at schools' home fields, which would completely gut the bowl system. (I know Wetzel actually thinks of blowing up the bowl system as a feature instead of a bug, but the reality is that the bowls are the contractual mechanism through which the power conferences maintain their power status, so they aren't going away.) Keeping the quarterfinals within the bowls preserves that system and gives all 8 playoff participants a trip to a nice destination. The semifinals being at the home field is a counter to the travel fatigue for fans while also providing a very large incentive for teams to be as highly-ranked as possible.

Now, there are certainly practical considerations (e.g. schools with cold winters can't as easily get a stadium up and running on short notice in January), but I think this a semi-plausible way that an 8-team playoff could be sold to the commissioners and presidents.


I am against using the bowls for the college football playoff!! The bowls were never intended to be a part of a playoff to begin with, and being in the CFP to begin with decreases the value of the bowl and turns it into something that it's not really supposed to be to begin with. I'm all for playing the quarterfinals on college campuses because I believe it would create a magic that has never been there before. And I believe that large, metropolitan cities should be able to bid for the CFP semifinals and the championship game as well. The bowls would and should serve as a "NIT" for those teams that didn't make into the playoffs, but were still really good teams.
10-19-2016 12:07 PM
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Artifice Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
8 team playoff: 5 conference champions, G5 rep, and two at larges, seeding done via a selection committee with bias towards regionalism like in the basketball tournament.

And no, you are not locking the G5 out, no matter how much you may fantasize about it. Attempting to do so will trigger multiple lawsuits, injunctions, and likely congressional review.
10-19-2016 12:24 PM
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orangefan Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 10:14 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 10:10 AM)orangefan Wrote:  The timing of the Big 12's TV contract (ending after the 2024-25 season) lines up pretty nicely with the current College Football Playoff deal (ending after the 2025-26 season). The Big 12 should be able to defer extending its TV deal and GOR until it knows the CFP structure moving forward. In particular, expanding the CFP to 8 schools would require some lead time. The 4 teams format was approved two years in advance. A similar, or even greater, lead time would be necessary to go to 8 in order to arrange sites, etc.

Having said that, I for one like the 4 team format. It has preserved one of the things I like best about the sport - the "every week is a playoff game" feel. Moving to 8 would really diminish the importance of out of conference games. Out of conference season ending rivalry games may not even matter to schools preparing for a CCG. 3 or even 4 loss teams may make the playoff while 1 loss teams stay home.

Um, no.

2014 there were 8 0 or 1 loss teams.
2015 there were 6 0 or 1 loss P5 teams. (and only 7 2 loss teams)

so odds are really good that there wouldn't be any 1 loss p5 teams staying home in a 8 team playoff.

I guess that is true. I went back and looked at the final BCS standings for every year it was in place, and during that period, there were never more than 3 P5 schools with 1 loss that were not conference champions.

I do stand by the reduced importance of the regular season. Schools would effectively have two paths to the playoff - conference champion and at large. There would be no importance to winning OOC games on the conference championship path.
10-19-2016 12:38 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 12:07 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I am against using the bowls for the college football playoff!! The bowls were never intended to be a part of a playoff to begin with, and being in the CFP to begin with decreases the value of the bowl and turns it into something that it's not really supposed to be to begin with. I'm all for playing the quarterfinals on college campuses because I believe it would create a magic that has never been there before. And I believe that large, metropolitan cities should be able to bid for the CFP semifinals and the championship game as well. The bowls would and should serve as a "NIT" for those teams that didn't make into the playoffs, but were still really good teams.

It's OK to be against using the bowls for the playoff. I understand that argument. However, it's disingenuous to state that the value of bowls would somehow be decreased by *including* them within the playoff. What would devalue the bowls is shutting them out of the playoff altogether, which is why what was originally intended (not using the bowls) ended up being thrown out (and the bowls were used). Everyone should reasonably know that not including the bowls within an 8-team playoff scenario would kill the bowl system. You'd be removing at least 4 (those eliminated in on-campus quarterfinals) and up to 8 (if you don't use the bowls for any round) schools that have the fans that are actually the MOST motivated to travel and spend money on highest value bowl trips (as they're the ones that are playing for more than a consolation prize). Taking away those 4 to 8 schools that the elite money bowl system is essentially built upon is COMPLETELY devaluing such system.

