(09-29-2016 10:30 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Missouri and Nebraska aren't anything special academically.

They might not be but I'm sure without not even looking up they're highly regarded better academically than TCU and West Virginia. I personally don't really care much about academic snobbery. Every school has a different mission and every student can make the best of it. But school presidents do care, just look at the Sun Belt presidents blocking Liberty's appilication or the PAC-12 recommending its schools not to schedule Grand Canyon.

That's more to do with them being religious, scam, for-profit schools.

(09-29-2016 10:46 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  That's more to do with them being religious, scam, for-profit schools.

Then you agree school presidents really do care about who they're associated with. The Big Ten said Texas had a "Tech" problem, the MWC looked down on Boise State because "it wasn't too far removed from offering truck driving certificates", the ACC didn't think high enough of West Virginia's academics. Of course those "concerns" go down when they have defections in the case of Boise in the MWC and Louisville in the ACC. If there's another major realignment and it goes all the way down to the Sun Belt, then maybe Liberty won't look that bad anymore.

So what I'm trying to say is, yes, school presidents can be snobby but they can be hypocrites too when it's convenient to them.

(09-29-2016 02:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The ACC changed its long-time historical stances regarding institutional fit and academics when Maryland defected to essentially pick the best "football school" possible. In terms of being a "football school", WVU was even higher on the pecking order than Louisville at that time. So, the football-driven reasons why the ACC picked Louisville over UConn were actually even more in favor of the ACC picking WVU over UConn in this hypothetical.

There's no reason to think the ACC saw WV as 'higher on the pecking order' than Louisville. Not any time in this century, anyway.

Historically the ACC has sought year-round all-sports programs with solid, upwardly mobile academics. The league values stability and regards membership votes as 60- to 100-year decisions. As well it should.

Louisville had an exciting football program to offer. Unlike WV, it offered a formidable history in basketball and baseball with strengths in other sports. It had market, it had location, it had Jurich.

The institutional fit was better than with WV. If you're going to make compromises there, you may as well not compromise much. You pick an institution with the kind of upside that suggests things will improve in a big way down the road. Louisville had wine-and-cheese boosters who followed equestrian sports; WV had fans who burn couches.

The most you can argue is that in football the case for Louisville versus WV was a tie. Winner on every other point: Louisville.

Louisville was a school the ACC hoops crowd could get behind and the ACC gridiron crowd could get behind, while drawing support from every other member of the conference that had once played in the old Big East.

We have every reason to suppose that had the ACC missed out on Louisville, Cincinnati or Connecticut would have got a bid before WV as well.

As this discussion is a 'what if' game, we'll never know for sure. Available evidence offers no reason, though, to suppose WV enjoyed any kind of substantial advantage over its neighbours. It is possible that a one-sport mentality in the Big 12 paved WV's way to that league, but things work differently in the ACC.

Which is why you see the two schools where you do right now.

They are asking the wrong question. The real question should be what if the Big12 picked both WV and Louisville?

The revisionist history is strong in this one....

A few points of clarification / Follow the timeline

1. August 12, 2011: Louisville to The Big 12 "Thanks but No Thanks" reported here 8/12/11

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/ulbeat/...ks-big-12/

2. September 11, 2011: Pitt and Syracuse quietly jump to The ACC. Announced on 9/10/11. Reported here 9/11/11

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story...eam-league

3. September 15, 2011: Oliver Luck says:

Luck was in a car driving over to Maryland for West Virginia’s football game against the Terps when he received confirmation that Pitt and Syracuse were leaving the Big East.



“I got to the game and I found Jim Clements,” he said. “I said, ‘Jim the first thing I think we should do is I will call every AD that I have a personal relationship with in the ACC. And I’m going to ask them point-blank, 'Is there any possibility of West Virginia being considered for admission into the ACC? - because it’s obvious you’re growing.' Then I said to Jim, ‘I think you should do the same with the ACC presidents.’”

When Luck and Clements got back together to compare notes, the responses they got were unanimous – there was no interest in WVU. Counting the two times West Virginia failed to get into the league when it was created, and the four different times the conference chose to expand through the years, that’s six different occasions that the potential was there for West Virginia to join the ACC and couldn’t.