Now, once again, writers like Wetzel actually think that is a great thing (as they can't stand the bowls in general). I don't personally agree with that sentiment, but it's at least a consistent argument to not use the bowls for the playoff if your desire is to see the bowl system to die entirely. What doesn't make sense is to argue that the bowls would somehow be better off WITHOUT being incorporated into the playoff.
(This post was last modified: 10-19-2016 12:42 PM by Frank the Tank.)
10-19-2016 12:41 PM
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
The ACC/SEC/B1G expand to 16-20 teams each, the PAC and B12 merge

Each conf has a play-off game between two divisions, those playoff games are the defacto placement games for the 4 team playoff
10-19-2016 12:45 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
Lets not forget the threat of all the G5 schools that could get into the playoffs. Scott of the PAC 12 and Slive hinted that the future realignment for the P5 would that the P5 will grab all the good teams out of the G5 and maybe an FCS team or two to help break the P5 away from the rest. As long as a Boise State, Hawaii, San Diego State, Air Force, UNR, Fresno State, Houston, Memphis, Navy, UCF, USF, Marshall, Western Kentucky, Arkansas State, Georgia Southern, Western Michigan, Central Michigan, Bowling Green, Toledo, Appalachian State, North Dakota State, Southern Mississippi, BYU, East Carolina and Eastern Washington? All have beaten P5 or have made it to one of the big bowl games? It would eliminate the access bowl completely for the G5. The Big 12 had a chance on getting BYU, Boise State, UCF, USF, Houston, Memphis, East Carolina, Air force, Cincinnati and so forth, but blew it. The other Power conference are not really that choosy about adding G5 type schools like Louisville, Utah and TCU. Any of the schools I listed are P5 type schools.
10-19-2016 12:45 PM
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allthatyoucantleavebehind Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  looking at the last 10 years-
2015 3 vs 6
2014 2 vs 4
2013 4 vs 5
2012 4 vs ur
2011 5 vs 10
2010 2 vs 5
2009 7 vs 8
2008 5 vs 8
2007 1 vs 7
2006 1 vs 8

so in 2 years would have helped the other conferences, but in 4 of the years would have hurt the other conferences. The other 4 close enough to no big deal....

I just do not think TV wants a scenario where a- the #1 team would have a tougher game than 7th team, and b- a rose situation like 2014 where 2 and 4 meet in 1st round....

I think you guys aren't really looking at Frank's proposal accurately. The bowls come first. Last year's scenario...
Rose Bowl--3 MSU vs. 6 Stanford
Sugar Bowl--2 Bama vs. 4 OU
Orange Bowl--1 Clemson vs. 7 Ohio State
Fiesta Bowl--5 Iowa vs. 8 Notre Dame

Assuming the games go to seed...on Saturday January 16, 2016...
5 Iowa at 1 Clemson
3 MSU at 2 Bama

Assuming the games go to seed...on Sunday January 31, 2016 (during Super Bowl bye week)...
Bama vs. Clemson at Glendale, Arizona

(And even if you assume an "all-upset" scenario...
8 Notre Dame at 4 OU
7 OSU at 6 Stanford
That's still not an "ugly" semifinal scenario with abysmal teams crashing the party. With mega-conferences these days, I don't think we'll have too many years where a conference champ is ranked outside the top 12...and I can live with that "fairness.")
10-19-2016 01:20 PM
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allthatyoucantleavebehind Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 12:38 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Um, no.

2014 there were 8 0 or 1 loss teams.
2015 there were 6 0 or 1 loss P5 teams. (and only 7 2 loss teams)

so odds are really good that there wouldn't be any 1 loss p5 teams staying home in a 8 team playoff.

I guess that is true. I went back and looked at the final BCS standings for every year it was in place, and during that period, there were never more than 3 P5 schools with 1 loss that were not conference champions.

I do stand by the reduced importance of the regular season. Schools would effectively have two paths to the playoff - conference champion and at large. There would be no importance to winning OOC games on the conference championship path.
[/quote]

And those BCS standings included years where the Big Ten only had 11 teams, the SEC 12, the Pac-12 10, and the ACC 12. We have since added 7 teams to that pot (the best of the rest)...so the chances of there being "fewer" 0 loss or 1 loss teams in the future is very, very low. Competition has increased...everybody has a CCG now (1 extra tough game for the best teams).
10-19-2016 01:27 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I'm a large proponent of an 8-team playoff, although I still believe the way to do it is through the bowls (both my personal desires AND what I think could be most realistically sold to the commissioners and university presidents in the near future). In fact, it would be a hybrid of moving forward to a larger playoff while also throwing back to tradition.

(1) Quarterfinals are simple:

Rose: Big Ten vs. Pac-12
Sugar: SEC vs. at-large
Fiesta (or Cotton): Big 12 vs. at-large
Orange (or Peach): ACC vs. at-large

There are still some people who want to cling to the traditional Rose Bowl matchup. No doubt the Pasadena types on the Rose Bowl Committee are among them. But the Pac-12 and Big Ten programs that have a realistic shot at the playoffs are not among those people, and would veto this idea. Being locked into a first-round game vs. a conference champ, while the other P5 conference champs will often or always get easier first-round matchups, would be an unacceptable disadvantage.
10-19-2016 01:29 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 01:20 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  looking at the last 10 years-
2015 3 vs 6
2014 2 vs 4
2013 4 vs 5
2012 4 vs ur
2011 5 vs 10
2010 2 vs 5
2009 7 vs 8
2008 5 vs 8
2007 1 vs 7
2006 1 vs 8

so in 2 years would have helped the other conferences, but in 4 of the years would have hurt the other conferences. The other 4 close enough to no big deal....

I just do not think TV wants a scenario where a- the #1 team would have a tougher game than 7th team, and b- a rose situation like 2014 where 2 and 4 meet in 1st round....

I think you guys aren't really looking at Frank's proposal accurately. The bowls come first. Last year's scenario...
Rose Bowl--3 MSU vs. 6 Stanford
Sugar Bowl--2 Bama vs. 4 OU
Orange Bowl--1 Clemson vs. 7 Ohio State
Fiesta Bowl--5 Iowa vs. 8 Notre Dame

Assuming the games go to seed...on Saturday January 16, 2016...
5 Iowa at 1 Clemson
3 MSU at 2 Bama

Assuming the games go to seed...on Sunday January 31, 2016 (during Super Bowl bye week)...
Bama vs. Clemson at Glendale, Arizona

(And even if you assume an "all-upset" scenario...
8 Notre Dame at 4 OU
7 OSU at 6 Stanford
That's still not an "ugly" semifinal scenario with abysmal teams crashing the party. With mega-conferences these days, I don't think we'll have too many years where a conference champ is ranked outside the top 12...and I can live with that "fairness.")

What you are saying is even worse. WTF should #5 and #8 get to play each other, while #2 and 4 play each other. Purists talk about valuing the regular season- that joke of a system totally makes the regular season meaningless. Why should runner up Iowa have an easier game of it vs champion Michigan St.
10-19-2016 01:30 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 01:29 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 09:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I'm a large proponent of an 8-team playoff, although I still believe the way to do it is through the bowls (both my personal desires AND what I think could be most realistically sold to the commissioners and university presidents in the near future). In fact, it would be a hybrid of moving forward to a larger playoff while also throwing back to tradition.

(1) Quarterfinals are simple:

Rose: Big Ten vs. Pac-12
Sugar: SEC vs. at-large
Fiesta (or Cotton): Big 12 vs. at-large
Orange (or Peach): ACC vs. at-large

There are still some people who want to cling to the traditional Rose Bowl matchup. No doubt the Pasadena types on the Rose Bowl Committee are among them. But the Pac-12 and Big Ten programs that have a realistic shot at the playoffs are not among those people, and would veto this idea. Being locked into a first-round game vs. a conference champ, while the other P5 conference champs will often or always get easier first-round matchups, would be an unacceptable disadvantage.

yep. I don't think tradition matters to as many folks now as it used to- and that number is diminishing each and every year. You have to remember, it's been 15 years now since the Rose Bowl was "pure". By the time this deal is done- that'll be up to 25 years. We're not going to go backwards.