So when it became common knowledge that Missouri was exploring a move to the SEC, that’s when West Virginia became fully committed to making a move to the southwest. Luck said he knew if the Big 12 was interested in coming to this part of the country, and Pitt was not a willing participant, then the league might be interested in West Virginia University as a state flagship institution.


http://www.wvusports.com/page.cfm?story=25902


Note: Luck says himself that he called The ACC 1st. He said he was at the Maryland vs. WVU game. The played on September 17th that year.

Another tidbit from the linked WVU piece:

"As it turned out, West Virginia almost was. Louisville, which tried to jump ahead of WVU in line to get into the Big 12, eventually replaced Maryland in the ACC. Rutgers, which was left looking in from the outside, has since found a home in the Big Ten."

You would think that a university could follow a timeline. When Louisville told The Big 12 "No Thanks" in August as Jurich stated, How could Louisville jump ahead of WVU with the Big 12 when Louisville had been talking with them at least a month earlier? But I digress...

4. September 17, 2011 - Jurich is noticeably agitated (I call it pissed)

Louisville athletic director Tom Jurich didn't waste time denouncing the move.

Mr. Jurich said during a video interview on the website of the Louisville Courier-Journal that Pitt Chancellor Mark Nordenberg has violated the trust of the rest of the conference members and called the matter "slippery."

He said that Pitt and Syracuse should be ashamed of themselves for not at least picking up the phone and informing the conference they were leaving.

"[Why this is happening now], I think is a question for Pittsburgh's [Chancellor Nordenberg]," Mr. Jurich said. "I think that is a question a lot of people would like answered.

"I talked to [Big East commissioner John Marinatto] today a couple times, he was stunned. I think he at least deserved a phone call, he didn't need to hear about it from" a reporter.

Mr. Jurich added that he was surprised by the developments because he doesn't believe Pitt adds anything to the ACC.

"I didn't believe it because Pittsburgh was involved in it," he said. "I just didn't see the value they would bring to that league at all. That is no slap at Pittsburgh, but I didn't see where that fit was. And then [Nordenberg] was the chair of the executive committee in our conference and he was keeping everyone together and asked everybody to be unified, and so I think everybody trusted him."

(The real reason Louisville told The Big 12 "No Thanks")

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/Pitt/...1109180175


5. September 20, 2011 - Reports surface The SEC told WVU no. Can't find anything credible to link. A few Big East based SB Nation sites.

6. October 28, 2011 - The Big 12 invites WVU

Fast forward to November 2012:

7. November 16, 2011: Maryland SB Nation site reports rumors of Big 10 and Maryland talking

8. November 17, 2011 - Jurich finds out from Pat Forde that Maryland is leaving ACC while on vacation in Florida

http://loumag.epubxp.com/i/111400-mar-2013/68

9. November 18, 2011: UConn made favorite by ESPN to join ACC

"If these dominoes were to fall then Connecticut would emerge as the most likely candidate to fill Maryland's spot in the ACC. The ACC will be at 14 members in 2013-14 with the addition of the Big East's Pittsburgh and Syracuse and 15 in all sports except football when Notre Dame joins, which could be as early as fall 2013."

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...ources-say

10. November 19, 2011: Maryland leaves ACC

11. November 20, 2011: Maryland joins The Big Ten

12. November 20, 2011: Louisville could beat out UConn for ACC per Andy Katz

"UConn still in the dark on ACC next move. Don't assume Huskies. Louisville is a serious player here to bump out UConn for 14th FB ACC spot."

7:05 AM - 20 Nov 2012

https://twitter.com/espnandykatz/status/...2225154048

13. November 28: Louisville invited to join ACC

It's just My opinion, but from the article where it states Louisville is currently #3 going into a match up with #5 Clemson this week and with Lamar Jackson as the Heisman's leading candidate would have been in the Big 12. I question that line because #1 We would have likely still of had Charlie Strong as HC and Texas wouldn't have Him. Petrino might have been at an SEC School by now. Playing out in the far Midwest, We likely wouldn't have had Lamar Jackson as a QB, or Todd G. as Defensive coordinator , recruiting base likely out of Texas , Oklahoma instead of Georgia, Florida, Ohio . So all & all We came out with the Best possible situation We ever could of had. Thank You ACC. We will always Rep the conference well.

(09-29-2016 10:36 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(09-29-2016 10:30 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Missouri and Nebraska aren't anything special academically.