And, I don't think the other conferences care anywhere near as much about tradition now as they used to either.
10-19-2016 01:34 PM
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allthatyoucantleavebehind Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 01:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:20 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  looking at the last 10 years-
2015 3 vs 6
2014 2 vs 4
2013 4 vs 5
2012 4 vs ur
2011 5 vs 10
2010 2 vs 5
2009 7 vs 8
2008 5 vs 8
2007 1 vs 7
2006 1 vs 8

so in 2 years would have helped the other conferences, but in 4 of the years would have hurt the other conferences. The other 4 close enough to no big deal....

I just do not think TV wants a scenario where a- the #1 team would have a tougher game than 7th team, and b- a rose situation like 2014 where 2 and 4 meet in 1st round....

I think you guys aren't really looking at Frank's proposal accurately. The bowls come first. Last year's scenario...
Rose Bowl--3 MSU vs. 6 Stanford
Sugar Bowl--2 Bama vs. 4 OU
Orange Bowl--1 Clemson vs. 7 Ohio State
Fiesta Bowl--5 Iowa vs. 8 Notre Dame

Assuming the games go to seed...on Saturday January 16, 2016...
5 Iowa at 1 Clemson
3 MSU at 2 Bama

Assuming the games go to seed...on Sunday January 31, 2016 (during Super Bowl bye week)...
Bama vs. Clemson at Glendale, Arizona

(And even if you assume an "all-upset" scenario...
8 Notre Dame at 4 OU
7 OSU at 6 Stanford
That's still not an "ugly" semifinal scenario with abysmal teams crashing the party. With mega-conferences these days, I don't think we'll have too many years where a conference champ is ranked outside the top 12...and I can live with that "fairness.")

What you are saying is even worse. WTF should #5 and #8 get to play each other, while #2 and 4 play each other. Purists talk about valuing the regular season- that joke of a system totally makes the regular season meaningless. Why should runner up Iowa have an easier game of it vs champion Michigan St.

Because seeds are essentially meaningless in CFB. We are always guessing when it comes to the post-season. At least our guesses have gotten better with the CFP 4-team playoff. Allowing 8-teams a shot makes our guessing even better.
10-19-2016 02:08 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 02:08 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:30 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 01:20 PM)allthatyoucantleavebehind Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 10:34 AM)stever20 Wrote:  looking at the last 10 years-
2015 3 vs 6
2014 2 vs 4
2013 4 vs 5
2012 4 vs ur
2011 5 vs 10
2010 2 vs 5
2009 7 vs 8
2008 5 vs 8
2007 1 vs 7
2006 1 vs 8

so in 2 years would have helped the other conferences, but in 4 of the years would have hurt the other conferences. The other 4 close enough to no big deal....

I just do not think TV wants a scenario where a- the #1 team would have a tougher game than 7th team, and b- a rose situation like 2014 where 2 and 4 meet in 1st round....

I think you guys aren't really looking at Frank's proposal accurately. The bowls come first. Last year's scenario...
Rose Bowl--3 MSU vs. 6 Stanford
Sugar Bowl--2 Bama vs. 4 OU
Orange Bowl--1 Clemson vs. 7 Ohio State
Fiesta Bowl--5 Iowa vs. 8 Notre Dame

Assuming the games go to seed...on Saturday January 16, 2016...
5 Iowa at 1 Clemson
3 MSU at 2 Bama

Assuming the games go to seed...on Sunday January 31, 2016 (during Super Bowl bye week)...
Bama vs. Clemson at Glendale, Arizona

(And even if you assume an "all-upset" scenario...
8 Notre Dame at 4 OU
7 OSU at 6 Stanford
That's still not an "ugly" semifinal scenario with abysmal teams crashing the party. With mega-conferences these days, I don't think we'll have too many years where a conference champ is ranked outside the top 12...and I can live with that "fairness.")

What you are saying is even worse. WTF should #5 and #8 get to play each other, while #2 and 4 play each other. Purists talk about valuing the regular season- that joke of a system totally makes the regular season meaningless. Why should runner up Iowa have an easier game of it vs champion Michigan St.

Because seeds are essentially meaningless in CFB. We are always guessing when it comes to the post-season. At least our guesses have gotten better with the CFP 4-team playoff. Allowing 8-teams a shot makes our guessing even better.

Well the CFP pretty much thinks that seeds mean something because they seed the playoff 1-4.

But even with your logic-
why should champion Michigan St who would have to play champion Stanford have a tougher game than runner up iowa who would get to play Notre Dame(who Stanford beat).
10-19-2016 02:28 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
and I'm sorry- but if you think the public would accept a scenario where 2 top 4 teams would play in a QF- I think you are a joke. Folks are used to think like the NCAA tournament with the specific seedings.
10-19-2016 02:32 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 02:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  and I'm sorry- but if you think the public would accept a scenario where 2 top 4 teams would play in a QF- I think you are a joke. Folks are used to think like the NCAA tournament with the specific seedings.

I don't think seeding is irrelevant, but I do think that they're overrated. The seeds are simply opinions from a particular group of people - they aren't the Ten Commandments.

Also, I think the problem is that you're comparing this to the matchups in the NCAA Tournament (which isn't even a pure straight 1-to-68 S-curve seeding exercise, anyway, as matchups are shifted to avoid first round conference matchups). Instead, you ought to think of it more like the matchups in the NFL playoffs, where it is NOT necessarily straight seeding. In the NFL, a division winner will receive home field advantage over a wild card team even if that wild card team has a better record. MLB does the same thing. As a result, you certainly can encounter situations where the best 2 teams from a conference or league meet in an earlier round - it happens quite frequently. We're essentially applying the same notion to college football where each P5 conference champ gets assigned to its "home bowl" (because they clinched a championship just like the NFL and MLB division champs) while the at-large schools don't get that same benefit. I would rather give a lot more weight in providing conference champs that played their way in without the aid of a committee some certainty that they are playing in a friendly bowl environment (e.g. the SEC champ should always get to be in New Orleans instead of getting sent to Phoenix).
10-19-2016 04:07 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 04:07 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 02:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  and I'm sorry- but if you think the public would accept a scenario where 2 top 4 teams would play in a QF- I think you are a joke. Folks are used to think like the NCAA tournament with the specific seedings.

I don't think seeding is irrelevant, but I do think that they're overrated. The seeds are simply opinions from a particular group of people - they aren't the Ten Commandments.

Also, I think the problem is that you're comparing this to the matchups in the NCAA Tournament (which isn't even a pure straight 1-to-68 S-curve seeding exercise, anyway, as matchups are shifted to avoid first round conference matchups). Instead, you ought to think of it more like the matchups in the NFL playoffs, where it is NOT necessarily straight seeding. In the NFL, a division winner will receive home field advantage over a wild card team even if that wild card team has a better record. MLB does the same thing. As a result, you certainly can encounter situations where the best 2 teams from a conference or league meet in an earlier round - it happens quite frequently. We're essentially applying the same notion to college football where each P5 conference champ gets assigned to its "home bowl" (because they clinched a championship just like the NFL and MLB division champs) while the at-large schools don't get that same benefit. I would rather give a lot more weight in providing conference champs that played their way in without the aid of a committee some certainty that they are playing in a friendly bowl environment (e.g. the SEC champ should always get to be in New Orleans instead of getting sent to Phoenix).

But in a 8 team situation, it's pretty easy to tell the difference like last year between Clemson and Notre Dame.

And the problem in a 8 team situation is that you are wanting 2 champions guaranteed to see each other no matter what. And some years, those teams have no business meeting in the 1st round. NONE.

I think if there was any doubt that seeds matter to the CFP was blown out of the water in the very first year where the committee could easily have had it Oregon/Ohio St and Alabama/Florida St- but didn't.
10-19-2016 04:32 PM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 12:41 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 12:07 PM)DawgNBama Wrote:  I am against using the bowls for the college football playoff!! The bowls were never intended to be a part of a playoff to begin with, and being in the CFP to begin with decreases the value of the bowl and turns it into something that it's not really supposed to be to begin with. I'm all for playing the quarterfinals on college campuses because I believe it would create a magic that has never been there before. And I believe that large, metropolitan cities should be able to bid for the CFP semifinals and the championship game as well. The bowls would and should serve as a "NIT" for those teams that didn't make into the playoffs, but were still really good teams.