They might not be but I'm sure without not even looking up they're highly regarded better academically than TCU and West Virginia. I personally don't really care much about academic snobbery. Every school has a different mission and every student can make the best of it. But school presidents do care, just look at the Sun Belt presidents blocking Liberty's appilication or the PAC-12 recommending its schools not to schedule Grand Canyon.

Nebraska and Missouri are more highly regarded than TCU on the graduate level, but not undergraduate. TCU couldn't get away with their tuition rates otherwise!

(09-30-2016 04:11 AM)Gitanole Wrote:  

(09-29-2016 02:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The ACC changed its long-time historical stances regarding institutional fit and academics when Maryland defected to essentially pick the best "football school" possible. In terms of being a "football school", WVU was even higher on the pecking order than Louisville at that time. So, the football-driven reasons why the ACC picked Louisville over UConn were actually even more in favor of the ACC picking WVU over UConn in this hypothetical.

There's no reason to think the ACC saw WV as 'higher on the pecking order' than Louisville. Not any time in this century, anyway.

Historically the ACC has sought year-round all-sports programs with solid, upwardly mobile academics. The league values stability and regards membership votes as 60- to 100-year decisions. As well it should.

Louisville had an exciting football program to offer. Unlike WV, it offered a formidable history in basketball and baseball with strengths in other sports. It had market, it had location, it had Jurich.

The institutional fit was better than with WV. If you're going to make compromises there, you may as well not compromise much. You pick an institution with the kind of upside that suggests things will improve in a big way down the road. Louisville had wine-and-cheese boosters who followed equestrian sports; WV had fans who burn couches.

The most you can argue is that in football the case for Louisville versus WV was a tie. Winner on every other point: Louisville.

Louisville was a school the ACC hoops crowd could get behind and the ACC gridiron crowd could get behind, while drawing support from every other member of the conference that had once played in the old Big East.

We have every reason to suppose that had the ACC missed out on Louisville, Cincinnati or Connecticut would have got a bid before WV as well.

As this discussion is a 'what if' game, we'll never know for sure. Available evidence offers no reason, though, to suppose WV enjoyed any kind of substantial advantage over its neighbours. It is possible that a one-sport mentality in the Big 12 paved WV's way to that league, but things work differently in the ACC.

Which is why you see the two schools where you do right now.

WVU was well ahead of Louisville in football at the time of the Big 12 decision. It wasn't close. WVU at the time had more BCS bowl wins than the entire ACC combined (3-0 vs. 2-13).

WVU isn't at UL's level in basketball, but they have had good, competitive programs and did have Jerry West and were in the final 4 in 2010.

All around sports, they were pretty comparable. UL's baseball came around before the ACC replacement, but after the Big 12 replacement.

UL is probably less of an institutional fit in the ACC than WVU. It has that commuter piece while WVU is a state flagship.

If all around sports and institutional fit were that big a factor, UConn would have beaten out UL hands down. But UL had far better football and generated bigger revenues.

actually at the time of the Big 12 decision WVU had 2 BCS bowl wins. The 2011 Orange Bowl had not happened yet.

As far as your claim that if all around sports and institutional fit were a big factor, UConn would have beaten Louisville hands down- bull ****. football- Louisville. MBB- Louisville(when the decision was made, Louisville had made the final 4 in '12, UConn was a 9 seed and lost 1st round). Oh, and UConn's coach Jim Calhoun had retired 2 months prior. Baseball- Louisville was in the NCAA tournament, UConn wasn't. So what exactly was UConn ahead of Louisville? Women's basketball? Ok, but what else? Where is this great UConn all around sports program?

As CJ's links prove, the Big 12 did offer UofL. They did choose UofL. The timing was just wrong.

Still amazing that the B12 didn't have the foresight to add both schools or take 3 schools. The parallels with the present day situation are hilarious. And the dominoes that would have fallen would have been interesting too. TCU, if not chosen as a 3rd school, would not have reneged on their AAC agreement which likely would have in turn convinced Boise State and SD State to take their offer, and Cincinnati or UConn (from what has been said, Cincy was getting stronger consideration than UConn) might be in the ACC today as Maryland's replacement. Probably only one of Tulsa, Tulane and ECU might have ended up getting an invite as a result (likely ECU since they were being considered by the Big East for years), and Tulsa may up ended up in the Mountain West (or ended up staying in CUSA) due to the old Big East taking so many schools from CUSA and the two best programs in the MWC.