It's OK to be against using the bowls for the playoff. I understand that argument. However, it's disingenuous to state that the value of bowls would somehow be decreased by *including* them within the playoff. What would devalue the bowls is shutting them out of the playoff altogether, which is why what was originally intended (not using the bowls) ended up being thrown out (and the bowls were used). Everyone should reasonably know that not including the bowls within an 8-team playoff scenario would kill the bowl system. You'd be removing at least 4 (those eliminated in on-campus quarterfinals) and up to 8 (if you don't use the bowls for any round) schools that have the fans that are actually the MOST motivated to travel and spend money on highest value bowl trips (as they're the ones that are playing for more than a consolation prize). Taking away those 4 to 8 schools that the elite money bowl system is essentially built upon is COMPLETELY devaluing such system.

Now, once again, writers like Wetzel actually think that is a great thing (as they can't stand the bowls in general). I don't personally agree with that sentiment, but it's at least a consistent argument to not use the bowls for the playoff if your desire is to see the bowl system to die entirely. What doesn't make sense is to argue that the bowls would somehow be better off WITHOUT being incorporated into the playoff.

Don't want the bowl system to die, but it seems like being a part of a playoff would devalue its meaning.
10-19-2016 05:57 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Yahoo's Wetzel: 8-team playoff is Big 12's key to survival
(10-19-2016 04:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 04:07 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-19-2016 02:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  and I'm sorry- but if you think the public would accept a scenario where 2 top 4 teams would play in a QF- I think you are a joke. Folks are used to think like the NCAA tournament with the specific seedings.

I don't think seeding is irrelevant, but I do think that they're overrated. The seeds are simply opinions from a particular group of people - they aren't the Ten Commandments.

Also, I think the problem is that you're comparing this to the matchups in the NCAA Tournament (which isn't even a pure straight 1-to-68 S-curve seeding exercise, anyway, as matchups are shifted to avoid first round conference matchups). Instead, you ought to think of it more like the matchups in the NFL playoffs, where it is NOT necessarily straight seeding. In the NFL, a division winner will receive home field advantage over a wild card team even if that wild card team has a better record. MLB does the same thing. As a result, you certainly can encounter situations where the best 2 teams from a conference or league meet in an earlier round - it happens quite frequently. We're essentially applying the same notion to college football where each P5 conference champ gets assigned to its "home bowl" (because they clinched a championship just like the NFL and MLB division champs) while the at-large schools don't get that same benefit. I would rather give a lot more weight in providing conference champs that played their way in without the aid of a committee some certainty that they are playing in a friendly bowl environment (e.g. the SEC champ should always get to be in New Orleans instead of getting sent to Phoenix).

But in a 8 team situation, it's pretty easy to tell the difference like last year between Clemson and Notre Dame.

And the problem in a 8 team situation is that you are wanting 2 champions guaranteed to see each other no matter what. And some years, those teams have no business meeting in the 1st round. NONE.

I think if there was any doubt that seeds matter to the CFP was blown out of the water in the very first year where the committee could easily have had it Oregon/Ohio St and Alabama/Florida St- but didn't.

I'm not sure that I follow your second paragraph. 2 P5 champs will ALWAYS be guaranteed to meet each other in the first round of an 8-team playoff whether we do it the way that I suggested with the bowls or if we want to do straight seeding. That's unavoidable as long as there are 5 power conferences.

I also don't really follow your last paragraph. The CFP committee's job is to provide seeding, so of course it matters to *them*. Of course they're not going to say that seeds don't matter when the reason for their entire existence is to seed teams! My personal belief is that the seeds themselves are overrated in college football compared to who actually gets in (which is significantly more important), especially in a scenario where we will have P5 auto-bids. It's like saying there's a magic line between a 1-seed versus a 2-seed in the NCAA Tournament (which is as deep as an 8-team football playoff would go). The actual quality between those teams from year-to-year generally isn't the canyon that you're making it out to be (or else we would have all 4 #1 seeds make it to the Final Four all of the time).

It's not just about the Rose Bowl matchup. I think it's shortsighted to have intra-conference games or any rematches in the quarterfinal round simply in the name of straight seeding, too. I just don't think seeds in and of themselves are the end all be all or infallible (especially when they're solely based on the qualitative opinions of a committee as opposed to any quantitative data).
10-19-2016 06:31 PM
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