Big 12: Louisville instead of TCU

AAC: USF, UCF, Temple, UConn, ECU, TCU, SMU, Houston, Navy, Memphis, Boise State, San Diego State (no Tulane, Tulsa)

ACC: Cincinnati instead of Louisville

MWC: lost Boise and SD State as well as BYU, add the same ex-WAC teams as well as two of Tulsa, UTEP, Rice, Idaho or NM State

West Virginia, Louisville and Cincinnati (Pittsburgh still turns them down) to the Big 12. ACC has to had Connecticut to replace Maryland. This move angers Florida State and Clemson, who leave to the Big 12 within 3-5 years.

The Big 12 looks like this:
West- Tech Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
East- Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Louisville, Florida State, Clemson

Everyone is happy...

In ten years or so, none of this will matter. The P5 will evolve and the landscape will look much different. I have felt this way for years.

(09-30-2016 09:34 AM)Tech Savy Wrote:  West Virginia, Louisville and Cincinnati (Pittsburgh still turns them down) to the Big 12. ACC has to had Connecticut to replace Maryland. This move angers Florida State and Clemson, who leave to the Big 12 within 3-5 years.

The Big 12 looks like this:
West- Tech Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
East- Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Louisville, Florida State, Clemson

Everyone is happy...

and if this happened, you would have saw Georgia Tech and Virginia accepting the B1G's offer, shortly followed by UNC and Duke and the leftovers of the ACC poach the AAC

OR

GT and UVA to B1G only while UNC/Duke stays, and the ACC takes Temple and Memphis from the AAC and focus on being even more basketball-centric than before.

(09-30-2016 09:34 AM)Tech Savy Wrote:  West Virginia, Louisville and Cincinnati (Pittsburgh still turns them down) to the Big 12. ACC has to had Connecticut to replace Maryland. This move angers Florida State and Clemson, who leave to the Big 12 within 3-5 years.

The Big 12 looks like this:
West- Tech Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kansas, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State
East- Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, West Virginia, Louisville, Florida State, Clemson

Everyone is happy...

Im just going to say that none of this would have happened this way. The way that things actually turned out, no one predicted things would happen the way they did. There are so many moving parts and different scenarios that its impossible to predict how things would have turned out, just like it was impossible to predict, in advance, how things actually turned out.

The one x factor in things with regards to if Cincy, WVU, and Louisville- is does the split occur sooner. Does ND go to the ACC sooner? With that presumably a grant of rights- that would have kept Maryland in the fold. It's a fascinating thing to think about.

(09-30-2016 08:40 AM)stever20 Wrote:  actually at the time of the Big 12 decision WVU had 2 BCS bowl wins. The 2011 Orange Bowl had not happened yet.

As far as your claim that if all around sports and institutional fit were a big factor, UConn would have beaten Louisville hands down- bull ****. football- Louisville. MBB- Louisville(when the decision was made, Louisville had made the final 4 in '12, UConn was a 9 seed and lost 1st round). Oh, and UConn's coach Jim Calhoun had retired 2 months prior. Baseball- Louisville was in the NCAA tournament, UConn wasn't. So what exactly was UConn ahead of Louisville? Women's basketball? Ok, but what else? Where is this great UConn all around sports program?

National championships for UConn
Men's bb 4
Women's bb 11
Men's soccer 2
Women's field hockey 4

National championships for Louisville
Men's bb 3

UConn is traditionally near the top of the G5 in the Director's cup standings.

I did look up 2012 and 2013 when the ACC was expanding and UL did score higher than UConn in the Director's Cup in both those years, but both scored pretty well.

final 2011-12 standings- Louisville was 32, UConn was 61
final 2010-11 standings- Louisville was 34, UConn was 44
Final 2009-10 standings- Louisville was 41, UConn was 62

those were the 3 most recent years prior to the expansion

so the all around piece- Louisville was stronger than UConn.

Definitely tough to say that UConn would have beaten Louisville hands down like you did. When for the 3 years running before, Louisville had the stronger program.

If it was the ACC who became raided (instead of the Big 12), you probably don't see Notre Dame take their scheduling alliance offer. Notre Dame, in turn, probably remains with the C7 in the Big East for non-football sports and remains a full independent for football. In order to go to 12, they presumably look at Saint Louis/Dayton.